Like his name would suggest, Aesop Rock is a storyteller. But instead of shrouding lessons on morality within recycled folklore, the hip-hop emcee cuts to the chase, illuminating the human condition through unfettered observations on the strangeness of people and the shape-shifting worlds we inhabit. Born and raised in New York, Aesop has never lacked for subject matter. One could say that the city chooses her storytellers, and not the other way around. Aesop's refined staccato raps eloquently around even the harshest of big city truths, and when he zigs before he zags, the wordplay is nothing short of spectacular. His detailed, non-linear narratives explore the tension that exists between innocence and the sordid aspects of human nature; the self-inflicted identity crisis that exists when one dabbles in role play -- when the virgin taunts the whore, or when the pornographer becomes the ice-cream man. As Aesop puts it, his attraction lies in what happens when "fluffy meets evil."
Aesop sat down with SuicideGirls to talk about life as an indie-rapper and about his new full-length album "None Shall Pass," a collection of apocalyptic lullabies two years in the making, out August 28 on Definitive Jux.
Erin Broadley: Lets start by talking about the Walleyball short you scored for one of the McSweeneys Wolphin DVDs.
Aesop Rock: Oh cool.
EB: I thought it was amazing. What drew you to that project?
AR: I had done a benefit for McSweeneys that was a childrens creative writing fund and workshop here in San Francisco. I was a fan and I just walked in and said, I want to do a benefit show for you. So we did that and then I let it be known that I was down to get involved in whatever they wanted to do. At the time they were just starting that Wolphin series which is their new DVD magazine of short films.
EB: I saw the one with the short film where Dennis Hopper tries to blow himself up.
AR: Yeah, when I walked in thats the first thing I saw. I walked in and this guy was like, Look at this weird Dennis Hopper thing! I was down with it. Basically one of the guys that runs McSweeneys was like, Well, my donation is this movie called Walleyball. We just got back from filming at the border. He showed it to me and I go, This is fucking nuts. He explained to me that technically when you hit the volleyball over the [California/Mexico border] fence youre importing and exporting goods illegally from Mexico. I thought it was so great. He was like, Would you like to do some music? You would have to do it by tomorrow. It was very quick and I said, Yeah, I can whip up some volleyball playing music if you want.
EB: [Laughs]
AR: I just wanted to be a part of it. I tired to make something that sounds like goofy volleyball music.
EB: Right, something a little beach-y.
AR: A little beach-y.
EB: A little scary, maybe. The narrator talks about how there are motion sensors and its a militarized border and all that shit -- it kind of takes the fun out of prancing around barefoot on the sand.
AR: Right! I felt like if I did goofy volleyball music it would weirdly compliment that.
EB: Are the challenges different when it comes to making songs for an album versus making music for McSweeneys or the song [All Day] you did for Nike?
AR: Ive aligned myself with independent labels and its allowed me to do whatever I want basically. Which is this gift and curse because on one hand its awesome; its kind of like what everyone wants. On the other hand, if you run out of ideas you dont have anyone to blame beside yourself. Occasionally Ill get these side gigs, like the Nike project or the stuff Ive done with Jeremy Fish; they come to me with an idea and its basically more of an assignment. Like, Can you pull this off with this little? We have a starting point; the starting point is this fisherman. Usually Im into it as long as theyre not steering my hand all the way through. I liked Nikes idea of, Hey, can you do music for athletes to train to? I sit here and go, Well thats the weirdest thing anyones asked me to do.
To a degree its refreshing for someone in my position to get a little bit of direction. Sometimes when Im working on Aesop Rock material, if I have writers block Im like, Fuck. You know, its all on my shoulders and if I dont come up with something soon then everyones looking at me. Whereas [with Nike and McSweeneys] if they have an idea it takes away some of the hard part and it turns it more into this puzzle that you have to figure out. Like, Yeah, I can do this volleyball music.
EB: Whats the story with the song you did for Nikes Original Run series? I never heard of it until I found out you were involved.
