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Lizzie Borden
By Daniel Robert Epstein
Sep 22, 2006
Lizzie Borden is the director of Born in Flames, the groundbreaking 80’s independent film which introduced the world to a new kind of feminist. Many of the actors in Born in Flames call themselves womanist because as black women they felt that feminist was a word that’s been co-opted by white women. Born in Flames was set ten years after a socialist revolution where many progressive groups are dealt with by the government. A pirate radio station inspires a group of black militant lesbians to rise up. After many years, Born in Flames has finally been released on DVD by First Run Features.
Buy Born in Flames
Daniel Robert Epstein: I believe that the VHS of Born in Flames had only come out in 1997 so before that was it mostly shown in arthouse theaters?
Lizzie Borden: Well, mostly colleges and it was in 16 mm. There was a certain point where nobody was showing 16 mm anymore and the VHS copies were so bad that I went to New York to make a better one because you just couldn’t hear the sound. I kept asking First Run Features about putting it on DVD and finally they wanted to do it. I didn’t get to do a commentary and at some point I would actually love to do one but I wasn’t sure how to do talk about it because so much has been written about the film already. What does Born in Flames mean today in terms of the World Trade Center and how it blows up at the end? So I think any commentary would have to take those kinds of questions into mind and that’s why interviews about it are interesting to me because it helps figure it for the new generation.
DRE:
I’d heard of Born in Flames for many years but I didn’t see it until the DVD showed up. With so many people today considering themselves bi-sexual or gay it’s really interesting to push this movie in their face and show them that those words have real meaning.
LB:
That’s interesting. Right now we’re in the post Angelina Jolie era. Once she appeared she epitomized bisexuality, a little bit of S & M, piercing and alternative consciousness and yet she is very mainstream. So people would accept it with her mostly because she’s so damn beautiful and has that sexy attitude but that it could be problematic is bizarre. However, I’m making a documentary about a Watts activist named Sweet Alice Harris who is in her 70’s and has these homeless shelters and also teaches parenting classes for people who have lost their kids to the system. They are all ex-gang members or kids that have had kids at age 13 or 14 and she’s teaching them how to get their families back. So it’s not really about gangs but it’s got a lot of ex-gang people in it. Everyone is “Christian” down there and homosexuality is taboo, completely taboo. For example, Sweet Alice counsels people and one woman came in and talked about one boy who had been sleeping with her son and they’re all under 12. Then they started talking about how the older boy was kind of swishy because if you follow Christ you can’t be homosexual. Honey who is gay and Christian and runs the black, underground feminist radio in Born in Flames always has that problem because she has never found a church that accepts her. So homosexuality is taboo and so is abortion. I’m about to direct a fiction film about a woman in the 50’s who runs an abortion clinic in the bottom of a theater. What’s interesting about SuicideGirls is that it shows that the idea of multiculturalism is completely accepted. I’m bisexual but the guy that I’ve been with for a long time is black and at this point I don’t even notice it. I love the SuicideGirls aesthetic because it’s got fluid sexuality and racial identity which to me constitutes what we should be. It is very interesting that if you go to West Hollywood you’ll see that 25 percent of people under 30 years old have tattoos. What do you think of all the people who have tattoos?
DRE:
I think they’re doing it because it’s cool.
LB:
Ok, why is it cool? Where does it come from?
DRE:
Probably a rebellious thing.
LB:
I think that there’s also an element of the psyche in it where it contains a masochism but an in your face masochism like, “Ok, I can’t seem to fit into the world you’ve created but I can alter myself.”
DRE:
There are so many people getting tattoos now so what you’re saying is it’s probably right for a few of them. But it can’t be for all these kids getting tattoos.
LB:
That’s true. I think it’s just an escalation because it used to be that you would be rebellious by putting a green streak in your hair.
DRE:
I think in my lifetime we’ll probably have a president who has a tattoo.
LB:
You’re so right. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Condoleezza Rice had one somewhere. I think she’s into S&M in some weird way. I also think she’s a lesbian but because she’s a Republican she can’t really reveal who she is.
DRE:
What was going on at the time when you decided to make Born in Flames?
