Lizz Winstead: Lizz Free Or Die
by Nicole Powers for SuicideGirls (http://suicidegirls.com/)

Lizz Winstead is one of the bravest comedians around today. She talks about abortion with a rare candor, as is a staunch supporter of Planned Parenthood. Her work raising awareness and funds (over a million dollars to date!) for the organization has not surprisingly raised the ire of the religious right, but she stands firm, fighting for women’s reproductive rights at a time when in recent history they’ve never been more in peril.

In her new book, Lizz Free Or Die, she devotes a chapter to her own experience as a frightened and bewildered teenager who discovered she was pregnant, and who was even more frightened and bewildered by the reactions of the adults she trusted to give her honest advice, help, and support.

The book also features essays, which are poignant and hilarious in equal parts, on her upbringing in a conservative Catholic family, her coming of age as a stand up comedian in Minneapolis, the roots of The Daily Show which she co-created, and the rise and fall of Air America which she co-founded.

We caught up with Lizz by phone. Though the native Minnesotan currently calls New York home, she spoke to us from Texas where she’d just done one of her numerous Planned Parenthood stand up fundraising shows. This particular one raised money for a clinic that had recently lost every penny of its state funding for essential community services such as teen pregnancy testing and health care.

Nicole Powers: I’m such an admirer of your work with Planned Parenthood and that fact that you are so honest and open about the fact that you had an abortion.

Lizz Winstead: Well I want ladies to not feel ashamed of that. It just feels crazy at this point.

NP: In the book there’s a chapter, All Knocked Up, in which you talk about your experiences as a pregnant teenager. How old were you at the time?

LW: I was seventeen. It was the first time I ever had sex to top it all off.

NP: It’s this horrific tale; You’re lost and confused about what to do and you go to a “Kare Klinic” where the staff tell you that you have two choices: “mommy or murder.”

LW: Right. It’s so interesting, because when I wrote this story it didn’t even occur to me to write about actually having an abortion. Because having an abortion wasn’t the thing that permeated with me. The thing that permeated with me was being in trouble…and finding a place that masked itself as being some place that would help me, and having it be this place that was shaming and damning, and that tried to shape me as a person. To me, that was a story that women encounter everyday.

People kept saying to me, “Why didn’t you write about having an abortion?” [And I’d say,] “Because that isn’t the point at all. That was actually freeing to me.” That was the part that actually let me take a breath and allowed me to pursue what would be the best thing for me, which wasn’t motherhood. To this day I know that I never want to be a mother. At 17 I didn’t, at eight I didn’t, and at 50 I don’t, and so, thank god, you know.

NP: So what was more traumatic than the actual abortion was people’s reaction to it, and the reaction of people that you looked up to and trusted.

LW: They put themselves out there to be people who care about you and look out for your best interests, and they don’t. They are masquerading as doctors and people of god.

NP: This was over 30 years ago, but since then, with the current War on Women, it seems like we’ve gone backwards, which is the really scary thing.

LW: It’s true. I’m in Austin, Texas right now. I just did this fundraiser last night. Texas is one of the states that has been hit harder than anybody. Every place I have gone – and I’ve done 21 or 22 of these benefits in the past year – they said that they’d never seen it this bad since pre-Roe [v. Wade]. It’s just glaring, the shocking nature of how they’re twisting the truth and how they’re manipulating legislation. People don’t even really understand what’s in these bills. They twist it and they have all these ad dollars and they make it all about abortion. They don’t understand that it means in vitro fertilization. When people say there is a personhood amendment, that means you can’t freeze your eggs, you can’t have in vitro or artificial insemination. You can’t do all of this stuff. It’s kind of astounding.

NP: What worries me beyond personhood for fetuses (and zygotes!), and the whole abortion is murder push from a legal perspective, is that in some states they are giving doctors permission to lie to women about their health if they think that telling the truth will result in the mother seeking an abortion. To me, that is the potential murder of the mother, because a woman is not being allowed to make an informed choice about her own health. It’s putting the health of a clump of cells above the health of an actual human being. If doctors are being allowed to do that, in essence you are legislating for the murder of the mother.