AR: Its a series theyre doing now but they had only done two --one with LCD Soundsystem -- up until they asked me. The basic idea was 45 minutes of continuous music. They wanted mostly instrumental stuff.
EB: Im surprised they didnt want you rapping over the music like, Run the fuck faster. Dont stop asshole.
AR: Yeah [laughs]. It would have been fun to do that.
EB: Are you a big runner?
AR: No. But luckily my wife is. She was very much a lab rat during the whole process. Any project that comes to me thats odd or that I dont understand why Im being asked to do it, Ill usually do.
EB: Sure, its the odd requests that pique your interest.
AR: Exactly.
EB: How are things going with the preparation for the None Shall Pass release?
AR: So far, so good. Im swamped but its better to be busy than bored. Ive got two videos that are both started but not finished. We finally finished booking the tour. Ive got more going on now than ever before which is good but it all hinges on whether or not people like the record. Its all up in the air. Right now I have more little groups of people that Im working with at one time than Ive ever had. Its nerve racking because Im a bit of a control freak and I like to oversee everything. I have this chip on my shoulder where I need to be in charge. I have to figure out a way to trust. I know I drive everyone I work with completely crazy. I run myself ragged a lot and then Ill be like, Well, you know, Ive got to loosen up because Im going to make enemies this way. Especially this time around, just because there are so many little projects going at once, I think I have to take some Valium or something.
EB: Dont we all?
AR: [Laughs]
EB: Well, when discussing your past albums, reviewers have mentioned your ability to stand out because of your vulnerable storytelling style, as opposed to the tough-guy MC role. Do you have any thoughts about whether or not this kind of battle-culture mentality has taken hip-hop to a place where its more about machismo than music?
AR: Well, its hard to say because a lot of hip-hop does sound more like machismo and acrobatics and, to a degree, theres nothing wrong with it. That kind of competitiveness gets people involved and increases skills at writing faster but that being said, there comes a point where you just say, Okay, I cant do this anymore. There are only so many albums where I can talk about me and be braggadocios. There comes a time when you just need to talk about something else or you need to just take all these things youve learned and go in a new direction. A lot of people have a hard time digesting that. Its weird because I get all these labels of being sort of out there or being left field.
EB: Yeah I read something that described you as an indie-rap surrealist.
AR: Yeah, yeah. Its just so easy to be left field in rap because its such a small box. Theres not very many people doing something thats hot. Everyone keeps doing a slight variation of the same thing and its been like that for 30 years. At some point, whether youre going to get criticized or not, youve got to do something or it just gets boring. So at the risk of getting a bunch of hate, I just take things into my own hands and try something different. Whether or not it fails is up in the air but I just cant talk about myself anymore. The way that hip-hop has grown, its done the opposite of what a lot of genres have done. As it ages, it gets more refined and what youre allowed to do gets to be less and less. Whereas other genres kind of can
EB: They can leap all over the place.
AR: Yeah. Rap music gets criticized a lot for doing anything thats against the grain or out of the mold a little bit. Like I said, it doesnt take much to go out of the mold because rap is so self-conscious and everyones so aware of what the definition of hip-hop is and whether or not what youre doing is okay within the genre. Its stupid and there are definitely a lot of people that are pretty close-minded and consciously sort of trying to hold back what should be a natural evolution. It turns into what we have now, which is a bunch of people doing second and third rate versions of stuff that already existed 10 or 15 years ago. Its just laziness.
EB: How does this record fit in with your previous work? What new directions did you step into, if any?
AR: When I wrap a record, over the course of making these random songs something will click and you make a discovery and youre like, This is the first stepping stone into what I do next. Its hard to put into words but theres definitely a different overall sound. I want to be talking at people less and I want to be talking with people more. Id rather be engaging. I want people to be pulled into a record rather than be sort of preached at or talked at. Those were conscious things that I wanted to do. I dont know if being on the West coast changed it as much as the fact that I was out of New York. Im not out and about as much in this city. Im in my comfort zone in New York. Id been there so long so moving and pulling myself out of that was a pretty major thing for me.
