Thats right I met the Punisher yesterday and Im not talking about Dolph Lundgren. Thomas Jane is now and will forever be The Punisher. The new movie is the first one to come out of Marvel Comics deal with Artisan Entertainment to bring the second tier characters from the Marvel Universe to the big screen.
But instead of Frank Castle being a Vietnam veteran whose family is gunned down in Central Park now hes a former FBI agent who accidentally got the son of the head of powerful crime family in Tampa Florida killed. This evil man sends his assassins to kill all 30 members of Castles extended family at a reunion and so begins the legend of THE PUNISHER.
Check out the official Punisher website.
Daniel Robert Epstein: What Punisher comics did you read in order to prepare for this?
Thomas Jane: Well, what inspired me to actually take a look at it, because I turned down Marvel properties before, but I was told that Frank Castle wasnt a superhero and he doesnt have superheroic qualities. He is really the bad boy of the Marvel universe. He actually killed people. Everybody else wanted to put him in jail. That was interesting to me. What made me look at the part in a realistic way were Tim Bradstreets paintings of the covers of the new Punisher stuff. Thats when I could see Frank as a human being and actually existing in a world. That was exciting to me. I picked up all the Welcome back Frank stuff. Then I went on to Steven Grants Circle of Blood miniseries. I read some War Zone and War Journal stuff. Thats pretty much where I stayed. I read a couple of issues here and there of the other series. Im a big Bernie Wrightson fan so I had to check out some of his Punisher stuff but I didnt enjoy that as a Frank Castle story. I stuck with the War Zone, War Journal, Welcome Back Frank and the Year One mini-series was influential as well.
DRE: The Punisher has such a rabid fan base. How has it been with the comic fans so far?
TJ: It does have a very fervent fanbase. I knew that going in being a comic book collector myself. I still collect comics. I still have a great love and respect for the genre. I have a great love and respect for people who appreciate the genre. I didnt want to take on the role if I felt I was going to not be able to give a valid interpretation of Frank Castle. That said, you cant please everybody. Youre always going to piss somebody off. In the comic book world, there are different eras of a character. A writer will take him one place, and another writer will come on and take him to a completely different place, and then one artist will draw him a certain way, and then another artist will see another aspect of Frank and draw him another way. The costume changes, the weapons change, his sidekicks change, and the enemies change. Everybody has their certain favorite Frank, or their definitive version of who that is. So theres no way in the world youre ever going to please all these people because we got to pick one guy and stick him in a movie. I had to please myself at the end of the day. I had to pick my favorite Frank and bring that guy to the screen, the guy I related to most. I went on the websites and I prowled around and culled all sorts of information about what people felt Frank Castle was. But at a certain point, I had to throw everything away and just go with what I wanted to do and create my Frank Castle and fuck everybody else.
DRE: You mentioned you were a comic book fan. What were some of your favorite comic books growing up?
TJ: When I grew up as a kid, I fell in love with the EC Comics from the 50s. It was illegal to produce horror and science fiction in the state of New York because of EC Comics. They just went over the line. Their covers were hangings and brutal stabbings. When they came out in the early 50s, people were just shocked and brutalized. There were government commissions set up to investigate the violence and corruption of the child. The Seduction of the Innocent is a fantastic book and you can read all about that stuff. The Red Scare and calling them communists. Its really funny that those are the first books that I started getting into that world. The Vault of Horror, Two Fisted Tales, Tales from the Crypt, incredible science-fiction, weird science-fantasyI collected them all.
DRE: So you still have all of them?
TJ: I still do. I covet them. Theyre holy grails to me. You do a movie like The Punisher and now I get the [William] Gaines file copies. Just pristine, immaculate copies and of course, if I do The Punisher 2, Ill start working on some of the original art. Some of those great Johnny Craig coversIm going to have an orgasm if I keep talking about them! They ripped off Ray Bradbury but they brought a real sense of literacy to comic books that is still unrivaled today. Their passion for what they did and unwillingness to accept the normal boundaries of whats in good taste was constantly called into question. [co-creator of EC Comics Al] Feldstein once said No, but it tasted good at the time. Its funny that those are heavy influences on me and Id be attracted to a thing like this.