LW: That’s exactly right. When you are saying the worth of a fertilized egg is the same as a full-fledged woman with dreams and ideals and hopes and families and goals – it’s society gone mad quite frankly.

NP: Also, the right pretend that they are pro-life, but if you’re really pro-life and are going to force women to have children, you have to be willing to feed and take care of them until they are able to do so themselves.

LW: And then we watch them cutting the CHIP program and any kind of pre-school food program and any wellness care programs for single mothers.

NP: Even food stamps.

LW: There’s one Republican who says that single motherhood is like a crime…They say motherhood is the hardest job in the world, which I agree with, then why are we demanding or requiring a 13-year old who happened to get pregnant to do it? We don’t even let 13-year olds drive or do anything by themselves. You can’t have it both ways.

NP: I’m just appalled that we as a society are even having these kind of debates in this day and age. It’s so backward that I feel betrayed by the left for even being tolerant of these utterly hateful, uninformed, and barbaric opinions.

LW: The problem is we don’t have the same infrastructure of media to battle these things. The right have Fox News and then the Fox News talking points get reported on Breitbart and Red State and Daily Caller. We just don’t have that infrastructure where something interesting on Rachel Maddow is the talking point on all these strong places that are fully funded. These amazing lefty blogs are constantly begging for money and struggling and trying to get funding. They just don’t have the financial backing the way the right does. That’s the part that frustrates me. I wish that people on the left who have the money to put into messaging would understand how and where they need to support.

I don’t know if you feel like this, but I do, that so much of what we do is combating the lies rather than being able to talk about what’s happening and what Planned Parenthood does, or whatever it is that they are trying to cut and the good that it does. We are just saying, no that’s not true, that’s not true, and then all of a sudden, before you know it, show over.

NP: The disinformation has reached epidemic proportions. People can’t recognize the truth even if they are slapped in the face with it.

LW: That’s right. When we do take to it, with Susan G. Komen or with this War on Women, with these battles now, we’re actually winning in some states. Planned Parenthood is seeing their funding dollars going up because people recognize what Planned Parenthood does. And whether women want to privately or publicly go forward, they know that they have used the services of these places, they know…I just wish that more faces could be put on it, and that more women would stand up and say “I used Planned Parenthood.” I wish we would defend it the way that we embrace it as this amazing community service. They are a national treasure to me.

NP: That’s right, you’re not just defunding abortions, when you defund Planned Parenthood, you’re defunding mammograms and cervical cancer screenings too.

LW: That’s exactly right. And birth control. When it boils down to it, why are we giving any credence to anybody who says “I would like to reduce the number of abortions and the way that I want to do that is to remove all access to birth control.” Anybody who says that should just be removed from a sane conversation. It shouldn’t be listened to. And they’re being elected and stuff. It’s like, oh my god, really?

NP: Their definition of where life begins is when the egg is fertilized…

LW: …And it’s not even implanted! So basically there’s this weird, oh wait, I’m pregnant before I’m pregnant? Is that what you’re saying?

NP: It’s just so frustrating, and like you say, there isn’t the left wing media to combat the right wing crazy. My fear is that there will never be because of the nature of money and where it flows from. The right supports the capitalist agenda, so it supports the mainstream news media that serves as their propaganda machine. You’re never going to get the mainstream media really discussing Citizens United and the like because for them it’s the goose that laid the golden egg. It’s the source of unprecedented amounts of advertising money that is going to be spent on TV and radio in the run up to the election. This is at a time when many companies can’t afford marketing spends, so it’s like manna from heaven.

LW: And most people don’t even know what Citizens United is. What people don’t know is astounding…Thirty percent of my audience — I was kind of doing this little internal poll — haven’t even heard of the Mitt Romney with the dog on top of the car story. And these are people who are knowledgeable.

It is astounding how people don’t know what ALEC is, they don’t know what Citizens United is, they don’t know who the Koch brothers are. If we could do some fun campaign where we are explaining it, in a way almost like School of Rock if you will, to try to just enlighten people about who is actually running their “democracy” and that they don’t really have one. We pretend we have a democracy, but let’s be honest, Citizens United has just destroyed it. We don’t have one anymore.