EB: How long have you been in San Francisco?
AR: Almost two years -- a little over a year and a half. Being out of my comfort zone was something I was scared of forever. Then once I did it I was like, Ah, this is actually kind of more comfortable in a way. I dont know that many people here and I kind of like that. I dont have as many distractions.
EB: Its kind of an anonymous freedom.
AR: Exactly, I can just kind of get lost. I have to MapQuest going to the grocery store.
EB: [Laughs]
AR: Yeah, its fun. Its sort of this strange land. Everything I feared almost turned out to be refreshing. I still have a bit of an East Coat mind state and I still struggle. The whole idea was to come out here for a while and then move back to New York with my wife at some point. Thats still the plan but for now Im just on this extended field trip. Theres a lot of art and culture in San Francisco specifically. Im just sort of walking around in a foreign place every day. Its cool but everything Ive known and learned is from the perspective and attitude that comes from New York and Long Island. When youre in New York youve got this Im never going to leave attitude. Its comfortable and you think, This is it for me. Im here and Im going to put my flag here. Then something happens and you either build up the courage to leave or because of whatever turn of events, you get out of New York. Now I almost understand New York more because Im looking at it from the outside. When I do ultimately return there itll almost be more meaningful. Now I know what its like to be elsewhere. Ive traveled so much -- Ive been around the world but Im never in any one place for more than one night. So this is sort of kind of interesting.
EB: I think there are people in all cities with that Ill never leave mentality. I know people who will probably live in Kentucky for the entirety of their lives.
AR: Yeah, you feel this sort of kinship with your home territory. But then there are also people who are constantly on the move. I think theres something wrong with those kinds of people.
EB: Damn gypsies [laughs].
AR: Yeah. People that cant stay planted for more than a few months, theyre definitely running. It takes a special person to live like that; usually they end up being tour managers or something. Theyre a special breed. Someone that can stay on the couch for a couple weeks and then pick up and go on tour and the day after that tour ends get a job on another tour. Its the weirdest job to ever have probably.
EB: I dont know anybody that says they want to grow up to be a tour manager.
AR: No, its kind of something you fall into. I know a guy whos been saying, This will be my last tour, for the last three years.
EB: So, Jeremy Fish, the visual artist you collaborate with a lot, also lives in San Francisco. He did the None Shall Pass artwork and you guys also collaborated on a short story called The Next Best Thing, a childrens book of sorts, right?
AR: Yeah. When I moved out here I was a fan of him but I didnt know he was a fan of me. We have a friend in common and basically he got in touch with me because he got the opportunity to pitch a cartoon to Disney and he said, Hey, do you want to do some music for this if it ever were to go through? I was like, Fuck yeah, that sounds crazy. I was like, And by the way Im moving to San Francisco next week. So why dont we meet up? So, long story short, the cartoon bounced around in TV land for a while. The pitch still exists but weve since moved on. In the meantime we became really good friends. Hes one of the only people I actually know and have become close to since I moved out here. It just became really natural for us to work together regardless. So the first thing we did was that book and record, which is similar to those old Disney books and records that used to come out where you sort of played the record and turned pages along with the record. I was interested in trying to think of different ways to bring visual arts and music together more often. Its kind of a crime how little it happens these days.
EB: Yeah, Jeremys stuff is great. Did you by chance pick up that Lost Girls series that Alan Moore did?
AR: Uh-uh.
EB: Its a set of graphic novels about, like, what really happens with all of the female characters from childrens books like Wendy from Peter Pan and Alice from Alice in Wonderland and Dorothy from The Wizard of OZ. Its very pornographic -- an adult book -- but theres this childrens element as well. Its like using these childrens stories as a vehicle for adult content. Its fascinating. Next time youre in a comic shop you should check it out.