DRE: As a parent of young children, what do you think about the level of violence in this film, which is so high and disturbing? Teenagers will want to see this movie
TJ: They do. And they will. Heres the funny thing: I find that as a kid, I could take much more violence, blood, guts, and gore, and you could bring it on and nothing was too shocking for me as a kid or teenager. And now, Im at 35 and my tolerance for that stuff is much less. As I grow older and closer to the grave, that stuff becomes more and more disturbing to me. I do remember, though, that I lived in another world than I do now as an adult. That world demanded a certain kind of shocking, take it to a limit, stretching the bounds attitude that was cathartic to me. And I sought it out in my movies, I sought it out in my comic books and novels. Now, kids are seeking it out in their video games. You cant do something tragic or gory enough in these video games. Theres a cathartic quality that serves a purpose that Im not smart enough to fully understand except on a gut level. That said, our tolerance for violence right now as a country, is not what it was in the 70s. If you go back and look at Rolling Thunder with William Devane or Point Blank with Lee Marvin or Death Wish with Charles Bronson, youll find that the violence in our movie is not as shocking as it was when my parents were my age. The end of Taxi Driver is just brutally violent and shockingly real that we couldnt do that today without an X rating. Theres just something about the quality about what we expect as a nation right now that influences and colors the way we watch movies right now. The fact of the matter is that most of this stuff, we kind of cut away from. Most of the stuff that is violence and uncomfortable is what you dont see, and what you would cut away from or is implied. Thats moviemaking. Peoples response to the violence, Im proud of, because I know that on some level, theyre emotionally connected to the material. Theyre not saying that about Dawn of the Dead. Dawn of the Dead has brains and shit on the floor.
DRE: Did you get Dolph Lundgrens blessing for this movie?
TJ: No I didnt. I view the original Punisher Dolph Lundgren version as Punisher in name-only. I think they bought the name and bought the title character and went off and made their movie based on what they wanted to do. It really is Punisher name-only. I see little or no relationship to the comic book source material.
DRE: How much of your own thoughts did you put into the movie?
TJ: Much more than the producers would have liked, I tell you. [Laughs] I really have to hand it to Gale Anne Hurd, Avi Arad, and Jonathan Hensleigh especially, for allowing me to be as collaborative as I was. I had my own ideas as to how I wanted to portray Frank and the things I wanted to come across. Jonathan and I were able to come together on those things. The producers allowed me to be collaborative. I was able to tailor it into what I wanted to inject into the film. I took out as much dialogue as I possibly could. I wanted to get that silent movie quality to Frank. I tried to make him as fallible as I could and I tried to find a humor without making fun of it, which is really important. To me, its the kiss of death when you start winking at the audience as an actor. I just never liked it. I dont like it when we do monologues looking into the character and I dont like it when we wink at the audience and go I know Im acting silly here or stupid. Thats just out of bounds for me.
DRE: How much weight did you put on for the movie?
TJ: I put on about 25 pounds of muscle and trained for about six months with Navy Seals, learning stuff about counter terrorism units, what it was to be a Special Forces operative, and just tried to gain all the skills that I needed to be Frank Castle. It was a very physical part and I approached it in a physical way.
DRE: Frank Castle is a very physically intimidating character. What did you do to try to bring out an emotional side of him?
TJ: I was very influenced by Buster Keaton in this role. I was very influenced by the great action stars of the 70s and the great silent film stars. Buster Keaton is my man. He was an indomitable spirit in a sea of chaos. Thats how I saw Frank Castle. I also saw Busters immaculate ability to portray physically great pathos and emotion. To be able to create a well-rounded human being and I related that to the silent action stars of the 70s who did things instead of talked about them. That combination for me was a wonderful blend because at a certain point, as I got older, I wanted to make fun of those action stars all of the Steven Seagals, Van Dammes and Stallones. These guys relied more on their tough guy attitude than they did on their human spirit and what made them so attractive to me in the first place.
DRE: If you were in the situation where you lost family members yourself, do you see yourself going as far as Frank Castle?
TJ: Id certainly imagine myself doing that. Thats one of the reasons why these classic stories have been around for a couple of thousand years. It taps into something very primal. Its an instinctual primal part of our marrow to protect the ones that we love at all costs.
DRE: How was working with John Travolta?
TJ: Hes a great guy. Hes a legend to me. It was an honor and a real pleasure to work with him. Hes very collaborative and a gracious man. You just want to kill him.
