Suicide is self-expression...Express yourself

Listening to my fav song by Type O for a reason,Fuck this post makes no sense ,its either post and get this shit off my chest or punch a fucking hole in the walll.I'm sure you all will make me regret posting this when I sober up.
Seriously though,do you think its a cop out or honorable.I'd love to say the latter but my friend killed himself awhile ago(hanging) and within 6 months it seemed most ppl forgot he existed.
Its almost like you can throw a big stone in the water(suicide) but the ripples in the water soon dissappear....i don't know ...i'm just dealing with something now...g'nite....

P.S. please don't bash as hard as the idiot with the 3 month per girl post..

[Edited on Jan 02, 2003 by eviln]

i don't really think it's either...a cop out, or honorable...

for me, my own thoughts of suicide came from wanting to have control. i'm a huge control freak...i'm actually afraid of dying, and the main reason is b/c it's pretty much the only thing that we have absolutely NO control over. EVERYONE is going to die, no matter what. by commiting suicide, i can have some control over the situation- i can control when, where, and how i die, at least. if i feel 'out of control' for any reason, my thoughts sometimes turn to suicide.

i would like to mention that i have no intention of killing myself. my thoughts are that i gave up the 'right' to suicide as soon as i had a child.

I thiink suicide is a cop out, when you haven't weathered though whole shit loads of pain and despair. Then you're taking the easy way out.

But theres then on the other hand I can also believe suicide is a bioloigical self-destruct swith. When your subconscious decides that your not worth anything to society (i.e. low self-esteem). so it removes you for the sake of the group. Thats the reason that I believe my uncle committed suicide. he felt like he was a burden to those around him.

So thats how I keep from killing myself.
1. I haven't truly lived, and I have a bigger fear of missing the party.
2. That maybe my subconscious is out to get me, that maybe it thinks that I'm not pulling my wieght. So in defience I will perservere.

Now if I make it to 45-50 and I'm still a pathetic loser I will probably throw the towel in.

The only way you can really seriously consider suicide is if you're already convinced there's no reason for anything. I mean, if you believed in some sort of Divine Plan, you wouldn't dare fly in the face of it, would you? So, lets operate from the assumption that, like me, you're an existentialist.

Fine. There's no point. There is no essence which precedes our ---sssshhhhlooockkkk---!!! into existence. We become aware of our surroundings as we grow, and our biggest struggle as human beings is with the arbitrary nature of the whole shebang.

Now, a lot of people take that to mean they can ethically duck out on the whole thing. In fact, this was one of the main criticisms of Existentialism when it was first proposed. They tend to think this because, well, if God doesn't exist, and there's no master plan, then anything is permissible. Thank you, Dosteyevsky; Human beings are forlorn and dreadfully alone. Heh, am I cheering you up yet?

Well, see, the thing is: That's really a misunderstanding of existentialist doctrine, and its pretty short-sighted. One should find it quite embarrassing that God doesn't exist, really. If there is no God, there is no Good except for that which we construct ourselves.

But that does nothing except shift the emphasis from God, to us as human beings.

"If indeed existence precedes essence, one will never be able to explain one's action by reference to a given and specific human nature; in other words, there is no determinism - man is free, man IS freedom. ... We are left alone, without excuse. That is what I mean when I say that man is condemned to be free. Condemned, because he did not create himself, yet is nevertheless at liberty, and from the moment that he is thrown into this world he is responsible for everything he does." [Sartre, 'Existentialism and Humanism']

What's most important to realize is that human beings have an ethical obligation to take on that burden, in the absence of God. If you accept or believe that there is no God - no absolute, objective standard by which to measure our actions - then it is imperative that you shoulder that burden yourself. If this truly did not make sense to you, you would be unable to function within society, as there would never be anything except lying, cheating, and stealing going on. [note: all people lie, cheat or steal at some point. I'm saying that that's ALL you would do.] If you acknowledge that you have this ethical burden, then it should be a quick, safe step from there to the realization that you have a duty, as a socialized human being, to promote those burdensome duties to the best of your ability. Every single moment of your life should - in an ideal situation - be devoted to trying to live your life in the best possible fashion, in whatever circumstances this sometimes harsh reality can throw your way.

In other words, the moment you accept the validity of human society, you have the duty to work in its interests. One might argue that the best thing one can do for society is to remove one's self from it.

Well, if things have gotten so bad that you feel this way, then we need to examine your options:

1. You could die.
2. You could live.

Only in ONE of these scenarios are you able to continue furthering the interests of human society. Only in ONE of these scenarios can you help those in need, perform random acts of kindness, and spread love and peace.