AR: Right, right. Ill check it out. That was interesting, what you just mentioned. With Jeremys stuff and my stuff, we both work in this little world of trying to mix cute and evil together. Im trying to describe this evil situation using fluffy terminology or Im trying to describe a fluffy situation getting kind of evil or pornographic. And Jeremys signature is this skulls-and-bunnies thing where its fluffy meets evil. I tend to be attracted to that stuff. Its finding good in every amount of evil and finding a little evil in all the good, and describing any situation like that.
EB: I understand you have a visual art background as well and studied painting in college. What are some of the differences or similarities between collaborating with someone on a visual project versus in the recording studio?
AR: Its a similar process. I only like to collaborate with people that Im comfortable with and share a similar vision [artistically] or have a friendship. Someone like Jeremy I just knew would work because I felt his stuff looked like a visual representation of what some of my music felt like. He agreed with that so it worked out. Musically Ive somehow aligned myself with people I was a fan of before I knew them. When it comes to a lot of my friends, Im just fans of their music anyway so its easier to trust these people. I have a hard time trusting. The people I trust most are the artists that I collaborate with where I can say, I need you to do this with me. I need it to be kind of like this but I want you to put your spin on it and I need it by this day. I trust that theyll pull it off. I guess the whole idea with collaboration is that you give the other person some leeway.
EB: I came across a Dutch documentary from several years back on Def Jux in general and there was one part where you talked about the rough time you were going through at that point in your life
AR: Yeah, that was a bad era for me.
EB: You talked about shutting down and bottoming out emotionally and feeling like you werent able to function. I think most artists can totally relate to how you felt at that point. Do those feelings still threaten or affect your creativity? Or have you put them to bed for the most part?
AR: Yeah, I dont know. Everyone is different. Some people can go through every day with a robotic shield up and some are more affected. Its hard to say, but that [documentary] was a testament to a way more turbulent time with what stuff was going on for me. I was very uncomfortable with the fact that my music was making noise. I had achieved this slight degree of success and I didnt know what to do with it.
EB: Right, people coming at you from all angles.
AR: Yeah. I just didnt know what to do. Im not good at receiving that kind of attention. What I do is always kind of based in the art side of things. You know, I went to school for painting
EB: Right, which is a very solitary art form.
AR: Yeah. The fact that I was making music in this indie way was very much based on the fact that I didnt want to talk to anybody. I like to create shit -- I like to stay up at night and create things and make something out of nothing so that when I wake up I have something to show for yesterday. That was how I always did everything. But then, before you know it, someone takes notice and its cool, but then more people notice. Its a little weird because before you know it, its really strange and you dont know how to react. Because youre like, This is just what I do. I still have those ups and downs all the time. I guess Im just predisposed to being that kind of person.
But Im more grounded right now than Ive ever been. Probably my marriage has something to do with it. That combined with cutting certain things out of my life that were negatively affecting me -- trying to grow up a little and realize that Ive got to be accountable for my actions and in doing that, I have to focus on certain things and make some decisions. You dont want to grow up but once you do it you realize that your life gets a lot easier. I became a little more focused on what I needed to do. Im still uncomfortable with the publicity aspect of all this but I like to make music so I can try to find some sort of balance.
EB: Are you ever worried that at a certain point -- for example if this album were to truly blow up -- do you ever worry that the attention will make you take a step back and not want to release future albums?
AR: Yeah, totally. I dont think thats going to happen, but yes, I would, in a second, step back. Ive already almost stepped back a few times. Some days its almost not worth it to go through the industry side when all I want to do is make some jams. I always tell this to my girl too, Im just like, Look, theres going to be a day where Im just going to snap and be like fuck all this shit and Im going to get a job at Starbucks up the street.
EB: I could see you in a green apron. Its a good look for you.
AR: Thank you. There are times where Im like, You know what; the stress that Im experiencing right now is quite simply not worth it. But somehow I get talked through it all the time; I have people around me that are like, Hey, dont worry man. Its going to be fine. Youre making a good record. Ive got this little cheerleader squad that helps me out. Im not going to lose friends or relationships over this shit. Im not going to fucking deal with people critiquing my lifestyle.