NP: One of the reasons that women’s rights in particular are getting so pummeled is because of our lack of representation in politics.

LW: That’s exactly right. That’s why for me, doing this Planned Parenthood tour, I do my stand up show and then at the end I read that essay from my book – to inspire women to tell their stories. Because if we don’t tell our own stories, they are going to tell our stories for us – that’s just not acceptable to me. I will not allow someone to tell my story. I just won’t. More women [need to] come forward and start telling their stories, and demand to sit at that table, that’s what we need to do.

NP: But you can understand why they don’t when you get young students who tell their stories about the difficulty they experienced getting birth control being lambasted as “sluts” and “prostitutes.”.

LW: Yes, that’s exactly right.

NP: The fact that Rush Limbaugh still has a job is just astounding to me.

LW: I completely agree. It is shocking. So every woman that uses birth control is a whore? Then we’re all whores. Yay whores!

NP: By the same token, is every man that’s ever used a condom a man-whore? Probably not.

LW: Isn’t that amazing? What I find so interesting is that the uterus is the only non-vital organ that society has deemed if you have one you are somehow intrinsically predisposed to want to use it…I’m actually a woman who never wanted kids, and yet when you say that, the right will demonize you as being woman hating, and mother hating, and all this stuff. It is maddening. The more we tell our stories, the more they have to look at all of us as individuals, and the more their crazy belief system they’ve put in place is invalidated – with every single voice that speaks out. I hope women realize that this falls in our lap. It’s women, and the men who support us, who need to start speaking out.

NP: What’s worrying as well is that in the current climate politicians feel comfortable in saying this outrageously hateful shit. It’s like we’ve somehow moved the moral compass of what’s acceptable to say; It seems like more normal people are now saying more outrageous shit and thinking it’s okay because our politicians are doing it. For example, Adam Carolla thinking that it’s okay to say “dudes are funnier than chicks” when talking about his fellow professional comics and comedians

LW: I worked for him, and so I took personal offence at that. It was like, I worked for you, you hired me to make your show funnier, and you’re saying that I was one of the less funny people. Were you forced to hire me? I worked on your show as a producer; Are you just saying this because you have a book out and it’ll trend on Twitter and you’ll sell more books? Is it worth it for you to sell out women? Do you really believe that or do you not? Either way it’s sort of shitty. I feel really bad about that. I can’t believe it actually…

Do men really want their sexual partners to feel shame and guilt about being sexual beings? Because that doesn’t really add to a healthy relationship or a good sex life or anything. Men should be really mad that they are also going to be affected by women having to reassess their sexual freedom. That’s the part that’s crazy. It’s like, do you guys not understand that this is about you too?

NP: I feel like women are getting betrayed by the right, and one might expect that, but they are also being betrayed by the left who know better. Because the left’s voices are in no way shouting as loud as this level of hate speak towards a group warrants.

LW: I do hear a backlash, but it’s like yelling into a hurricane, like trying to have a conversation in a crowded bar – that’s what we’re up against. It’s like if Metallica was on stage at a bar that accommodates 30 people and they’re just playing really loudly, and you’re trying to have a conversation, you’re just drowned out…The cacophony of people who are championing this whole War on Women have so much invested in making sure that women’s voices are silenced that they are going to shout louder. It’s coming so fast and furious I don’t know how we win this game of Wack-Em-All, because once we hit one, four more pop up. I think that it’s not that there are people who aren’t fighting back, it’s that they are just so much more organized and invested in keeping us down that they’re just the loudest. We need to change that.

NP: It’s so hard because women’s voices are the minority in politics, as they are in comedy. There’s so much for so few people to do.

LW: Right, I know, exactly. You’re one person. I basically made a decision to selectively really focus my time on reproductive health issues. That in and of itself is so all-consuming that I have let other parts of my life almost go by the wayside…It’s gotten so overwhelming.

