arbutus

which area? your profile says you're in Antarctica. What sort of food connections? As in, what food background do I have? Or, where can I get reservations and/or comps?

Gotcha. I used to manage restaurants, love to cook, love wine, and am the owner of the Kitchen group. Next time I go up to Napa with a group, I'll be sure to drag you along.

by hugs from the wine world, do you mean that you work in wine?

thabks for the good thoughts.

I'm stealing your joke.

Napa?

Hi

Thanks for questioning this - too many people spout opinions based on propaganda, myths and groupthink. It is morally strong for you to sidestep this and do research that might challenge your preconceptions.

This is an emotive subject and it is difficult to find sources that aren't biased.

I'd stick to unemotional sites that DON'T criticise "the other side" and just stick to facts & logical conclusions.

Zionism isn't just about religion. To me it's about race and national identity - although some people feel their Zionism is about the fulfillment of God's will.

I don't believe in God at all - I gave up Judaism in 1987. I am still Jewish though and more of a Zionist than many of my family who do believe in God!

Zionism isn't intrinsically partisan. You get right wing Zionists, left wing Zionists and Centrists like myself. To prove the point, here's a link to a "Progressive Zionist" site:

http://www.habonimdror.org/

At the end of the day, we are talking about three countries on landscape whose borders, country names, populations and rulers have changed so much over the years. Nailing who belongs where can be a bit like trying to nail a jelly to a raindrop.

A good place to start your research is with.....

the history of the region

Before the Jews settled there, the area was given its first name "Canaan" by its inhabitants - the long defunct Phoenicians (or Canaanites).

The Jews - or "Israelities" were a tribe started around 1800BC by an Aramaean guy called Abraham. He was born in Iraq but settled in the sparsely populated land of Canaan.

Here he developed the Hebrew language and the beginnings of Judaism. It was on a large stone in Jerusalem, where Abraham's faith was tested by his "God" - asking him to kill his son Isaac.

This was the area where the Judeo-Islamo-Christian concept of "God" was really born. The stone became the foundation of the first Jewish temple - and from Judaism spawned Christianity and later Islam.

So many wars and so much oppression has been carried out in the name of the God who spoke to Abraham on that stone!

People are still arguing about Jerusalem today.

Long after the temple has been destroyed the stone had a mosque built on it - the imfamous intefada flashpoint "Dome of the Rock" or "Al Asqa" Mosque. This gave its name to the suicide bomber division of Arafat's Fatah group.

Perhaps the area is cursed!!!

Anyway - back to the plot.

Famine forced Abraham's tribe to live in Egypt, where they were enslaved, but grew in number. They eventually escaped Egypt, wandered across the Sinai for decades before arriving back in Canaan and conquering it.

Their big enemies at the time were the Philistines (remember David and Goliath?)

The Jews established a kingdom, which was eventually split into two lands - Israel & Judah.

This map of the area in 1020 BC shows the region split into the Jewish countries (Israel and Judah), and the land of the Philistines (Philistia). Israel & Judah stretch into todays Jordan, but don't include the area around the Gaza strip.

Over the years the Jews have been the only people (since the extinct Canaanites) to have a homeland in the area. They've governed on an off for at least 700 years and have been in the area for 3300 years!!!

Of course the history has been turbulent - many were persecuted and exiled by the Babylonians & later the Romans. In more recent centuries they've been attacked by the Arabs. But they've always been in the area, but in varying (and until recently) diminishing numbers. More than ANYONE ELSE they are the true natives of the area.

A timeline of Jewish history and the lands they occupied (and had as a spiritual homeland for over 3200 years) can be seen here:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/context.html

A Palestinian version of the history can be found here:

http://www.palestine-un.org/info/hist.html

Although this article insists on calling the area "Palestine" and is skewed towards their political & religious ends, it is compendious.

So what about this issue of the name "Palestine"?

The label "Palestine" did not exist until the Romans renamed the Jewish lands "Palaestina". They adapted this from the word "Philistine" - just to piss the Jews off.

How did today's Arab Palestinians came to use the word?

The Philistines were not ancient ancestors of today's Arab Palestinians. It is thought the Philistines probably came from Cyprus and were not even Arabs.

The Romans were long gone when the Arabs finally invaded the region - as late as 638AD.