EB: Yeah, forget it.
AR: If it ever delves too deep into that territory, it kind of loses its fun and Im more than happy to just step out of it. Either that or Ill just release all my music for free.
EB: Sure, or you could just host open mics at the Starbucks youre going to work for.
AR: There you goI think youre onto something [laughs].
For more information and tour dates, go to www.myspace.com/aesoprockwins or www.definitivejux.net.
Aesop sat down with SuicideGirls to talk about life as an indie-rapper and about his new full-length album "None Shall Pass," a collection of apocalyptic lullabies two years in the making, out August 28 on Definitive Jux.
Erin Broadley: Lets start by talking about the Walleyball short you scored for one of the McSweeneys Wolphin DVDs.
Aesop Rock: Oh cool.
EB: I thought it was amazing. What drew you to that project?
AR: I had done a benefit for McSweeneys that was a childrens creative writing fund and workshop here in San Francisco. I was a fan and I just walked in and said, I want to do a benefit show for you. So we did that and then I let it be known that I was down to get involved in whatever they wanted to do. At the time they were just starting that Wolphin series which is their new DVD magazine of short films.
EB: I saw the one with the short film where Dennis Hopper tries to blow himself up.
AR: Yeah, when I walked in thats the first thing I saw. I walked in and this guy was like, Look at this weird Dennis Hopper thing! I was down with it. Basically one of the guys that runs McSweeneys was like, Well, my donation is this movie called Walleyball. We just got back from filming at the border. He showed it to me and I go, This is fucking nuts. He explained to me that technically when you hit the volleyball over the [California/Mexico border] fence youre importing and exporting goods illegally from Mexico. I thought it was so great. He was like, Would you like to do some music? You would have to do it by tomorrow. It was very quick and I said, Yeah, I can whip up some volleyball playing music if you want.
EB: [Laughs]
AR: I just wanted to be a part of it. I tired to make something that sounds like goofy volleyball music.
EB: Right, something a little beach-y.
AR: A little beach-y.
EB: A little scary, maybe. The narrator talks about how there are motion sensors and its a militarized border and all that shit -- it kind of takes the fun out of prancing around barefoot on the sand.
AR: Right! I felt like if I did goofy volleyball music it would weirdly compliment that.
EB: Are the challenges different when it comes to making songs for an album versus making music for McSweeneys or the song [All Day] you did for Nike?
AR: Ive aligned myself with independent labels and its allowed me to do whatever I want basically. Which is this gift and curse because on one hand its awesome; its kind of like what everyone wants. On the other hand, if you run out of ideas you dont have anyone to blame beside yourself. Occasionally Ill get these side gigs, like the Nike project or the stuff Ive done with Jeremy Fish; they come to me with an idea and its basically more of an assignment. Like, Can you pull this off with this little? We have a starting point; the starting point is this fisherman. Usually Im into it as long as theyre not steering my hand all the way through. I liked Nikes idea of, Hey, can you do music for athletes to train to? I sit here and go, Well thats the weirdest thing anyones asked me to do.
To a degree its refreshing for someone in my position to get a little bit of direction. Sometimes when Im working on Aesop Rock material, if I have writers block Im like, Fuck. You know, its all on my shoulders and if I dont come up with something soon then everyones looking at me. Whereas [with Nike and McSweeneys] if they have an idea it takes away some of the hard part and it turns it more into this puzzle that you have to figure out. Like, Yeah, I can do this volleyball music.
EB: Whats the story with the song you did for Nikes Original Run series? I never heard of it until I found out you were involved.
AR: Its a series theyre doing now but they had only done two --one with LCD Soundsystem -- up until they asked me. The basic idea was 45 minutes of continuous music. They wanted mostly instrumental stuff.
EB: Im surprised they didnt want you rapping over the music like, Run the fuck faster. Dont stop asshole.
AR: Yeah [laughs]. It would have been fun to do that.
EB: Are you a big runner?
