I first met Leigh Whannell as the writer and costar of Saw. I thought it was a really cool indie movie that came out of nowhere. It had a mind-blowing surprise at the end and a theme that really spoke to me. When Whannell wrote two sequels in two years, I really got into depth with him on Jigsaws morality. Seven Saws later, and Whannell has written another script for his directing buddy James Wan .
Insidious again deals with themes that are bigger than the immediate story. In the film, parents Josh (Patrick Wilson) and Renai (Rose Byrne) find their homes (thats plural) haunted by spirits. So its a ghost story.
These ghosts are from a realm called The Further, the realm where souls live. Thats nice if Josh and Renais son has the power to leave his body while he sleeps. Not so nice if the evil souls of the dead come after the boys body while hes out. Whannell also plays Specs, a paranormal investigator in the film.
I reunited with Whannell in Austin where his film had just premiered at the South by Southwest on opening night. Hed had one hour of sleep after the midnight premiere, which made me feel guilty for getting a whole four. Perhaps we were both a bit closer to The Further than the waking world for this discussion.
SG: Is The Further a concept in spirituality and metaphysics that youve been interested in before?
LW: Yeah, insofar as it is the afterlife. Ive been fascinated with that topic for as long as I can remember. I dont know whats out there. Thats my belief, that the universe is full of mystery and I don't know what happens after we die. I don't know if everything goes dark or if theres something more. And I wouldnt claim to know and Im afraid that Im only going to find out once I die, so Im kind of obsessed with the topic of ghosts because seeing a ghost is a confirmation during your lifetime that there may be something else beyond your death. I havent personally seen a ghost or had any experience but I know plenty of people who have. So Ive been fascinated with that topic and I guess The Further represents the mystery that lies outside our death. From the moment were dead, what happens then?
SG: The Further seems connected with metaphysical ideas with whatever energy our body has, that there could be a realm where our energy exists in a different form.
LW: Totally, absolutely. I spoke to a medium before I really started getting into the writing. I had everything sort of sketched out but I was just talking to him about his job. He was talking about ghosts being energy. We have energy in us, like electrical energy, the human body. When we die, the energy doesnt just disappear, it sort of becomes part of the atmosphere. That is what he was saying a ghost is. Its that energy manifesting itself as something so its kind of an interesting idea what youre talking about. It seems at face value like an outlandish concept that is representative more of the horror genre than it is of real questions about what happens after we die. But if you look at it from a different angle, sure theres ghosts in white makeup but really what its looking at is this realm that could be all around us. Theres so much we dont know as human beings. Theres so much we dont know about space, about the human brain. I wouldnt even begin to assume anything about what youre talking about, like a plane where human beings can exist that isnt this plane, thats a different level.
SG: That was my way into it. It didnt have to be ghosts for me to be interested.
LW: Right, exactly. Youre one of the only people whos picked up on that. It doesnt necessarily have to be ghosts. It could be a time loop of people repeating things. Its really just the beyond, the space between.
SG: Where did you find the maturity to write parents when youre not one yourself?
LW: I have a lot of friends who have children and my brother has a daughter. Ive kind of observed this shift in the last few years. As you get older, Im 34 now, so Im starting to see the effects of aging, those first little creaks, the wrinkles and three day hangovers, saying things to kids like, Oh, this music sucks. When I was growing up we listened to Nirvana. That was real rock. What the hell is this Lady Gaga bullshit? Once you catch yourself saying something like that, you realize that you are your parents now.
SG: I find myself saying, Ra ma ramama? Come on, thats gibberish!
LW: [Laughs] You know what you sound like though, dont you? You do. You catch yourself and youre like, Oh my God, thats something my uncle wouldve said. Yeah, I find myself lecturing kids about the golden age of hip hop which of course was my age. In 30-40 years time, not even, sooner than that, the cover of Rolling Stone will be Kurt Cobain and Trent Reznor. Itll be the icons of our youth. Instead of Mick Jagger and Jackson Browne, itll be Curt Kobain and
Chris Cornell. Each generation gets to a certain point and position of power in the world, and then says, What I grew up with is the most relevant, important stuff. Then forces it on everyone else.
SG: Can you imagine the generation that grows up on your films and holds them in that regard?
LW: Thats an interesting point. I know, itll be interesting because I think theyll regard Saw the way that you and I regarded Freddy and Jason. I look back on Freddy and Jason now and all the hours I spent watching that stuff as a teenager and it was cool. I was so excited about seeing that stuff.
SG: What has it been like for you to start one of the horror movements with Saw and then see another movement begin with the Paranormal Activity type movies?