LB:
I made it because of political reasons. I was studying to be a painter and I was out there learning art criticism but the two didn’t go together because I was too self-critical of everything I painted and I knew I was a terrible painter. Then at the same time there was a second wave of feminism. Gloria Steinem was the first wave. I saw that everything in New York was very segregated. I didn’t know any black lesbians at all and feminism was being talked about and yet the black women who I went out of my way to meet didn’t like to use the term. They used the word womanist instead of feminist because they considered feminism to belong to white women. They see too many divisions among themselves to be after the same cause, although if they really thought about it, the cause would be the same. So I decided to make a movie about that and make sure that it was an inductive movie instead of a deductive movie. A deductive movie would have been the movie I made after that, Working Girls. That was about prostitutes and I wrote a script all in one day and I made the movie based on the script. Born in Flames was inductive in that I had no idea where it was going to go. I just set some rules like that it takes place after a cultural revolution because I didn’t want to deal with current politics. To create not so much a science fiction world but a what if world. Then I needed to get these women to be in it and create scenes. Once I found certain women I would put them together in hypothetical situations and film it. Sometimes I’d use a little bit and sometimes I would say, “Oh that’s an interesting scene, we could be talking about that” and then create a bit of the script about that. The characters who ended up staying with the movie were the people who ended up being interested in the film itself because I would have so many women who wouldn’t show up. They didn’t get the importance of having to be at a certain place at a certain time. The ones who stayed got really committed to being these characters. I shot the film over a period of five years and I would have to keep the actors in hats because they would shave their heads so the idea of being able to keep any continuity was really difficult.
DRE:
Was Love Crimes a studio feature?
LB:
No it was an Independent film. It was a disaster because I had come from being a seat of the pants filmmaker and putting projects together with whatever you have in your pocket. Miramax and a company called Sovereign Pictures funded it. The only requirement was that I had to work with Sean Young which was the biggest mistake in the world because she didn’t want to do it. The script had a lot of problems so Miramax and Sovereign could never agree on the script. I should have walked away before it even started. I don’t want to be the person who says that Hollywood is sexist because I actually think that it’s based on ideas, if you have the right ideas. If you want to do a sex comedy or something like that, a woman can succeed as well as a man. It’s just a question of what you want to do but I do think that guys do get more chances. I think that if a woman blows it in any way, it really ruins you. I knew that I had to generate my own material and I have been trying really hard to do certain movies but because they’re political, it’s hard.
DRE:
When people met you as you were going in for work I would imagine they thought they were going to meet some militaristic butch lesbian. Were they shocked when you came in through the door?
LB:
Oh completely. They were expecting some bull dyke with short hair but I was completely feminine. That’s another reason I love SuicideGirls because some of them are butch and some of them are fem. The idea that there is a free-floating look doesn’t really matter; you don’t have to look a part to believe a certain set of beliefs.
DRE:
Did you feel it was your job to convince them otherwise or were you just trying to get a film done?
LB:
I don’t necessarily want to be the person who symbolizes what I do. I don’t want to have to stand in for it. I don’t like to be looked at. I don’t even like a still picture being taken of me because I’m not the subject. It didn’t really matter what I came off as, because I myself was not the subject. That’s how I feel about everything I’m making. One of the strong things about SuicideGirls that I really like is that feminism was often anti-pornography which I didn’t agree with. The SuicideGirls could say, “Ok, fuck you we’re feminists. We’re going to be naked. We’re going to be in sexual situations. Some of us are going to look really fem. Some of us are going to look really butch. Some of us are going to look like any damn thing we want to.” To me that’s beautiful and interesting.
DRE:
Have you heard about Itty Bitty Titty Committee the film Jamie Babbit just made?
LB:
I haven’t but I know Jamie. I met her after her first movie [But I’m a Cheerleader].
DRE:
Jamie told me that that Itty Bitty Titty Committee was very much inspired by Born in Flames.