I guess the name hung around as a colloquialism for the general region - even if there wasn't exactly a country called Palestine. Here's a map of "Filistin" after the Arabs invaded:

http://www.mideastweb.org/caliph2m.gif

When the Crusaders invaded, the area seems to have been called "The Kingdom of Jerusalem":

http://www.mideastweb.org/crusade.gif

Then, after various invasions, it was the Ottoman Turks turn to run the area.

It is evident from most of the Ottoman maps, that in the more modern era, this area was called "Southern Syria":

http://www.ottomansouvenir.com/img/Maps/Ottoman_Empire_1481-1683_map.jpg

Although the region was occassionally known by the colloquial word "Filistin" - a corruption of the word Phillistine that the Romans used to piss off the Jews:

http://www.ottomansouvenir.com/img/Maps/Ottoman_Empire_Map_Largest_Borders.JPG

And more recently as "The Independent Sanjack of Jerusalem":

http://www.mideastweb.org/turkpal.htm

Who are the "Palestinians"?

If we take early years, they are Jews under Roman command.

If we take the regional nickname of the Ottoman years, they are "Syrians" of Arab, Jewish & Christian descent!

Many Jews started returning to the area in the late 19th Century. These early Zionists bought land, reclaimed marshes and developed farms.

The prospect of work brought many more Arabs into the region from Syria and other neighbouring countries.

Yes - Jews came into the area, but so did Arabs. Arafat was born in Cairo!!!

Borders were flimsy affairs at the best of times, and it is impossible to imagine that the Arabs or Jews living there felt national identity as "Palestinians" for the brief time that the British used the name.

I would guess that today's "Palestinians" call themselves this in relation to the modern country of Palestine - carved out of the confused mishmash of

Ottoman regions and sanjaks taken by the Brits after WW1.

Here's the latter day country of "Palestine":

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/British+Mandate.htm

As you can see, this country encompasses the area that would be taken up by both Jordan and Israel. Most of this Modern Palestine went exclusively to the Arabs and was called Transjordan:

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/images/transjordanmap.jpg

After a protracted war that intensified after WW2, the Jews claimed independence from the Brits and reclaimed the country of Israel in 1948. This was swiftly followed by invasion by neighbouring states, during which Transjordan stole another clump of land (the West Bank) for their country and renamed themselves "Jordan".

And aside from a few other hostile invasions of Israel by neighbouring Arab states, the taking of land as buffer zones by Israel (including snatching back the West Bank from Jordan) and the return of land to Egypt & Lebanon, this brings us up to the modern boundaries:



As you can see - most of Modern Palestine is owned by Arabs - perhaps if they call it Palestine, the Arabs calling themselves Palestinians will feel less disenfranchised...Jordan (which is most of modern "Palestine" is run by the Hashemite Arabs - a tribe originally from Saudi...even though most Jordanians are non-Hashemite Arabs who call themselves Palestinians.

Apologies for any typos and mistakes - you've taken up most of my evening Erik!!!

My conclusions: The Jews have an ancient claim to aboriginal status in the region. They have a strong case for a homeland. In modern times they have shared the area with the Arabs and both groups deserve a homeland - in proportion to their population.

The "Palestinians" have a homeland in the shape of Jordan. This does not encompass the original boundaries of the original Roman name for the Jewish land they conquered and called "Palestine".

Neither does the modern land of Israel encompass the original Kingdom of Israel.

Jordan does, however, encompass most of the more modern land of Palestine. This is the only land that existing pre-war "Palestinians" will be familiar with.

I have not gone into things like terrorism, but I hope this helps.




[Edited on Jan 25, 2005 5:20PM]

and if all that wasn't enough...

here is are British Empire perspectives of the events in modern Palestine as it morphed into today's Jordan & Israel:

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/palestine.htm

http://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/transjordan.htm

nb. Before Jordan grabbed the West Bank and changed its name it was called Transjordan

Hmmm... perhaps you should try that ol' surrealist thing of seeing if you can get them dreams on to canvas!!

Best wishes

So tell me how a relationship involving $ for companionship isnt level. In some ways its even more level than a so-called 'normal' relationship, because the cards are on the table. Both parties know where they stand, both are benefiting from it, and in quite a few cases (such as some of my own experiences) the 2 people wind up liking each other anyways, the person with $ winds up being more of a patron or benefactor to the other. Therefore 'patron' gets the additional satisfaction of knowing theyre helping out someone they like. So why is the man a 'sucker'?

I live on the edge of a nature reserve but all we get is rabbits and foxes

Have a good one!!