LW: Thats been an interesting changing of the guard. It makes you realize that the media cycle we live in is more accelerated. I think trends dip in and out much quicker. There can be a microtrend that lasts for a very short time. I think that with horror, the comment I get a lot is, Oh, well horrors back in now. Its popular right now.
SG: They were saying that when we were growing up.
LW: Right. What you and I know and what these people arent getting is that horror is always there. What comes in and out of popularity are the different subgenres of horror. For a little while itll be slasher films and then thatll run its course. Then it will be ghost movies and then it will be torture porn, extreme horror films like Saw and Hostel. Then thatll run its course and something new will come in. Therell always be something new. Its like whack-a-mole. You can whack one head but something else pops up over here. I also get the comment a lot, Well, horrors back in right now with Saw. And Ill say, Its always been around. What about The Others, The Sixth Sense? Oh, thats not horror. And Im like, Yes, it is. No, thats thriller. And Im like, No, The Others and The Sixth Sense are horror films. So I also think people have trouble perceiving exactly what is a horror film. To me, a horror film is something that is purposely trying to scare you or unsettle you. That is horror. Within that phrase lies everything from Cannibal Holocaust to The Others.
SG: You talk about an accelerated media cycle. Isnt there an accelerated production cycle too? Weve never seen franchises release a movie a year before.
LW: Its unprecedented. It started with Saw. Weve created a monster. When people ask me, Is the Saw franchise really over? I say, Yeah, these guys, these producers have worked their asses off. Theyre exhausted. They made one film a year for seven years. They literally finished work on one film on a Friday and had to start working on the next film on Monday. It was that much of a turnover and I think theyre ready to just take it easy for a while.
SG: I do hope youre a millionaire from executive producing the seven Saw films. How have you supported yourself with that franchise?
LW: [Laughs] Well, James and I get residuals from the Saw films, the fact that they make them. So its definitely been good to us in terms of letting us be more choosy with our other projects. I think if it wasnt for the Saw sequels, we would be out there shilling for whatever projects we could get to put food on the table. The Saw films have been this thing that has allowed us to be really creatively choosy. Its been at least a cushion of okay, a Saw films coming out this year, I dont have to worry about taking a job.
SG: You always said you intended us to assume Dr. Gordon died after he cut his foot off.
LW: I know!
SG: How did you feel when they said, We want to bring back Cary Elwes and this is how Saw VII will end?
LW: I didnt have much to do with it. The thing is, because its such a collaboration, after part III as you know I didnt have a direct involvement. So they made four more movies. Thats four movies they made without my direct involvement. I think it wouldve been impolite of me to come in and say, At this point, no, you cant do this. It was better for James and I to say, Listen, we know the films weve done and we know our mythology and weve created this character. Its now been taken over by new owners. It has a new foster home and its best to let them do what they did. To their credit, the producers were always pretty stringent about giving the fans exactly what they wanted. They really worked their asses off on those films so I didnt really say anything. I just let them do it.
SG: Certainly if they chose to go in that direction, they came up with a sensible reason for Dr. Gordon to survive and it ends the series on a high.
LW: Yeah, its interesting. Ive always chatted to you with every Saw film that I was involved in and seen you and youve been there from the start. So youve really seen this evolution from this standalone indie film to oh, now theres a II. Oh, now theres a III. Now its a mythology. Its this intertwined storyline that goes on. And youre making me think about a lot of things or articulating a lot of things that I dont usually think about, like yeah, one film a year. Thats an unprecedented concept.
SG: How about this? Youve had five screenplays produced. How weird is that?
LW: I know, its cool. Its a weird concept. I almost meld the three Saw films into one in some way but theyre not. Theyre three separate movies. The weird thing is, over the last two years, Ive written four films that havent been produced yet. Over the last two years, Ive written four scripts that you havent seen that are all in various stages of development and/or production. None of those scripts were a horror film. One was a noir thriller. One was a childrens film. One was an Australian film, like a crime drama and ones a comedy. So its pretty crazy that the films that are actually tangibly seeable are all horror films, yet Ive spent the last two years concentrating on anything but horror. But to you, it doesnt exist. To me its my whole life but to you, these films havent been produced yet. So Id love to chat with you during the press talks for one of these other movies just to see how that goes.
SG: Will each one of those, even the childrens film, have a twist ending?
LW: No, the noir thriller had twists in it. The childrens film is fairly straight ahead. Thats going to be an animated film hopefully. A companys picked that up thats going to hopefully turn it into an animation, so thats probably the most exciting project just in terms of the newness of it. The process of animations just so foreign to me so that to me would be the big one. Well be talking about that in 2015.
SG: Scream 4 is coming out. Do you imagine theyll have some commentary on the Saw movement?