LB:
That’s really quite an honor. What’s interesting is that a lot of lesbian directors are very much of the system and have a very sophisticated style. I feel that the look of the movie determines part of the message. Part of the reason that I wanted Born in Flames to be so ragged is that I wanted the roughness to be right up there.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
Lizzie Borden is the director of Born in Flames, the groundbreaking 80’s independent film which introduced the world to a new kind of feminist. Many of the actors in Born in Flames call themselves womanist because as black women they felt that feminist was a word that’s been co-opted by white women. Born in Flames was set ten years after a socialist revolution where many progressive groups are dealt with by the government. A pirate radio station inspires a group of black militant lesbians to rise up. After many years, Born in Flames has finally been released on DVD by First Run Features.
Buy Born in Flames
Daniel Robert Epstein: I believe that the VHS of Born in Flames had only come out in 1997 so before that was it mostly shown in arthouse theaters?
Lizzie Borden: Well, mostly colleges and it was in 16 mm. There was a certain point where nobody was showing 16 mm anymore and the VHS copies were so bad that I went to New York to make a better one because you just couldn’t hear the sound. I kept asking First Run Features about putting it on DVD and finally they wanted to do it. I didn’t get to do a commentary and at some point I would actually love to do one but I wasn’t sure how to do talk about it because so much has been written about the film already. What does Born in Flames mean today in terms of the World Trade Center and how it blows up at the end? So I think any commentary would have to take those kinds of questions into mind and that’s why interviews about it are interesting to me because it helps figure it for the new generation.
DRE:
I’d heard of Born in Flames for many years but I didn’t see it until the DVD showed up. With so many people today considering themselves bi-sexual or gay it’s really interesting to push this movie in their face and show them that those words have real meaning.
LB:
That’s interesting. Right now we’re in the post Angelina Jolie era. Once she appeared she epitomized bisexuality, a little bit of S & M, piercing and alternative consciousness and yet she is very mainstream. So people would accept it with her mostly because she’s so damn beautiful and has that sexy attitude but that it could be problematic is bizarre. However, I’m making a documentary about a Watts activist named Sweet Alice Harris who is in her 70’s and has these homeless shelters and also teaches parenting classes for people who have lost their kids to the system. They are all ex-gang members or kids that have had kids at age 13 or 14 and she’s teaching them how to get their families back. So it’s not really about gangs but it’s got a lot of ex-gang people in it. Everyone is “Christian” down there and homosexuality is taboo, completely taboo. For example, Sweet Alice counsels people and one woman came in and talked about one boy who had been sleeping with her son and they’re all under 12. Then they started talking about how the older boy was kind of swishy because if you follow Christ you can’t be homosexual. Honey who is gay and Christian and runs the black, underground feminist radio in Born in Flames always has that problem because she has never found a church that accepts her. So homosexuality is taboo and so is abortion. I’m about to direct a fiction film about a woman in the 50’s who runs an abortion clinic in the bottom of a theater. What’s interesting about SuicideGirls is that it shows that the idea of multiculturalism is completely accepted. I’m bisexual but the guy that I’ve been with for a long time is black and at this point I don’t even notice it. I love the SuicideGirls aesthetic because it’s got fluid sexuality and racial identity which to me constitutes what we should be. It is very interesting that if you go to West Hollywood you’ll see that 25 percent of people under 30 years old have tattoos. What do you think of all the people who have tattoos?
DRE:
I think they’re doing it because it’s cool.
LB:
Ok, why is it cool? Where does it come from?
DRE:
Probably a rebellious thing.
LB:
I think that there’s also an element of the psyche in it where it contains a masochism but an in your face masochism like, “Ok, I can’t seem to fit into the world you’ve created but I can alter myself.”
DRE:
There are so many people getting tattoos now so what you’re saying is it’s probably right for a few of them. But it can’t be for all these kids getting tattoos.
LB:
That’s true. I think it’s just an escalation because it used to be that you would be rebellious by putting a green streak in your hair.
DRE:
I think in my lifetime we’ll probably have a president who has a tattoo.
LB:
You’re so right. I actually wouldn’t be surprised if Condoleezza Rice had one somewhere. I think she’s into S&M in some weird way. I also think she’s a lesbian but because she’s a Republican she can’t really reveal who she is.
DRE:
What was going on at the time when you decided to make Born in Flames?