To answer your question: There is absolutely nothing honourable about suicide. It is, in fact, not just a cop-out, but a shameful act of selfishness. People who have committed suicide have robbed their society of the energy that went into feeding, nurturing, educating, and loving them. There are so many more productive alternatives, which can help those around you. If you are trapped in a cycle of despair and anguish, realize that there are alternatives, and changes you can make to your life - even radical ones - which will provide you with a more ethically acceptable route than self-destruction.

it's a selfish cop-out, which is why no-one of stable mind does it. Just for a start, think of the poor fucker that's got to clean up your body.

you know i have been in both spots..and sometime si still want to die...i also have helped people from killing themselves..yeha it's selfish...but how do you know what is going on in that person's head..how do you know the pain their in...it's terrible at times....and most of the time it's cuase of a disease...like manic depression of bi-polar....and those are not fucking cop outs on being depressed those are real..fuck i have manic myself(thus wanting to end it)it's just yeah..people need to see it's the other persons view before they shove theirs down the person who is suicidals throat..cause they don't need that....what they need is an ear to listen to them and someone to watch out for them..and thanks for letting me ramble

Hmm. I was wondering when someone was going to mention this topic.

I've seriously thought of all the ramifications of suicide, having experienced a great loss because of it at an early age, and having gone through my own demons. Yes, it is an act of self-expression, but it's also very selfish. I'm not exactly religious, but who can say that they really know for sure what happens in "the end"? Perhaps there is a purgatory-like state, or perhaps you may be reincarnated as a cockroach.

It's also the grass is greener theory that keeps me from seriously doing it. Who knows? Maybe it would be just an easy thing to do, but I don't even think that I am *enough* of a coward to do it. However, the masochism of waiting and seeing what's going to happen from all the pain and growth of life situations, well, you end up being that much of a better person for having survived and weathered it, no? And Prudence made a good point about giving up the right to do it when you have kids.

Forgive me for rambling, it is too early in the morning!

[Edited on Jan 02, 2003 by elisabeth]

No-one really forgets whn someone dies, you remembered the dude, didn't you? so the riplles continue...People live on as long as others hold their memory. You're keeping the guy's memory alive.

You all would hate me if you knew what I wrote...

[Edited on Jan 02, 2003 by kombo]

Hey, take it from someone who's actually entertained thoughts of it lately... what's the point in doing yourself in? You don't learn anything from life that way. Yes, it is copping out, yes, it is incredibly selfish- and yes, a shitload of people simply want to get the fuck out of here. But as shitty as life can be, it can also be fuckin' awesome- you simply have to be willing to work for it. Look at me- right now I'm having a really rough go of things- and yes, I have thought about it- but I know that things will change. The key is to simply remember that in life, nothing is permanent- things are always changing. Hang on to that, and things are bound to get better for you- it's not like they could get any worse.

I love that phrase.

Go figure. Type O is one of my all time favorite bands.

[Edited on Jan 02, 2003 by Lesa]

Disclaimer: I had a long bus ride yesterday and today so I amused myself by reading The Fountainhead STRAIGHT through.

Come on, don't advocate submission to society's will here of all places. This is where I come to get away from society. I think that someone considering suicide because of despair is tragic, but saying that they owe a debt to society that needs to be repaid isn't a good reason to live. For one thing, the main reason not to commit suicide under this reason is that it's shameful and society looks down on it. However, a person who feels abandoned enough by society to contemplate suicide probably won't be the most receptive audience to this, plus once a person is dead the rules and opinions of society cease to have any releveance, presumably at least.

Also I'm assuming that this debt can never be repaid in your opinion, or else people would be free to off themselves once they reached a certain age or made a significant contribution to society. If we really were living under an inescapable debt like that, I'd have killed myself long ago. No, I don't think that a person's past actions such as acknowledging the validity of society impose a long-lasting burden. The way I see it a person is free at any time to revoke their contract with society either by ceasing to obey its standards or by committing suicide.

Of course this action, like any other, has its consequences. A person who is not willing to accept the consequences of their actions should not make them in the first place. That is the path I follow, to take whatever I want from life...and then pay for it. I can't speak for anyone else here, but I'm fully supportive of selfishness. Everyone must satisfy their own needs first. Everyone does of course, but too many people feel guilty for it. If you want to try selflessness, share your food equally with every starving person in the world for a week and see what happens. I think that obeying society's wishes at the expense of one's own is a recipe for disaster, since you become unhappy by definition when you deny yourself happiness to conform to society's ideals. Unhappy people are a lot more likely to commit suicide.

Anyway I'm not saying "go kill yourself" but I don't think the standard existentialist answer is a good one for why we should live. My personal reason for living most closely resembles "Why not?" Living things naturally tend to remain living unless an outside force acts on them, aka the law of inertia applied to existance. If there is no divine plan, I don't hold high hopes for an afterlife. In that case, I want to make the most of my time alive since sometime in the near future I'm going to die and lose any chance to be alive ever again. I'll take a lot of pain to recieve a few happy moments, because I forget the pain and remember the good looking back on it later. I haven't had even a month of truly happy moments in my entire life put together, but I still don't regret being born. If I retain some concept of memory after my body's death, I want to look back on as much happiness in my life as possible. If on the other hand I won't be aware after my death, soon any amount of suffering (and everything else) won't matter, so why not stick it out for a few more days, months, years or decades?