LW: That would be very interesting if they did have it because they kind of made that their thing. Here are the rules. I wonder if theyve adjusted their rules.
Insidious opens on April 1.
Insidious again deals with themes that are bigger than the immediate story. In the film, parents Josh (Patrick Wilson) and Renai (Rose Byrne) find their homes (thats plural) haunted by spirits. So its a ghost story.
These ghosts are from a realm called The Further, the realm where souls live. Thats nice if Josh and Renais son has the power to leave his body while he sleeps. Not so nice if the evil souls of the dead come after the boys body while hes out. Whannell also plays Specs, a paranormal investigator in the film.
I reunited with Whannell in Austin where his film had just premiered at the South by Southwest on opening night. Hed had one hour of sleep after the midnight premiere, which made me feel guilty for getting a whole four. Perhaps we were both a bit closer to The Further than the waking world for this discussion.
SG: Is The Further a concept in spirituality and metaphysics that youve been interested in before?
LW: Yeah, insofar as it is the afterlife. Ive been fascinated with that topic for as long as I can remember. I dont know whats out there. Thats my belief, that the universe is full of mystery and I don't know what happens after we die. I don't know if everything goes dark or if theres something more. And I wouldnt claim to know and Im afraid that Im only going to find out once I die, so Im kind of obsessed with the topic of ghosts because seeing a ghost is a confirmation during your lifetime that there may be something else beyond your death. I havent personally seen a ghost or had any experience but I know plenty of people who have. So Ive been fascinated with that topic and I guess The Further represents the mystery that lies outside our death. From the moment were dead, what happens then?
SG: The Further seems connected with metaphysical ideas with whatever energy our body has, that there could be a realm where our energy exists in a different form.
LW: Totally, absolutely. I spoke to a medium before I really started getting into the writing. I had everything sort of sketched out but I was just talking to him about his job. He was talking about ghosts being energy. We have energy in us, like electrical energy, the human body. When we die, the energy doesnt just disappear, it sort of becomes part of the atmosphere. That is what he was saying a ghost is. Its that energy manifesting itself as something so its kind of an interesting idea what youre talking about. It seems at face value like an outlandish concept that is representative more of the horror genre than it is of real questions about what happens after we die. But if you look at it from a different angle, sure theres ghosts in white makeup but really what its looking at is this realm that could be all around us. Theres so much we dont know as human beings. Theres so much we dont know about space, about the human brain. I wouldnt even begin to assume anything about what youre talking about, like a plane where human beings can exist that isnt this plane, thats a different level.
SG: That was my way into it. It didnt have to be ghosts for me to be interested.
LW: Right, exactly. Youre one of the only people whos picked up on that. It doesnt necessarily have to be ghosts. It could be a time loop of people repeating things. Its really just the beyond, the space between.
SG: Where did you find the maturity to write parents when youre not one yourself?
LW: I have a lot of friends who have children and my brother has a daughter. Ive kind of observed this shift in the last few years. As you get older, Im 34 now, so Im starting to see the effects of aging, those first little creaks, the wrinkles and three day hangovers, saying things to kids like, Oh, this music sucks. When I was growing up we listened to Nirvana. That was real rock. What the hell is this Lady Gaga bullshit? Once you catch yourself saying something like that, you realize that you are your parents now.
SG: I find myself saying, Ra ma ramama? Come on, thats gibberish!
LW: [Laughs] You know what you sound like though, dont you? You do. You catch yourself and youre like, Oh my God, thats something my uncle wouldve said. Yeah, I find myself lecturing kids about the golden age of hip hop which of course was my age. In 30-40 years time, not even, sooner than that, the cover of Rolling Stone will be Kurt Cobain and Trent Reznor. Itll be the icons of our youth. Instead of Mick Jagger and Jackson Browne, itll be Curt Kobain and
Chris Cornell. Each generation gets to a certain point and position of power in the world, and then says, What I grew up with is the most relevant, important stuff. Then forces it on everyone else.
SG: Can you imagine the generation that grows up on your films and holds them in that regard?
LW: Thats an interesting point. I know, itll be interesting because I think theyll regard Saw the way that you and I regarded Freddy and Jason. I look back on Freddy and Jason now and all the hours I spent watching that stuff as a teenager and it was cool. I was so excited about seeing that stuff.
SG: What has it been like for you to start one of the horror movements with Saw and then see another movement begin with the Paranormal Activity type movies?
LW: Thats been an interesting changing of the guard. It makes you realize that the media cycle we live in is more accelerated. I think trends dip in and out much quicker. There can be a microtrend that lasts for a very short time. I think that with horror, the comment I get a lot is, Oh, well horrors back in now. Its popular right now.
