“It’s sinful not to give in to your desire.” - Nicolas Winding Refn, Writer/Director
Nicolas Winding Refn can be a difficult interview. He will take long pauses before answering a question, and then his answer may be very brief. Frankly, if I get a whole sentence, I feel like I must have asked something juicy. Refn is such a singular voice that you have to prepare yourself to get Refned when you talk to him, or even when you see his movies.
I had more confidence than usual going in to this interview with Refn, writer/director of The Neon Demon. The film deals with themes that impact me as a writer about film and television. It is primarily about issues that face women in Hollywood, but people everywhere should infer that those issues trickle down to them too.
Jesse (Elle Fanning) is discovered in Hollywood for her natural beauty. She is a particular threat to Gigi (Bella Heathcote) and Sarah (Abbey Lee), two veteran models being edged out. Gigi in particular is obsessed with plastic surgery, chasing the ideal that others consider beautiful. Jesse befriends Ruby (Jena Malone) but must dodge the advances of many men, including would be boyfriend Dean (Karl Glusman) and the sleazy manager of her motel, Hank (Keanu Reeves).
The themes of The Neon Demon play out in graphic and introspective scenes like those in Refn’s previous films such as Only God Forgives, Drive and Valhalla Rising. The Neon Demon opens Friday, June 24 and you may have even more questions after you read my interview with Refn.
Suicide Girls: The Neon Demon speaks to me about things I think about a lot. I know I don’t have it nearly as hard as women in this industry. What I struggle with is how can I even appreciate somebody’s beauty? Am I objectifying them? So hopefully I’m on the right track thinking about the things you want me to with this film. How can we celebrate beauty without exploiting it?
Nicolas Winding Refn: By accepting the exploitation.
SG: So exploiting beauty is part of it?
NWR: There’s nothing wrong with being beautiful.
SG: Or not being beautiful too.
NWR: It’s the same thing. There’s nothing wrong with being who you are and exploiting every angle of that. To celebrate individualism, celebrate our own narcissism.
SG: Is it possibly still a problem when someone like Gigi lets it define her instead of doing it her own way?
NWR: Gigi is the downfall because she tries to recreate beauty because she wasn’t born as beautiful as the other girl. So she tries to recreate it but that’s the one thing that’s essentially wrong, because you have to accept who you are no matter what.
SG: She thinks she’s not as beautiful but we don’t even get the chance to evaluate that because we only see how she presents herself now.
NWR: And how she wants to recreate it. I believe that however your born is beautiful. Just accept who you are.
SG: Gigi and Jesse are stuck in a world that only celebrates one type of beauty. I don’t want to say there’s anything wrong with being thin and blonde, but why is that the only form of beauty they will accept?
NWR: I don’t think the blonde has anything to do with it. Elle’s character is different because she has something everybody wants, both Jena Malone who’s all about inner beauty and purity and virginity. The other ones want her outer beauty, her aura, her thing. I think both girls look very different .Abbey Lee and Bella Heathcoate are different types of beauty but they certainly live up to a standard of what is considered beautiful.
SG: I also struggle with if I have a type, that’s maybe more petite brunette, I feel guilty for lowering tall blondes.
NWR: But you shouldn’t feel bad about that because it’s sinful not to give in to your desire.
SG: That’s reassuring. I hope I do that in my writing too, celebrate everything that strikes me as beautiful.
NWR: It’s like not doing that is wrong.
SG: Could another inevitable problem be if someone like Jesse is a threat to someone else, they will always eventually attack the threat? Since we will always be a threat to someone, do we always have to be on the defensive?
NWR: I think competition breeds aggression. It’s normal.
SG: So if we don’t want to be attacked, is there any way to celebrate without competition?
NWR: No, because competition breeds on fear. Competition is a state of mind but it’s also a reality in certain phases. I think in art it’s pretty silly because there’s nothing to compete for. How do you evaluate good or bad? But it’s part of human nature to compete. It’s healthy and it’s unhealthy, but it’s very much about who you are as a person.
SG: Could another theme be to trust the right people? Maybe someone like Dean would have been more loyal to Jesse.
NWR: Yes, but Dean was hypocritical. The film was about beyond men. It was about beauty.
SG: The Neon Demon captures modern day L.A. Do you look at old L.A. movies and appreciate how they capture the L.A. of that year?
NWR: I like everything about L.A. I like the past, the present, the glamour, the vulgarity. I think L.A. has so many avenues that criss cross each other so I find it very inspiring to me.
SG: How much time do you spend blocking and positioning actors to make those frames exactly the way you want them?
NWR: Until it works. So that means I don’t shoot a lot of coverage and I don’t do a lot of alternates because I don’t have time. A lot of the day is about finding how the actors want to move, whether they feel comfortable and how can I photograph it.
SG: Do you slow down their dialogue, or are they pretty intuitive about the pace?
NWR: I love stretching dialogue because it makes everything more interesting when they finally talk.
SG: Was this as difficult a shoot as Only God Forgives?
NWR: Every movie is difficult, yeah. Oh yeah. But so was Drive. It’s not like one movie is easier than the other. Each movie has their own anxieties.
SG: I suppose because I saw the documentary about making Only God Forgives, was it as hard to find what The Neon Demon is as you struggled to find what Only God Forgives was?
NWR: Well, I didn’t struggle to figure out what Only God Forgives was. I was just more open to what it could be? The same thing with Neon Demon. It interests me. These films like Drive are about experiences, meant to inspire you.
SG: Which of your films changed the most from when you thought of them to when they were finished?
NWR: I’d probably say Bronson or Only God Forgives. No, I would probably say this movie.
SG: What might the original idea have been and how did it evolve?
NWR: Like everything, just evolution. I found something more interesting to start focusing on and I had to follow that domino effect.
SG: So was a different character the original focus?
NWR: No, not so much the characters but I love the relationship between Jenna and Elle, and that’s what the essence of the film is in terms of the character evolution. I wanted to focus on that.