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UpTight

UpTight

I'm lost
December 2003

APR 29, 2006 03:29 PM

when the victims aren't Jews or Westerners....

Classic chutzpah from the Pizza House bombing Palestinian leadership.

Also, bear in mind, only days ago Hamas tried to justify the suicide bombing of a felafel restaurant in Israel as an act of self-defence....

from A.P.

When terrorists blew themselves up in Egypt's Sinai Peninsula this week, the radical Palestinian group Hamas quickly joined Arab governments and Western leaders in condemning a "criminal attack against all human values."

Egypt's banned Muslim Brotherhood called the bombings "aggression on human souls created by God."

The denunciations were unexpectedly harsh from the Islamic fundamentalist groups — Hamas has killed hundreds of Israeli civilians in suicide bombings, and the Brotherhood is determined to impose an Islamic government — but experts agree that radical Muslim organizations want to distance themselves from al-Qaida.

The widening rift largely has not been acknowledged among Western powers, who tend to lump Islamic radicals together. The U.S. list of "Foreign Terrorist Organizations," for example, puts al-Qaida with Hamas and the Lebanese-based Hezbollah.

Scholars of Islamic movements and some Western policy-makers, however, say distinctions now must be made between hard-line Islamist organizations and "holy warrior" groups such as
Osama bin Laden's terror network.

"There is a fundamental difference between Islamic groups: Most are sociopolitical reformists, others are religious extremists," said Dia'a Rashwan, an Egyptian expert on radical groups.

Hamas and Hezbollah, for example, have national agendas, he said. They want to reorganize society according to Sharia, or Islamic law.

Extremist religious movements such as al-Qaida are international revolutionaries who excoriate not only non-Muslims but also Muslims who fail to follow their views. Theirs is a holy war to spread their views among Muslims and to repel any "infidel invasion" of Islamic lands.

"Branding these two branches of radicalism the same way, as terrorist organizations, reflects a complete misunderstanding of the issue," he said.

Rashwan said the confusion was a "fatal mistake" of the Bush administration in its war on terror.

He said that to fight an enemy, one had to define it correctly: "America doesn't, and this is why it is losing the war on terrorism."

U.S. policy makers and the State Department did not respond to requests by The Associated Press for comment.

Leaders from both branches of radical Islam frequently join in a call to destroy
Israel and form an Islamic superstate of all Muslim countries.

But the similarities are mostly rhetorical, said Jon Alterman, director of the Middle East program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington-based think tank.

"The rift is widening, partly because most governments have become more open to engaging in a dialogue with hard-line Islamic voices if they give up violence," he said in a telephone interview.

And in most Muslim countries, he said, the population has been more willing to engage with national radicals than with "millennial" movements that view Israel and the West as apocalyptic enemies. In Lebanon, for example, al-Qaida-style groups had little support, but Hezbollah became the leading political force among Shiite Muslims, he said.

By cracking down on al-Qaida but allowing more freedom to political groups like the Muslim Brotherhood — a rising force in Egypt with more than 80 lawmakers in Parliament — Arab states were in effect "creating more daylight" between revolutionary and reformist radicals, he said.

"Realistically, part of the U.S. policy is influenced by the attitude of host countries," Alterman said.

Washington is more willing to engage with a group if local authorities already have, like in Morocco, where the national government opened talks with the Justice and Development Party but rejected other hard-line groups. The United States has largely followed the same line, he said.

The current halt in attacks by the likes of Hamas, which won Palestinian legislative elections and formed a new government last month, however, left a vacuum that is being filled by other radical groups, such as Islamic Jihad, a competing Palestinian group. It has claimed responsibility for eight suicide attacks against Israel since a cease-fire declaration last year.

Israeli media also have reported mounting signs that al-Qaida had designs on the Jewish state as a next battleground. Israeli officials said recently that Palestinians have established contacts with followers of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaida in
Iraq. The officials also said al-Zarqawi had established footholds in neighboring countries —
Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan.

Yet many Mideast watchers see a political motive.

"Quite a few observers believe Israel tends to overstate al-Qaida links to Palestinian terrorism because they want to be seen as equal victims of a global movement against the West," said Jeremy Binnie of Jane's Terrorism and Insurgency Center in London.

On the other hand, nationalist groups do not want to see their more militant members joining the international jihadists, said Hugh Roberts, Egypt director of the International Crisis Group think tank.