When you come to these towns, the people who work at these clinics have been so beaten down. Every day when they go to work there are protesters demonizing them. They are so thankful that someone has come to their town that is merely celebrating them. It’s heartbreaking. It makes me feel completely warm and fuzzy inside that I can say, “There’s people out here trying to fight with you and for you.”

I really hope that women are going to understand that in this war, the people who are providing the healthcare, they can’t defend themselves and provide the health care, and do everything. We need to say, I have used your services, you have helped me, and I am here for you. I’ve got your back. That needs to be a priority that I hope more and more women will understand, because that’s what we’re talking about.

NP: Right. There are so many women that organizations like Planned Parenthood have helped that have been able to have careers that they may not have otherwise been able to have, but they are shamed into remaining silent. On an individual level you can understand that, because admitting you’ve had an abortion does potentially impact your career.

LW: That’s exactly right. People still demonize you if you come out and say you’re pro-choice or for Planned Parenthood. They rally the advertisers and say don’t hire that person on your TV show because that person is an advocate for abortion and we’re going to boycott your show. That has been the way it has been for the civil rights movement, and all the other movements. At some point you have to say, if we have enough people who are involved in the movement and say “I stand with you,” then they can’t boycott individuals because there’s too many of us giving them power.

NP: Have you had many incidents like that in your own life?

LW: I changed the names of some of my best friends who are not in the public sphere, and are just my dear friends, because those people do get people’s numbers and call up and scream at them and harass them. They have kids and they have lives and they don’t need that shit. I had this woman, Lila Rose, who is somebody everyone needs to know because she’s the woman doing those Planned Parenthood things, re-editing tapes and demonizing everybody, her website tried to compare me with Michael Vick because I was raising money for Planned Parenthood. [They said] why did Michael Vick go to jail for his dog fighting ring when I was doing something worse which is raising money for murder.

I was just like really? You’ve made that leap? That’s where you’re at? I get a lot of emails, and I get people posting on Twitter, and writing blog posts about me and my hatred of women and babies and everything else. I turn 51 this year, and I feel like I’m a fully formed human, and nothing they do can phase me at this point. Because what I’ve done I’m proud of in my career. I’m not afraid of what happens to me because of them. Hopefully other women will get there.

But bring it on. Bring it on. I don’t give a shit. I really don’t. I really just don’t give a shit. Because the bottom line is if you call yourself a progressive or you call yourself a radical or a liberal, they just assume you spend your days with babies on a stick dancing around anyway, so you might as well just tell your story because they are going to demonize you nine ways to Sunday.

NP: I really, absolutely applaud you for what you are doing. There’s just so few people in this climate who are willing to stand up for Planned Parenthood in such an honest and personal way.

LW: Well, I’m glad that I can do it because they helped me. Because Planned Parenthood existed, I was allowed to pursue what I believe was my destiny. Everyone should have that option to succeed and fail on their own terms. Hopefully by doing it, more people will jump on board and do it…

For me, it was easier to just go it alone because all I need is somebody’s couch to sleep on or a crappy hotel and a couple of music stands and a microphone and a glass of water, and then a whole bunch of people who are willing to get as many people as possible to come out and see a show that is going to raise money…

You know, when you have three or four hundred people together sitting around in a room and they’re seeing your comedy show, it’s much bigger than that. The [audience] looks around and they go, “Wow! That woman lives across the street from me. I didn’t know she was into this.” Or, “I work with that woman.” All of a sudden there is a community of people who pick up the reigns and talk to each other, and plot and scheme long after you’ve left. That’s the part that is super cool. It might be a bit of a slower process, but people do get really devoted and they do care…It’s really fulfilling and rewarding.

NP: Well, I for one am incredibly grateful that you were able to follow your path in your career because you have helped me keep my sanity. That’s what The Daily Show does for me, and obviously you co-created not just the show, but that comedy genre.

LW: It’s kind of crazy that somebody let me do it. The thing that is so awesome about it is that when Jon [Stewart] and his team came in, they brought it to a level that was utterly brilliant. You could never have imagined that it could have become such a juggernaut. Conversely, you could never have imagined that the media could become so derelict that a show like that could thrive. Because that show, it gets better and better as the media gets worse and worse somehow.