LB:
I made it because of political reasons. I was studying to be a painter and I was out there learning art criticism but the two didn’t go together because I was too self-critical of everything I painted and I knew I was a terrible painter. Then at the same time there was a second wave of feminism. Gloria Steinem was the first wave. I saw that everything in New York was very segregated. I didn’t know any black lesbians at all and feminism was being talked about and yet the black women who I went out of my way to meet didn’t like to use the term. They used the word womanist instead of feminist because they considered feminism to belong to white women. They see too many divisions among themselves to be after the same cause, although if they really thought about it, the cause would be the same. So I decided to make a movie about that and make sure that it was an inductive movie instead of a deductive movie. A deductive movie would have been the movie I made after that, Working Girls. That was about prostitutes and I wrote a script all in one day and I made the movie based on the script. Born in Flames was inductive in that I had no idea where it was going to go. I just set some rules like that it takes place after a cultural revolution because I didn’t want to deal with current politics. To create not so much a science fiction world but a what if world. Then I needed to get these women to be in it and create scenes. Once I found certain women I would put them together in hypothetical situations and film it. Sometimes I’d use a little bit and sometimes I would say, “Oh that’s an interesting scene, we could be talking about that” and then create a bit of the script about that. The characters who ended up staying with the movie were the people who ended up being interested in the film itself because I would have so many women who wouldn’t show up. They didn’t get the importance of having to be at a certain place at a certain time. The ones who stayed got really committed to being these characters. I shot the film over a period of five years and I would have to keep the actors in hats because they would shave their heads so the idea of being able to keep any continuity was really difficult.
DRE:
Was Love Crimes a studio feature?
LB:
No it was an Independent film. It was a disaster because I had come from being a seat of the pants filmmaker and putting projects together with whatever you have in your pocket. Miramax and a company called Sovereign Pictures funded it. The only requirement was that I had to work with Sean Young which was the biggest mistake in the world because she didn’t want to do it. The script had a lot of problems so Miramax and Sovereign could never agree on the script. I should have walked away before it even started. I don’t want to be the person who says that Hollywood is sexist because I actually think that it’s based on ideas, if you have the right ideas. If you want to do a sex comedy or something like that, a woman can succeed as well as a man. It’s just a question of what you want to do but I do think that guys do get more chances. I think that if a woman blows it in any way, it really ruins you. I knew that I had to generate my own material and I have been trying really hard to do certain movies but because they’re political, it’s hard.
DRE:
When people met you as you were going in for work I would imagine they thought they were going to meet some militaristic butch lesbian. Were they shocked when you came in through the door?
LB:
Oh completely. They were expecting some bull dyke with short hair but I was completely feminine. That’s another reason I love SuicideGirls because some of them are butch and some of them are fem. The idea that there is a free-floating look doesn’t really matter; you don’t have to look a part to believe a certain set of beliefs.
DRE:
Did you feel it was your job to convince them otherwise or were you just trying to get a film done?
LB:
I don’t necessarily want to be the person who symbolizes what I do. I don’t want to have to stand in for it. I don’t like to be looked at. I don’t even like a still picture being taken of me because I’m not the subject. It didn’t really matter what I came off as, because I myself was not the subject. That’s how I feel about everything I’m making. One of the strong things about SuicideGirls that I really like is that feminism was often anti-pornography which I didn’t agree with. The SuicideGirls could say, “Ok, fuck you we’re feminists. We’re going to be naked. We’re going to be in sexual situations. Some of us are going to look really fem. Some of us are going to look really butch. Some of us are going to look like any damn thing we want to.” To me that’s beautiful and interesting.
DRE:
Have you heard about Itty Bitty Titty Committee the film Jamie Babbit just made?
LB:
I haven’t but I know Jamie. I met her after her first movie [But I’m a Cheerleader].
DRE:
Jamie told me that that Itty Bitty Titty Committee was very much inspired by Born in Flames.
LB:
That’s really quite an honor. What’s interesting is that a lot of lesbian directors are very much of the system and have a very sophisticated style. I feel that the look of the movie determines part of the message. Part of the reason that I wanted Born in Flames to be so ragged is that I wanted the roughness to be right up there.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