"Palestinian groups are already highly organized and well-rooted organizations. They are very well placed to prevent al-Qaida from getting a solid foothold," Roberts said.

Al-Qaida's murky structure also is misleading, experts say.

Some attacks first blamed on al-Qaida, such as the March 2004 train bombings in Madrid, have since been linked to local groups with only nominal links to bin Laden's umbrella terror network.

Still, the recent blasts in Egypt show that al-Qaida-type influences continue to spread in the Muslim world.

Though Egyptian authorities blamed last week's five bombings — three on a Sinai resort and two targeting international peacekeepers and police — on semi-nomadic Bedouin tribesmen who populate the Sinai Peninsula, most experts say international jihadists likely played a role. The blasts killed 21 people, most of them Muslims.

"It's hard to think that a homegrown group of Bedouins could have, on its own, operated such complex and synchronized bombings," even with know-how gathered on the Internet, Binnie said.

"The level of organization these attacks" demonstrated several al-Qaida trademarks, Roberts said.

Since November's attacks on a Jordanian hotel that killed more than 60, al-Qaida has increasingly been criticized for killing civilians. And when bin Laden issued an audiotape earlier this month, many observers said his new call to support Palestinians against "Zionists" and "crusaders" was a move to boost declining popularity in the Muslim world.

dpalmacci

dpalmacci

Leominster, MA
April 2006

APR 29, 2006 04:13 PM

I think this should be a start to us, the "West", on educating ourselves on who we're actually fighting. Not saying that Hamas is the equivelant of buddhist monks, but my point is.. I am pleased to see and know that who we once thought were allies of Al Qaeda (Hamas, etc.) are in fact totally against the philosophy of Al Qaeda.

Take a time out and instead of approaching every party in the middle east with a clenched fist, perhaps do it with an open hand and talk about everyone's position.

poolboy6

poolboy6

Stroudsburg, PA
April 2006

APR 29, 2006 05:29 PM

It's all about education. Shortly before my trip to Afghanistan, I started doing a LOT of research into AQ and the like. I learned so much more than the TV tells us.

There are a lot of people who are educating themselves, and fortunately, good number of the people on the ground in Afghanistan have done so. The higher up the food chain, well...

I've met a lot of really good people in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

I've also met some really bad people.

Education is good. Too bad the dozen or so companies dictating what most people see and hear make that difficult.

NickFaust

NickFaust

USA
April 2004

APR 29, 2006 07:07 PM

You know, Albitard, I am sure you have a point here.

Why not just make it?

MessyJessy

MessyJessy

Fort Myers, FL
August 2005

APR 29, 2006 07:10 PM

I love how I can almost always pick out what threads were started by you just by reading the title...

Keith

Keith

Oklahoma City, OK
August 2002

APR 29, 2006 07:13 PM

So? We bomb people, and yet we still bitch when we don't like who other people bomb. They're not bitching about the method, they're bitching about the target. We do the same thing all the time. We execute people, and yet we bitch about who other countries execute. These may be horrid people for completely valid reasons, but I don't see what's hypocritical about this.


JohnClement

JohnClement

Silver Spring, MD
January 2004

APR 29, 2006 07:16 PM

MessyJessy said:
I love how I can almost always pick out what threads were started by you just by reading the title...


Same here

grahf

grahf

New York, NY
September 2002

APR 29, 2006 08:16 PM

Keith said:
So? We bomb people, and yet we still bitch when we don't like who other people bomb. They're not bitching about the method, they're bitching about the target. We do the same thing all the time. We execute people, and yet we bitch about who other countries execute. These may be horrid people for completely valid reasons, but I don't see what's hypocritical about this.


Cue UpChuck accusing you of drawing a moral equivalence between the US and terrorists in
3...
2...
1...

llouys

llouys

Brazil
August 2003

APR 29, 2006 08:46 PM

As much as I don't go for being uninformed in the Who's Who of Terrorism, it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't change the fact that Hamas are a bunch of murderous fucktards.


Just sayin.

poolboy6

poolboy6

Stroudsburg, PA
April 2006

APR 29, 2006 08:59 PM

Hamas hasn't shown me that they are trying to accomplish their goals through nonviolence.

It's like they want to have their cake and eat it too...