DRE: In the comics Frank Castles wife and son are murdered in Central Park. Why in the movie was it necessary to give him an extended family of 30 people and then have them murdered at a family reunion? Did they feel the character couldnt go far enough just because his wife and son were killed?
TJ: Emotionally the focus is on his wife and son. By expanding the scope of it we are able to make it more cinematic. On film time is everything. Its dictated by the constraints of time itself. By allowing the scene to blossom it sinks in the way we needed it too. Another reason is that the Punisher was created in 1974 post-Vietnam era. The random killing of Franks family in Central Park was incomprehensible because it was something that was relevant back then. Today thats not as relevant. The randomness is something that socially doesnt speak to us and filmmically its hard to do because you dont have nemesis or anyone to go after. Its not Greek. The Greek storytelling is two diametrically opposed forces and this is a classic Greek story.
DRE: Who is more iconic, Mickey Mantle or The Punisher?
TJ: Mantle lived with us. We can relate to him and we have baseballs signed by him. Frank is stuck in the comic world.
DRE: The Punisher is opening on the same weekend as Kill Bill, Vol. 2 and they both have the same target audience. Are you worried that the public may be divided?
TJ: Im sure that both movies will hurt each other at the box office. I think its inevitable. But when I was a kid, I loved going to the marquee and seeing two films on it I really wanted to see. That was a great weekend for me as a kid. For people that love this kind of thing, its going to be a fantastic weekend. People will go see both movies. This movie will find its audience and it doesnt have to sell happy meals or make $150 million dollars at the box office to be successful. Its a niche movie, a genre film. It doesnt pretend to be anything else. Sure, there are little illogical things and stuff like that but I just dont care. Its not that kind of movie. It only needs to please a certain section of the audience. People that dont like too much violence or dont like that kind of thing arent going to see it anyway. They get the gist of what it is. So this is the kind of movie that we can make for a certain person and not have to pull punches, or wash it out, or weed it over, or turn it into something that its not. Thats kind of unusual but we made it with a low enough budget so that we were able to do that.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
But instead of Frank Castle being a Vietnam veteran whose family is gunned down in Central Park now hes a former FBI agent who accidentally got the son of the head of powerful crime family in Tampa Florida killed. This evil man sends his assassins to kill all 30 members of Castles extended family at a reunion and so begins the legend of THE PUNISHER.
Check out the official Punisher website.
Daniel Robert Epstein: What Punisher comics did you read in order to prepare for this?
Thomas Jane: Well, what inspired me to actually take a look at it, because I turned down Marvel properties before, but I was told that Frank Castle wasnt a superhero and he doesnt have superheroic qualities. He is really the bad boy of the Marvel universe. He actually killed people. Everybody else wanted to put him in jail. That was interesting to me. What made me look at the part in a realistic way were Tim Bradstreets paintings of the covers of the new Punisher stuff. Thats when I could see Frank as a human being and actually existing in a world. That was exciting to me. I picked up all the Welcome back Frank stuff. Then I went on to Steven Grants Circle of Blood miniseries. I read some War Zone and War Journal stuff. Thats pretty much where I stayed. I read a couple of issues here and there of the other series. Im a big Bernie Wrightson fan so I had to check out some of his Punisher stuff but I didnt enjoy that as a Frank Castle story. I stuck with the War Zone, War Journal, Welcome Back Frank and the Year One mini-series was influential as well.
DRE: The Punisher has such a rabid fan base. How has it been with the comic fans so far?
TJ: It does have a very fervent fanbase. I knew that going in being a comic book collector myself. I still collect comics. I still have a great love and respect for the genre. I have a great love and respect for people who appreciate the genre. I didnt want to take on the role if I felt I was going to not be able to give a valid interpretation of Frank Castle. That said, you cant please everybody. Youre always going to piss somebody off. In the comic book world, there are different eras of a character. A writer will take him one place, and another writer will come on and take him to a completely different place, and then one artist will draw him a certain way, and then another artist will see another aspect of Frank and draw him another way. The costume changes, the weapons change, his sidekicks change, and the enemies change. Everybody has their certain favorite Frank, or their definitive version of who that is. So theres no way in the world youre ever going to please all these people because we got to pick one guy and stick him in a movie. I had to please myself at the end of the day. I had to pick my favorite Frank and bring that guy to the screen, the guy I related to most. I went on the websites and I prowled around and culled all sorts of information about what people felt Frank Castle was. But at a certain point, I had to throw everything away and just go with what I wanted to do and create my Frank Castle and fuck everybody else.