SG: They were saying that when we were growing up.
LW: Right. What you and I know and what these people arent getting is that horror is always there. What comes in and out of popularity are the different subgenres of horror. For a little while itll be slasher films and then thatll run its course. Then it will be ghost movies and then it will be torture porn, extreme horror films like Saw and Hostel. Then thatll run its course and something new will come in. Therell always be something new. Its like whack-a-mole. You can whack one head but something else pops up over here. I also get the comment a lot, Well, horrors back in right now with Saw. And Ill say, Its always been around. What about The Others, The Sixth Sense? Oh, thats not horror. And Im like, Yes, it is. No, thats thriller. And Im like, No, The Others and The Sixth Sense are horror films. So I also think people have trouble perceiving exactly what is a horror film. To me, a horror film is something that is purposely trying to scare you or unsettle you. That is horror. Within that phrase lies everything from Cannibal Holocaust to The Others.
SG: You talk about an accelerated media cycle. Isnt there an accelerated production cycle too? Weve never seen franchises release a movie a year before.
LW: Its unprecedented. It started with Saw. Weve created a monster. When people ask me, Is the Saw franchise really over? I say, Yeah, these guys, these producers have worked their asses off. Theyre exhausted. They made one film a year for seven years. They literally finished work on one film on a Friday and had to start working on the next film on Monday. It was that much of a turnover and I think theyre ready to just take it easy for a while.
SG: I do hope youre a millionaire from executive producing the seven Saw films. How have you supported yourself with that franchise?
LW: [Laughs] Well, James and I get residuals from the Saw films, the fact that they make them. So its definitely been good to us in terms of letting us be more choosy with our other projects. I think if it wasnt for the Saw sequels, we would be out there shilling for whatever projects we could get to put food on the table. The Saw films have been this thing that has allowed us to be really creatively choosy. Its been at least a cushion of okay, a Saw films coming out this year, I dont have to worry about taking a job.
SG: You always said you intended us to assume Dr. Gordon died after he cut his foot off.
LW: I know!
SG: How did you feel when they said, We want to bring back Cary Elwes and this is how Saw VII will end?
LW: I didnt have much to do with it. The thing is, because its such a collaboration, after part III as you know I didnt have a direct involvement. So they made four more movies. Thats four movies they made without my direct involvement. I think it wouldve been impolite of me to come in and say, At this point, no, you cant do this. It was better for James and I to say, Listen, we know the films weve done and we know our mythology and weve created this character. Its now been taken over by new owners. It has a new foster home and its best to let them do what they did. To their credit, the producers were always pretty stringent about giving the fans exactly what they wanted. They really worked their asses off on those films so I didnt really say anything. I just let them do it.
SG: Certainly if they chose to go in that direction, they came up with a sensible reason for Dr. Gordon to survive and it ends the series on a high.
LW: Yeah, its interesting. Ive always chatted to you with every Saw film that I was involved in and seen you and youve been there from the start. So youve really seen this evolution from this standalone indie film to oh, now theres a II. Oh, now theres a III. Now its a mythology. Its this intertwined storyline that goes on. And youre making me think about a lot of things or articulating a lot of things that I dont usually think about, like yeah, one film a year. Thats an unprecedented concept.
SG: How about this? Youve had five screenplays produced. How weird is that?
LW: I know, its cool. Its a weird concept. I almost meld the three Saw films into one in some way but theyre not. Theyre three separate movies. The weird thing is, over the last two years, Ive written four films that havent been produced yet. Over the last two years, Ive written four scripts that you havent seen that are all in various stages of development and/or production. None of those scripts were a horror film. One was a noir thriller. One was a childrens film. One was an Australian film, like a crime drama and ones a comedy. So its pretty crazy that the films that are actually tangibly seeable are all horror films, yet Ive spent the last two years concentrating on anything but horror. But to you, it doesnt exist. To me its my whole life but to you, these films havent been produced yet. So Id love to chat with you during the press talks for one of these other movies just to see how that goes.
SG: Will each one of those, even the childrens film, have a twist ending?
LW: No, the noir thriller had twists in it. The childrens film is fairly straight ahead. Thats going to be an animated film hopefully. A companys picked that up thats going to hopefully turn it into an animation, so thats probably the most exciting project just in terms of the newness of it. The process of animations just so foreign to me so that to me would be the big one. Well be talking about that in 2015.
SG: Scream 4 is coming out. Do you imagine theyll have some commentary on the Saw movement?
LW: That would be very interesting if they did have it because they kind of made that their thing. Here are the rules. I wonder if theyve adjusted their rules.
Insidious opens on April 1.