AR: No. But luckily my wife is. She was very much a lab rat during the whole process. Any project that comes to me thats odd or that I dont understand why Im being asked to do it, Ill usually do.
EB: Sure, its the odd requests that pique your interest.
AR: Exactly.
EB: How are things going with the preparation for the None Shall Pass release?
AR: So far, so good. Im swamped but its better to be busy than bored. Ive got two videos that are both started but not finished. We finally finished booking the tour. Ive got more going on now than ever before which is good but it all hinges on whether or not people like the record. Its all up in the air. Right now I have more little groups of people that Im working with at one time than Ive ever had. Its nerve racking because Im a bit of a control freak and I like to oversee everything. I have this chip on my shoulder where I need to be in charge. I have to figure out a way to trust. I know I drive everyone I work with completely crazy. I run myself ragged a lot and then Ill be like, Well, you know, Ive got to loosen up because Im going to make enemies this way. Especially this time around, just because there are so many little projects going at once, I think I have to take some Valium or something.
EB: Dont we all?
AR: [Laughs]
EB: Well, when discussing your past albums, reviewers have mentioned your ability to stand out because of your vulnerable storytelling style, as opposed to the tough-guy MC role. Do you have any thoughts about whether or not this kind of battle-culture mentality has taken hip-hop to a place where its more about machismo than music?
AR: Well, its hard to say because a lot of hip-hop does sound more like machismo and acrobatics and, to a degree, theres nothing wrong with it. That kind of competitiveness gets people involved and increases skills at writing faster but that being said, there comes a point where you just say, Okay, I cant do this anymore. There are only so many albums where I can talk about me and be braggadocios. There comes a time when you just need to talk about something else or you need to just take all these things youve learned and go in a new direction. A lot of people have a hard time digesting that. Its weird because I get all these labels of being sort of out there or being left field.
EB: Yeah I read something that described you as an indie-rap surrealist.
AR: Yeah, yeah. Its just so easy to be left field in rap because its such a small box. Theres not very many people doing something thats hot. Everyone keeps doing a slight variation of the same thing and its been like that for 30 years. At some point, whether youre going to get criticized or not, youve got to do something or it just gets boring. So at the risk of getting a bunch of hate, I just take things into my own hands and try something different. Whether or not it fails is up in the air but I just cant talk about myself anymore. The way that hip-hop has grown, its done the opposite of what a lot of genres have done. As it ages, it gets more refined and what youre allowed to do gets to be less and less. Whereas other genres kind of can
EB: They can leap all over the place.
AR: Yeah. Rap music gets criticized a lot for doing anything thats against the grain or out of the mold a little bit. Like I said, it doesnt take much to go out of the mold because rap is so self-conscious and everyones so aware of what the definition of hip-hop is and whether or not what youre doing is okay within the genre. Its stupid and there are definitely a lot of people that are pretty close-minded and consciously sort of trying to hold back what should be a natural evolution. It turns into what we have now, which is a bunch of people doing second and third rate versions of stuff that already existed 10 or 15 years ago. Its just laziness.
EB: How does this record fit in with your previous work? What new directions did you step into, if any?
AR: When I wrap a record, over the course of making these random songs something will click and you make a discovery and youre like, This is the first stepping stone into what I do next. Its hard to put into words but theres definitely a different overall sound. I want to be talking at people less and I want to be talking with people more. Id rather be engaging. I want people to be pulled into a record rather than be sort of preached at or talked at. Those were conscious things that I wanted to do. I dont know if being on the West coast changed it as much as the fact that I was out of New York. Im not out and about as much in this city. Im in my comfort zone in New York. Id been there so long so moving and pulling myself out of that was a pretty major thing for me.
EB: How long have you been in San Francisco?
AR: Almost two years -- a little over a year and a half. Being out of my comfort zone was something I was scared of forever. Then once I did it I was like, Ah, this is actually kind of more comfortable in a way. I dont know that many people here and I kind of like that. I dont have as many distractions.
EB: Its kind of an anonymous freedom.