DRE: You mentioned you were a comic book fan. What were some of your favorite comic books growing up?
TJ: When I grew up as a kid, I fell in love with the EC Comics from the 50s. It was illegal to produce horror and science fiction in the state of New York because of EC Comics. They just went over the line. Their covers were hangings and brutal stabbings. When they came out in the early 50s, people were just shocked and brutalized. There were government commissions set up to investigate the violence and corruption of the child. The Seduction of the Innocent is a fantastic book and you can read all about that stuff. The Red Scare and calling them communists. Its really funny that those are the first books that I started getting into that world. The Vault of Horror, Two Fisted Tales, Tales from the Crypt, incredible science-fiction, weird science-fantasyI collected them all.
DRE: So you still have all of them?
TJ: I still do. I covet them. Theyre holy grails to me. You do a movie like The Punisher and now I get the [William] Gaines file copies. Just pristine, immaculate copies and of course, if I do The Punisher 2, Ill start working on some of the original art. Some of those great Johnny Craig coversIm going to have an orgasm if I keep talking about them! They ripped off Ray Bradbury but they brought a real sense of literacy to comic books that is still unrivaled today. Their passion for what they did and unwillingness to accept the normal boundaries of whats in good taste was constantly called into question. [co-creator of EC Comics Al] Feldstein once said No, but it tasted good at the time. Its funny that those are heavy influences on me and Id be attracted to a thing like this.
DRE: As a parent of young children, what do you think about the level of violence in this film, which is so high and disturbing? Teenagers will want to see this movie
TJ: They do. And they will. Heres the funny thing: I find that as a kid, I could take much more violence, blood, guts, and gore, and you could bring it on and nothing was too shocking for me as a kid or teenager. And now, Im at 35 and my tolerance for that stuff is much less. As I grow older and closer to the grave, that stuff becomes more and more disturbing to me. I do remember, though, that I lived in another world than I do now as an adult. That world demanded a certain kind of shocking, take it to a limit, stretching the bounds attitude that was cathartic to me. And I sought it out in my movies, I sought it out in my comic books and novels. Now, kids are seeking it out in their video games. You cant do something tragic or gory enough in these video games. Theres a cathartic quality that serves a purpose that Im not smart enough to fully understand except on a gut level. That said, our tolerance for violence right now as a country, is not what it was in the 70s. If you go back and look at Rolling Thunder with William Devane or Point Blank with Lee Marvin or Death Wish with Charles Bronson, youll find that the violence in our movie is not as shocking as it was when my parents were my age. The end of Taxi Driver is just brutally violent and shockingly real that we couldnt do that today without an X rating. Theres just something about the quality about what we expect as a nation right now that influences and colors the way we watch movies right now. The fact of the matter is that most of this stuff, we kind of cut away from. Most of the stuff that is violence and uncomfortable is what you dont see, and what you would cut away from or is implied. Thats moviemaking. Peoples response to the violence, Im proud of, because I know that on some level, theyre emotionally connected to the material. Theyre not saying that about Dawn of the Dead. Dawn of the Dead has brains and shit on the floor.
DRE: Did you get Dolph Lundgrens blessing for this movie?
TJ: No I didnt. I view the original Punisher Dolph Lundgren version as Punisher in name-only. I think they bought the name and bought the title character and went off and made their movie based on what they wanted to do. It really is Punisher name-only. I see little or no relationship to the comic book source material.
DRE: How much of your own thoughts did you put into the movie?
TJ: Much more than the producers would have liked, I tell you. [Laughs] I really have to hand it to Gale Anne Hurd, Avi Arad, and Jonathan Hensleigh especially, for allowing me to be as collaborative as I was. I had my own ideas as to how I wanted to portray Frank and the things I wanted to come across. Jonathan and I were able to come together on those things. The producers allowed me to be collaborative. I was able to tailor it into what I wanted to inject into the film. I took out as much dialogue as I possibly could. I wanted to get that silent movie quality to Frank. I tried to make him as fallible as I could and I tried to find a humor without making fun of it, which is really important. To me, its the kiss of death when you start winking at the audience as an actor. I just never liked it. I dont like it when we do monologues looking into the character and I dont like it when we wink at the audience and go I know Im acting silly here or stupid. Thats just out of bounds for me.
