For some reason I expected Errol Morris to be a really serious documentarian trying to blow the lid off a scandal. Instead he was happy and smiling and laughing. He even made a joke that my two digital records (one for backup) were brother and sister. Morris has explored topics like police corruption in The Thin Blue Line and Abu Ghraib in SOP. His latest film, Tabloid tells a story we may not know, with a theme that still resonates today.
Joyce McKinney caused a scandal in the 70s when she allegedly kidnapped Kirk Anderson from the Mormon Church. At the time, the London tabloids either glorified her as a beautiful heroine or slammed her as a sexual predator. Today it takes far simpler scandals to make someone a tabloid star. For the film, Morris conducted an interview with McKinney and some of the other men who knew her, helped her or tried to stop her. The story unfolds in their own words, with a few on screen images for emphasis.
I spoke with Morris about todays media, tabloid or otherwise.
SuicideGirls: Would Joyces story make a dent in todays media?
Errol Morris: Well, hopefully my movie will. I dont know. Everything is so strange and mysterious, what gets traction, what doesnt. Hard to know. It didnt get traction here. We know that. It was never a big story in the U.S. Nothing compared to what it was in the UK.
SG: She had battling tabloids, some making her out to be as pure as a nun and others calling her a slut. Has tabloid coverage become more uniform now? For example, every coverage of Lindsay Lohan has the same point of view.
EM: Right. I dont know. There was something about this story that led to that kind of ambiguity. The claims that Joyce had made, the story that Joyce had told versus the investigation that was done by Kent Gavin. Maybe it was the peculiarities of this particular case that led to that. I think that had to be part of it.
SG: That makes me think that legal issues get covered with uniformity now too, whether its O.J. or Casey Anthony? What creates media ambiguity in a story?
EM: This story seems to have genuine ambiguity. I would go so far as to make that claim. O.J., Casey Anthony, seem to be a different kind of story altogether. They seem to be stories of strong public feelings about underlying guilt and the jurys reluctance to provide a conviction based on what they felt was insufficient evidence. That seems to be at the heart of both of those stories, correct me if Im wrong. I dont think you have many, many people saying, Im absolutely convinced that O.J. is innocent or many people saying, Im absolutely convinced that Casey Anthony is innocent. But we do live in a country where reasonable doubt is a standard in the courts of law, if the jury feels that the case has not been made sufficiently to provide a conviction under those circumstances. But those are controversies. This story, part of the reason why I became obsessed with the story, is all of these ambiguities and the impossibility. Its like GSK. GSK is a good example of a story that does have elements in common with Joyce McKinney and Tabloid because will we ever know what happened in that hotel room? We have a kind of he said/she said deal. We have the possible ex-president of France versus a hotel maid. Will that evidence ever sort itself out clearly so that we can say it was one thing rather than another? The papers of course play out both and flip flop between them and you get all kinds of variants on that theme.
SG: In my lifetime, Ive always assumed a tabloid was false. Thats why they call them tabloids.
EM: Why false?
SG: It started with The National Enquirer posting cover stories about aliens.
EM: Bill Clinton is an Alien, etc.
SG: What makes something a tabloid now?
EM: Its clear that theres lots of different kinds of tabloid stories. There isnt one kind of tabloid story. Its interesting, why did this become a huge story in Great Britain but a non story over here in the 70s. The difference between the Weekly World News and the National Enquirer or The National Enquirer and The Post, all these different versions of tabloid journalism. I think at the heart of it is that its a story which is almost like a sketch of a story. Its a summary of a story that in four or five, six words pulls us in. It just grabs a hold of us and drags us kicking and screaming into the story.
SG: In entertainment journalism, Us Magazine and People used to be considered legitimate magazines. Now theyre referred to as tabloids. What makes them tabloids now?
EM: I dont really know. Maybe youre right. Maybe its the sudden abandonment of truth, that we just dont care anymore whether something is true or false. We just care whether its interesting. That is against the deep interests of journalism because journalism should always ultimately be concerned with seeking the truth of something. The recent Murdock story involving News of the World seems to be a really different kind of story. Its a truly ugly story because here you have people not just merely interpreting the news but simply creating the news. At the same time, in a kind of callous way, I would go so far as to say even attacking the people that youre writing about. Its one thing for Joyce McKinney to come to England with chloroform, a fake gun and a pair of Smith and Wesson handcuffs and to either kidnap or not kidnap Kirk Anderson. She is a participant in all this. Its not as if somehow she was an innocent victim just preyed upon by the press. But if you talk about a girl whos been abducted and murdered and the parents dont know whether shes alive or dead and the newspapers are tampering with her cell phone, thats a different kind of thing altogether.
SG: Wouldnt that actually be illegal?
EM: I think that is the good point, because theyre actually doing stuff that is illegal. They are committing, I believe, felonies.
SG: The issue of what is a tabloid also made me think of how I am referred to as a blogger now. I do not write a blog. I do interviews and report news that is published online. Now they call anything online a blog. Why does that happen?