NP: What saddens me is that you never got to work on the show with Jon. I know he was your first choice and that you had a preexisting relationship with him. I would have loved to have seen what you guys could have done together.

LW: He asked me to come back a couple of different times and I was so flattered. But I just looked at him and I thought, you got this. Shouldn’t I be trying to do more stuff like this to get more stuff out in the world? That was my big plan, but after 9/11, it just shut down. People were [of a mindset that dictated] we do not challenge the government, we support the mission, we were attacked, we’re a united nation. But there was so much stuff to talk about. We need to always – no matter what happens – make sure that we keep our government and our media accountable. There was a real radio silence on doing all that.

NP: What you call the “satire blackout” in your book.

LW: Exactly. So when Air America called it was like, oh my god, thank you. Because there was an astounding chasm between right wing talk radio and any kind of progressive left talk radio. I can’t remember the statistics, I think it was 93 percent conservative to 7 percent liberal or progressive…The information is just staggeringly one-sided. I have never understood how people like Rush still have their job and still have advertisers; that these people who say just horrible shit that’s A) not true and B) that’s just hateful, are rewarded by advertising dollars, and that Air America – when speaking truth and power – was struggling every day just to get advertisers. It was just maddening.

NP: Air America has lived on in that so many of its voices continue to be heard. Obviously Rachel Maddow is one of Air America’s greatest success stories, and you played a huge part in discovering and launching her…

LW: Yeah, and that’s the thing, the story about Air America that’s always told is liberal radio doesn’t work, nobody wants to hear the message. And it’s like, you know what? Every single person that was on that initial network is very successful. Marc Maron has the number one podcast. And there’s Rachel, Randi Rhodes has a very successful talk show, Sam Seder has an amazing podcasting radio show and he’s on Ring of Fire and that’s doing quite well, and [urlhttp://alfranken.com/]Al Franken is a United States senator. It wasn’t about the talent or the message, it was just about the fact that we had people that ran that place who were not honest about the money they had. Once you start getting into a big financial hole it’s hard to get out. You need capital to be able to have a strong message, it’s the nature of the world we live in.

NP: Also, they say that people don’t want to listen to liberal talk radio; People want to listen, but the advertisers don’t want to pay – that’s a different thing altogether.

LW: Yep, that’s exactly right. People want it, but when you rely on a corporate structure it gets really tough. It’s much easier to fund a message that doesn’t require anything of the advertisers, [for them] to change or do anything.

NP: In England we have the benefit of well funded state media. I know our mutual friend Greg Palast has a problem even with NPR and PBS because the likes of BP are some of their biggest sponsors, which is advertising by another name. These public stations therefore have to play softball when it comes to the effects of pollution in the Gulf for example.

LW: Right. So where are our truth tellers? They are just silenced by the people who sponsor the programs and that seems very calculated doesn’t it?

NP: It does. That’s why people like you, going out and doing stand up where there’s no agenda in a medium where you can just speak unadulterated truth to power is so important. And it’s important to encourage more people to go out and look for that, rather than just expecting that the truth will come to them. Lies will just come to them because they’re being paid for. If you want the truth, you have to go out and seek it.

LW: Right. Exactly.

NP: What’s next for you?

LW: That’s an interesting question because I’ve been one of these people my whole life — I’ve never had a plan. I’ve never had a career path…Whatever happens next will probably just roll out eventually out of what I’m doing now. I don’t know what that is. I might be doing a documentary on the state of women’s health in the country. Hopefully I’ll write another book. I’ll be doing stand up. I’m going to be doing a column in The Guardian…I’m really excited about that. They have been massively supportive of my messaging, and who I am, and it’s just been incredibly encouraging. Hopefully I’ll be challenging shit that I see that’s wrong in whatever form that takes. I’m kind of willing to go there so long as I have that ability. So that is the non-planned plan.


For more from Lizz Winstead visit her website, and for information on her stand up shows visit this page. Her book, Lizz Free Or Die, is out now.

web address: http://suicidegirls.com/interviews/Lizz+Winstead%3A+Lizz+Free+Or+Die/