DRE: How much weight did you put on for the movie?
TJ: I put on about 25 pounds of muscle and trained for about six months with Navy Seals, learning stuff about counter terrorism units, what it was to be a Special Forces operative, and just tried to gain all the skills that I needed to be Frank Castle. It was a very physical part and I approached it in a physical way.
DRE: Frank Castle is a very physically intimidating character. What did you do to try to bring out an emotional side of him?
TJ: I was very influenced by Buster Keaton in this role. I was very influenced by the great action stars of the 70s and the great silent film stars. Buster Keaton is my man. He was an indomitable spirit in a sea of chaos. Thats how I saw Frank Castle. I also saw Busters immaculate ability to portray physically great pathos and emotion. To be able to create a well-rounded human being and I related that to the silent action stars of the 70s who did things instead of talked about them. That combination for me was a wonderful blend because at a certain point, as I got older, I wanted to make fun of those action stars all of the Steven Seagals, Van Dammes and Stallones. These guys relied more on their tough guy attitude than they did on their human spirit and what made them so attractive to me in the first place.
DRE: If you were in the situation where you lost family members yourself, do you see yourself going as far as Frank Castle?
TJ: Id certainly imagine myself doing that. Thats one of the reasons why these classic stories have been around for a couple of thousand years. It taps into something very primal. Its an instinctual primal part of our marrow to protect the ones that we love at all costs.
DRE: How was working with John Travolta?
TJ: Hes a great guy. Hes a legend to me. It was an honor and a real pleasure to work with him. Hes very collaborative and a gracious man. You just want to kill him.
DRE: In the comics Frank Castles wife and son are murdered in Central Park. Why in the movie was it necessary to give him an extended family of 30 people and then have them murdered at a family reunion? Did they feel the character couldnt go far enough just because his wife and son were killed?
TJ: Emotionally the focus is on his wife and son. By expanding the scope of it we are able to make it more cinematic. On film time is everything. Its dictated by the constraints of time itself. By allowing the scene to blossom it sinks in the way we needed it too. Another reason is that the Punisher was created in 1974 post-Vietnam era. The random killing of Franks family in Central Park was incomprehensible because it was something that was relevant back then. Today thats not as relevant. The randomness is something that socially doesnt speak to us and filmmically its hard to do because you dont have nemesis or anyone to go after. Its not Greek. The Greek storytelling is two diametrically opposed forces and this is a classic Greek story.
DRE: Who is more iconic, Mickey Mantle or The Punisher?
TJ: Mantle lived with us. We can relate to him and we have baseballs signed by him. Frank is stuck in the comic world.
DRE: The Punisher is opening on the same weekend as Kill Bill, Vol. 2 and they both have the same target audience. Are you worried that the public may be divided?
TJ: Im sure that both movies will hurt each other at the box office. I think its inevitable. But when I was a kid, I loved going to the marquee and seeing two films on it I really wanted to see. That was a great weekend for me as a kid. For people that love this kind of thing, its going to be a fantastic weekend. People will go see both movies. This movie will find its audience and it doesnt have to sell happy meals or make $150 million dollars at the box office to be successful. Its a niche movie, a genre film. It doesnt pretend to be anything else. Sure, there are little illogical things and stuff like that but I just dont care. Its not that kind of movie. It only needs to please a certain section of the audience. People that dont like too much violence or dont like that kind of thing arent going to see it anyway. They get the gist of what it is. So this is the kind of movie that we can make for a certain person and not have to pull punches, or wash it out, or weed it over, or turn it into something that its not. Thats kind of unusual but we made it with a low enough budget so that we were able to do that.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
VIEW 20 of 20 COMMENTS
And what happens?
Too many chefs!
This is why I'm glad that Jordans prequel to the WOT-series, "new spring", is being released in the form of a graphical novel. Which to my way of thinking is about the best way of visualising a good script nowadays.
No matter what you think of the LOTR- trilogy, we should fucking erect a statue over Mr. Jackson and his team for being the first people to prevail over a overcrowded studio system.
*waves his fist at Hollywood execs*