AR: Exactly, I can just kind of get lost. I have to MapQuest going to the grocery store.
EB: [Laughs]
AR: Yeah, its fun. Its sort of this strange land. Everything I feared almost turned out to be refreshing. I still have a bit of an East Coat mind state and I still struggle. The whole idea was to come out here for a while and then move back to New York with my wife at some point. Thats still the plan but for now Im just on this extended field trip. Theres a lot of art and culture in San Francisco specifically. Im just sort of walking around in a foreign place every day. Its cool but everything Ive known and learned is from the perspective and attitude that comes from New York and Long Island. When youre in New York youve got this Im never going to leave attitude. Its comfortable and you think, This is it for me. Im here and Im going to put my flag here. Then something happens and you either build up the courage to leave or because of whatever turn of events, you get out of New York. Now I almost understand New York more because Im looking at it from the outside. When I do ultimately return there itll almost be more meaningful. Now I know what its like to be elsewhere. Ive traveled so much -- Ive been around the world but Im never in any one place for more than one night. So this is sort of kind of interesting.
EB: I think there are people in all cities with that Ill never leave mentality. I know people who will probably live in Kentucky for the entirety of their lives.
AR: Yeah, you feel this sort of kinship with your home territory. But then there are also people who are constantly on the move. I think theres something wrong with those kinds of people.
EB: Damn gypsies [laughs].
AR: Yeah. People that cant stay planted for more than a few months, theyre definitely running. It takes a special person to live like that; usually they end up being tour managers or something. Theyre a special breed. Someone that can stay on the couch for a couple weeks and then pick up and go on tour and the day after that tour ends get a job on another tour. Its the weirdest job to ever have probably.
EB: I dont know anybody that says they want to grow up to be a tour manager.
AR: No, its kind of something you fall into. I know a guy whos been saying, This will be my last tour, for the last three years.
EB: So, Jeremy Fish, the visual artist you collaborate with a lot, also lives in San Francisco. He did the None Shall Pass artwork and you guys also collaborated on a short story called The Next Best Thing, a childrens book of sorts, right?
AR: Yeah. When I moved out here I was a fan of him but I didnt know he was a fan of me. We have a friend in common and basically he got in touch with me because he got the opportunity to pitch a cartoon to Disney and he said, Hey, do you want to do some music for this if it ever were to go through? I was like, Fuck yeah, that sounds crazy. I was like, And by the way Im moving to San Francisco next week. So why dont we meet up? So, long story short, the cartoon bounced around in TV land for a while. The pitch still exists but weve since moved on. In the meantime we became really good friends. Hes one of the only people I actually know and have become close to since I moved out here. It just became really natural for us to work together regardless. So the first thing we did was that book and record, which is similar to those old Disney books and records that used to come out where you sort of played the record and turned pages along with the record. I was interested in trying to think of different ways to bring visual arts and music together more often. Its kind of a crime how little it happens these days.
EB: Yeah, Jeremys stuff is great. Did you by chance pick up that Lost Girls series that Alan Moore did?
AR: Uh-uh.
EB: Its a set of graphic novels about, like, what really happens with all of the female characters from childrens books like Wendy from Peter Pan and Alice from Alice in Wonderland and Dorothy from The Wizard of OZ. Its very pornographic -- an adult book -- but theres this childrens element as well. Its like using these childrens stories as a vehicle for adult content. Its fascinating. Next time youre in a comic shop you should check it out.
AR: Right, right. Ill check it out. That was interesting, what you just mentioned. With Jeremys stuff and my stuff, we both work in this little world of trying to mix cute and evil together. Im trying to describe this evil situation using fluffy terminology or Im trying to describe a fluffy situation getting kind of evil or pornographic. And Jeremys signature is this skulls-and-bunnies thing where its fluffy meets evil. I tend to be attracted to that stuff. Its finding good in every amount of evil and finding a little evil in all the good, and describing any situation like that.
EB: I understand you have a visual art background as well and studied painting in college. What are some of the differences or similarities between collaborating with someone on a visual project versus in the recording studio?