EM: Ill give you another example. I write longform pieces for The New York Times. I write on the Opinion pages of the Times. The last piece that I wrote was in five parts. Its 21,000 words. Am I a blogger? I dont really think so. I see myself as a kind of essayist who puts this stuff up on the opinion pages of the New York Times. Thats not really a blog.
SG: Are people calling it that?
EM: People have on occasion called it blogging. I just dont quite see it as blogging at all.
SG: So you feel my pain.
EM: I feel your pain. I think I agree, absolutely.
SG: Is there a way our industries can educate our audience into what is what?
EM: I dont know. I think that were living in a world where everything is shifting and changing so rapidly, no one knows really what to call what, what. Whats print journalism, whats electronic journalism, whats a blog, whats not a blog? Its all going to change. Probably turn around in another couple of months and itll be different again.
SG: Youve said not all tabloids are bad. What is an example of a good kind of tabloid?
EM: I love reading lots and lots of tabloid stories. I love for example The Weekly World News. Reading about Bat Boy Escapes From Cave, was that a terrible thing? Was I defaming Bat Boy? Bat Boy doesnt even exist. It was funny. It was fun to read. I use The Weekly World News to teach my son how to read.
SG: So its good entertainment.
EM: Yeah, its fantastic entertainment.
SG: What does it mean that the Mormon Church is now the subject of a hit Broadway musical comedy?
EM: Its an accident. I certainly wasnt aware of The Book of Mormon when I started to make this movie.
SG: But its been growing, Big Love was popular, and theyve become more well known than at the time when Joyce was dealing with them. Is it relevant that theyve become more public?
EM: Well, its certainly socially relevant in the fact that we have two people, two major candidates who are running for president who are Mormon. That in itself makes it relevant.
SG: Could it have happened before?
EM: I dont know. I dont know if I have a simple answer to that. Certainly Romney has been a presidential candidate for a while now. Hes not new but the idea that there are two, maybe more, Mormons vying for the presidency is an interesting phenomenon and it is something new.
SG: Do you feel the lessons of SOP and The Fog of War been taken since your movies came out?
EM: No. Not really. I think everything I do is connected. Its not as if these are separate discreet [topics]. They are, but they arent. Theres the same kind of concerns and interests in this movie as in The Fog of War or SOP .
SG: If you were still working on
SOP when you found out Seal Team 6 killed bin Laden, would that have affected the film?
EM: Not really. What is interesting is that Eric Holder, the attorney general of the United States, last week has opened an inquiry into the death of al-Jamadi which is the central murder in the middle of SOP. So that is still ongoing.
Tabloid opens July 15.
Joyce McKinney caused a scandal in the 70s when she allegedly kidnapped Kirk Anderson from the Mormon Church. At the time, the London tabloids either glorified her as a beautiful heroine or slammed her as a sexual predator. Today it takes far simpler scandals to make someone a tabloid star. For the film, Morris conducted an interview with McKinney and some of the other men who knew her, helped her or tried to stop her. The story unfolds in their own words, with a few on screen images for emphasis.
I spoke with Morris about todays media, tabloid or otherwise.
SuicideGirls: Would Joyces story make a dent in todays media?
Errol Morris: Well, hopefully my movie will. I dont know. Everything is so strange and mysterious, what gets traction, what doesnt. Hard to know. It didnt get traction here. We know that. It was never a big story in the U.S. Nothing compared to what it was in the UK.
SG: She had battling tabloids, some making her out to be as pure as a nun and others calling her a slut. Has tabloid coverage become more uniform now? For example, every coverage of Lindsay Lohan has the same point of view.
EM: Right. I dont know. There was something about this story that led to that kind of ambiguity. The claims that Joyce had made, the story that Joyce had told versus the investigation that was done by Kent Gavin. Maybe it was the peculiarities of this particular case that led to that. I think that had to be part of it.
SG: That makes me think that legal issues get covered with uniformity now too, whether its O.J. or Casey Anthony? What creates media ambiguity in a story?
EM: This story seems to have genuine ambiguity. I would go so far as to make that claim. O.J., Casey Anthony, seem to be a different kind of story altogether. They seem to be stories of strong public feelings about underlying guilt and the jurys reluctance to provide a conviction based on what they felt was insufficient evidence. That seems to be at the heart of both of those stories, correct me if Im wrong. I dont think you have many, many people saying, Im absolutely convinced that O.J. is innocent or many people saying, Im absolutely convinced that Casey Anthony is innocent. But we do live in a country where reasonable doubt is a standard in the courts of law, if the jury feels that the case has not been made sufficiently to provide a conviction under those circumstances. But those are controversies. This story, part of the reason why I became obsessed with the story, is all of these ambiguities and the impossibility. Its like GSK. GSK is a good example of a story that does have elements in common with Joyce McKinney and Tabloid because will we ever know what happened in that hotel room? We have a kind of he said/she said deal. We have the possible ex-president of France versus a hotel maid. Will that evidence ever sort itself out clearly so that we can say it was one thing rather than another? The papers of course play out both and flip flop between them and you get all kinds of variants on that theme.