To anyone who's seriously considering suicide: Don't. Your life must suck pretty badly to consider death as a pleasant alternative, but as corny as it sounds, there is still hope. Think of it this way, a normal healthy happy adult has two main things to lose in this world, his happiness and his life. You on the other hand don't have much or any happiness in yours, but that doesn't mean you never will. There must be something in this world that makes you at least slightly happy, so find it and do it. Really, what do you have to lose? Your life? If you're contemplating suicide already, you wouldn't mind much if you died. Why not die attempting to scale Mt. Everest, if that's what you always wanted to do, instead of overdosing on pills or turning the wall behind your head into a Rorshach with a shotgun? Fuck what society wants and do what you have to in order to survive. Hate your job? Quit and work your dream job, even if it pays less. Bad break-up? Learn to be happy by yourself, even if it's scary at first. And if it works out, if you succeed and do achieve happiness, well that's something to live for. If not you're not a bit worse off than before. Live, what do you have to lose?

Not to downplay what anyone has said or to offend anyone...but talk of suicide bores me.

Of course most of the time it is a cop out.

The sad part is that the majority of those who kill themselves have some of the worst reasons for doing so. They have no clue what real pain or hardships are. It's beginning to become almost the "cool" thing to do. Life got you down a little, why not kill yourself! A bunch of whining teenagers who really never deserved to live in the first place or people who think just because they lost their job its the end of the world...forgetting about the family or friends they are leaving behind. Say what you will, but sometimes I think the only mistake some suiciders make is not killing themselves sooner.

I'll apologize now for anyone who knew someone who killed themselves, as you'll probably get on my case for trivializing their deaths. I'm not trying to say the above is true for everyone or trivialize any death, but definetly more then a few suicides I feel apply to my thoughts above.

On a side note, I also don't like how people assume it's so easy to just drop everything and "do what you love" or anything along those lines. It really would be nice to forget about trying to make enough money to have a place to live, eat, etc. But the reality is in our world today, especially in the US, you can't. We haven't been able to for a long time.

I think the whole key to your statement is the "people who experience true mental illness". You are absolutely right about what you say if those people are truly in a different state of mind. Obviously if your working in the conditions you mention then those suicides would likely be justified in a sense.

Except I dont think that everyone who kills themselves can be categorized (not really a good word to use, but I can't think of a different way to say it) into that group.

It isn't easy, it's hard as hell. Especially if you're worried about little details like having a place to live or enough to eat. To starve to death in America would be a tragedy, but it wouldn't make you any less dead than if you jumped off a bridge. The fact that you still value these things tells me that you're probably not suicidal, which is a very good thing.

Oh and I completely agree with what Snow said about the people who are mentally ill. I wouldn't expect someone to run sprints with a broken leg and I wouldn't expect them to make responisble decisions with a chemical imbalance either. Of course most of the suicidal people I knew didn't have a chemical condition, but I've never worked in a mental hospital. I'm planning on it when I graduate, but I might change my mind in the meantime.

I have complete sympathy with anyone who is so depressed that they want to kill themselves. It's a horrible thing. But I don't believe in romanticizing it either, and that's what I think our society has done to a large extent. Being mentally ill has been made fashionable, and I hate that. It's not fun, pretty, or sexy when you are actually that sick. People who are need help, and they usually don't want to die, they just want someone to care.
Other than that, well, if you really want to off yourself, do it. Just don't expect me to feel bad for you, because I've had horrible things happen to me too, and I didn't shoot myself.
And Prudence's point is right on. This is one of the reasons that I tire of the endless obsession with Nirvana and the complaints that people have about Courtney Love wanting some of the money from the sale of Nirvana memorabilia. Does anyone remember the little girl that he left behind? If you've got kids, you owe it to them to stick it out. Whatever you might think is unlivable, does it compare to living a life wondering why Mommy or Daddy didn't love you enough to stay alive?

love is suicide

well, I think it's rare for a person to have never even thought about it. Maybe not seriously, but I know almost all of you have thought about it at one time or another.

hmm,some people are made for suicide....thats always nice to hear...

you know that is fucked no one is made for suicide..and it is a fucking cold thing to say...and usual ignorant people say that..or at least so in my experiences...
no one is made for it...unless their void of soul...

some people like my oldest brother just want the demons in his head ot stop haunting him..it's not their fault their there.it 's natures cruel trick on them..grrrrrrr

[Edited on Jan 02, 2003 by DemiGauge]

[Edited on Jan 02, 2003 by DemiGauge]

and marla what do you really mean when you said some people are made for suicde?