AR: Its a similar process. I only like to collaborate with people that Im comfortable with and share a similar vision [artistically] or have a friendship. Someone like Jeremy I just knew would work because I felt his stuff looked like a visual representation of what some of my music felt like. He agreed with that so it worked out. Musically Ive somehow aligned myself with people I was a fan of before I knew them. When it comes to a lot of my friends, Im just fans of their music anyway so its easier to trust these people. I have a hard time trusting. The people I trust most are the artists that I collaborate with where I can say, I need you to do this with me. I need it to be kind of like this but I want you to put your spin on it and I need it by this day. I trust that theyll pull it off. I guess the whole idea with collaboration is that you give the other person some leeway.
EB: I came across a Dutch documentary from several years back on Def Jux in general and there was one part where you talked about the rough time you were going through at that point in your life
AR: Yeah, that was a bad era for me.
EB: You talked about shutting down and bottoming out emotionally and feeling like you werent able to function. I think most artists can totally relate to how you felt at that point. Do those feelings still threaten or affect your creativity? Or have you put them to bed for the most part?
AR: Yeah, I dont know. Everyone is different. Some people can go through every day with a robotic shield up and some are more affected. Its hard to say, but that [documentary] was a testament to a way more turbulent time with what stuff was going on for me. I was very uncomfortable with the fact that my music was making noise. I had achieved this slight degree of success and I didnt know what to do with it.
EB: Right, people coming at you from all angles.
AR: Yeah. I just didnt know what to do. Im not good at receiving that kind of attention. What I do is always kind of based in the art side of things. You know, I went to school for painting
EB: Right, which is a very solitary art form.
AR: Yeah. The fact that I was making music in this indie way was very much based on the fact that I didnt want to talk to anybody. I like to create shit -- I like to stay up at night and create things and make something out of nothing so that when I wake up I have something to show for yesterday. That was how I always did everything. But then, before you know it, someone takes notice and its cool, but then more people notice. Its a little weird because before you know it, its really strange and you dont know how to react. Because youre like, This is just what I do. I still have those ups and downs all the time. I guess Im just predisposed to being that kind of person.
But Im more grounded right now than Ive ever been. Probably my marriage has something to do with it. That combined with cutting certain things out of my life that were negatively affecting me -- trying to grow up a little and realize that Ive got to be accountable for my actions and in doing that, I have to focus on certain things and make some decisions. You dont want to grow up but once you do it you realize that your life gets a lot easier. I became a little more focused on what I needed to do. Im still uncomfortable with the publicity aspect of all this but I like to make music so I can try to find some sort of balance.
EB: Are you ever worried that at a certain point -- for example if this album were to truly blow up -- do you ever worry that the attention will make you take a step back and not want to release future albums?
AR: Yeah, totally. I dont think thats going to happen, but yes, I would, in a second, step back. Ive already almost stepped back a few times. Some days its almost not worth it to go through the industry side when all I want to do is make some jams. I always tell this to my girl too, Im just like, Look, theres going to be a day where Im just going to snap and be like fuck all this shit and Im going to get a job at Starbucks up the street.
EB: I could see you in a green apron. Its a good look for you.
AR: Thank you. There are times where Im like, You know what; the stress that Im experiencing right now is quite simply not worth it. But somehow I get talked through it all the time; I have people around me that are like, Hey, dont worry man. Its going to be fine. Youre making a good record. Ive got this little cheerleader squad that helps me out. Im not going to lose friends or relationships over this shit. Im not going to fucking deal with people critiquing my lifestyle.
EB: Yeah, forget it.
AR: If it ever delves too deep into that territory, it kind of loses its fun and Im more than happy to just step out of it. Either that or Ill just release all my music for free.
EB: Sure, or you could just host open mics at the Starbucks youre going to work for.
AR: There you goI think youre onto something [laughs].
For more information and tour dates, go to www.myspace.com/aesoprockwins or www.definitivejux.net.
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