SG: In my lifetime, Ive always assumed a tabloid was false. Thats why they call them tabloids.
EM: Why false?
SG: It started with The National Enquirer posting cover stories about aliens.
EM: Bill Clinton is an Alien, etc.
SG: What makes something a tabloid now?
EM: Its clear that theres lots of different kinds of tabloid stories. There isnt one kind of tabloid story. Its interesting, why did this become a huge story in Great Britain but a non story over here in the 70s. The difference between the Weekly World News and the National Enquirer or The National Enquirer and The Post, all these different versions of tabloid journalism. I think at the heart of it is that its a story which is almost like a sketch of a story. Its a summary of a story that in four or five, six words pulls us in. It just grabs a hold of us and drags us kicking and screaming into the story.
SG: In entertainment journalism, Us Magazine and People used to be considered legitimate magazines. Now theyre referred to as tabloids. What makes them tabloids now?
EM: I dont really know. Maybe youre right. Maybe its the sudden abandonment of truth, that we just dont care anymore whether something is true or false. We just care whether its interesting. That is against the deep interests of journalism because journalism should always ultimately be concerned with seeking the truth of something. The recent Murdock story involving News of the World seems to be a really different kind of story. Its a truly ugly story because here you have people not just merely interpreting the news but simply creating the news. At the same time, in a kind of callous way, I would go so far as to say even attacking the people that youre writing about. Its one thing for Joyce McKinney to come to England with chloroform, a fake gun and a pair of Smith and Wesson handcuffs and to either kidnap or not kidnap Kirk Anderson. She is a participant in all this. Its not as if somehow she was an innocent victim just preyed upon by the press. But if you talk about a girl whos been abducted and murdered and the parents dont know whether shes alive or dead and the newspapers are tampering with her cell phone, thats a different kind of thing altogether.
SG: Wouldnt that actually be illegal?
EM: I think that is the good point, because theyre actually doing stuff that is illegal. They are committing, I believe, felonies.
SG: The issue of what is a tabloid also made me think of how I am referred to as a blogger now. I do not write a blog. I do interviews and report news that is published online. Now they call anything online a blog. Why does that happen?
EM: Ill give you another example. I write longform pieces for The New York Times. I write on the Opinion pages of the Times. The last piece that I wrote was in five parts. Its 21,000 words. Am I a blogger? I dont really think so. I see myself as a kind of essayist who puts this stuff up on the opinion pages of the New York Times. Thats not really a blog.
SG: Are people calling it that?
EM: People have on occasion called it blogging. I just dont quite see it as blogging at all.
SG: So you feel my pain.
EM: I feel your pain. I think I agree, absolutely.
SG: Is there a way our industries can educate our audience into what is what?
EM: I dont know. I think that were living in a world where everything is shifting and changing so rapidly, no one knows really what to call what, what. Whats print journalism, whats electronic journalism, whats a blog, whats not a blog? Its all going to change. Probably turn around in another couple of months and itll be different again.
SG: Youve said not all tabloids are bad. What is an example of a good kind of tabloid?
EM: I love reading lots and lots of tabloid stories. I love for example The Weekly World News. Reading about Bat Boy Escapes From Cave, was that a terrible thing? Was I defaming Bat Boy? Bat Boy doesnt even exist. It was funny. It was fun to read. I use The Weekly World News to teach my son how to read.
SG: So its good entertainment.
EM: Yeah, its fantastic entertainment.
SG: What does it mean that the Mormon Church is now the subject of a hit Broadway musical comedy?
EM: Its an accident. I certainly wasnt aware of The Book of Mormon when I started to make this movie.
SG: But its been growing, Big Love was popular, and theyve become more well known than at the time when Joyce was dealing with them. Is it relevant that theyve become more public?
EM: Well, its certainly socially relevant in the fact that we have two people, two major candidates who are running for president who are Mormon. That in itself makes it relevant.
SG: Could it have happened before?
EM: I dont know. I dont know if I have a simple answer to that. Certainly Romney has been a presidential candidate for a while now. Hes not new but the idea that there are two, maybe more, Mormons vying for the presidency is an interesting phenomenon and it is something new.
SG: Do you feel the lessons of SOP and The Fog of War been taken since your movies came out?
EM: No. Not really. I think everything I do is connected. Its not as if these are separate discreet [topics]. They are, but they arent. Theres the same kind of concerns and interests in this movie as in The Fog of War or SOP .
SG: If you were still working on
SOP when you found out Seal Team 6 killed bin Laden, would that have affected the film?
EM: Not really. What is interesting is that Eric Holder, the attorney general of the United States, last week has opened an inquiry into the death of al-Jamadi which is the central murder in the middle of SOP. So that is still ongoing.
Tabloid opens July 15.