UpTight

UpTight

I'm lost
December 2003

APR 30, 2006 06:22 AM

grahf said:

Keith said:
So? We bomb people, and yet we still bitch when we don't like who other people bomb. They're not bitching about the method, they're bitching about the target. We do the same thing all the time. We execute people, and yet we bitch about who other countries execute. These may be horrid people for completely valid reasons, but I don't see what's hypocritical about this.



Cue UpChuck accusing you of drawing a moral equivalence between the US and terrorists in
3...
2...
1...



Do I ACTUALLY NEED TO? He's done all the work himself:

"We do the same thing all the time"

I don't need to question his position, I need to slam him for it...but tide of liberal lunacy takes its toll and these days I find it hard to bother.

Keith

Keith

Oklahoma City, OK
August 2002

APR 30, 2006 08:21 AM

I would never draw a moral equivalence between the US and terrorists...


SPOILERS! (Click to view)
...by any rational measure, the US does far more harm than any terrorist organization.



Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

APR 30, 2006 09:10 AM

NickFaust said:
Albitard


When did I leave the SG boards and find myself on the Yahoo news boards?

_Elichrusos

_Elichrusos

Australia
November 2004

APR 30, 2006 10:01 AM

UpTight said:

grahf said:

Keith said:
So? We bomb people, and yet we still bitch when we don't like who other people bomb. They're not bitching about the method, they're bitching about the target. We do the same thing all the time. We execute people, and yet we bitch about who other countries execute. These may be horrid people for completely valid reasons, but I don't see what's hypocritical about this.



Cue UpChuck accusing you of drawing a moral equivalence between the US and terrorists in
3...
2...
1...



Do I ACTUALLY NEED TO? He's done all the work himself:

"We do the same thing all the time"

I don't need to question his position, I need to slam him for it...but tide of liberal lunacy takes its toll and these days I find it hard to bother.


Explain to me, the poor uneducated foreigner, how you can see a difference between Shock and Awe tactics and terrorism?

Andvari

Andvari

Calgary, AB
April 2005

APR 30, 2006 12:48 PM

Shock and Awe vs. terrorism

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

At face value, the doctrine of shock and awe shares much in common with the tenets of terrorism, with both intending to affect political outcomes through non-traditional uses of military power. American supporters of Shock and Awe claim that unlike terrorism, Shock and Awe does not deliberately target civilians, although civilians could be killed. Critics however, point to the difficulty in reducing civilian casualties while bombing locations with high civilian population density.

Furthermore, many have argued that the label of terrorism does not hinge on civilian casualities, as terror can be elicited through many other means as well. One historical example is the terrorist group, the Weather Underground Organization of the United States, which conducted an extensive domestic bombing campaign for many years against government and corporate property without killing a single person, through the use of extensive prior warnings and strategically flamboyant targets. Such attacks are clearly intended to elicit terror, in that case among the state and corporate apparatus itself, as well as to build a domestic insurgency, as stated in the claims of responsibility issued by the WUO, and so clearly fall under the realm of terrorism.

Excluding considerations of moral supremacy, it is difficult to determine if Shock and Awe is empirically different from terrorism, as both tactics' primary goal is to elicit terror, shock and awe. The words "shock" and "awe" are in fact both synonyms of "terror."


_Elichrusos

_Elichrusos

Australia
November 2004

APR 30, 2006 01:47 PM

Thank you! I'd only intended it as a rhetorical question; actually getting an answer is a bonus.

bean

bean

STAFF

Los Angeles, CA

APR 30, 2006 01:57 PM

NickFaust said:
You know, Albitard, I am sure you have a point here.

Why not just make it?


You know, it would be perfectly easy for you to ask him what his point was without calling him "Albitard."

I'm a bit curious about what his point was, too, but I don't feel the need to call him names over it.

BatAttaK

BatAttaK

Tacoma, WA
OLD SKOOL

APR 30, 2006 02:06 PM

UpTight changed his name to "UpTard" yesterday. I took it simply as a play on that.

Andvari

Andvari

Calgary, AB
April 2005

APR 30, 2006 02:28 PM

Elichrusos said:
Thank you! I'd only intended it as a rhetorical question; actually getting an answer is a bonus.



I live to serve. Well, not really. wink

AdamJ

AdamJ

Revere, MA
February 2005

APR 30, 2006 04:43 PM

As the saying goes, even monkeys fall out of trees, so even people who condone or iniate terrorism will occasionally denounce other terrorist acts. It is nothing noteworthy, just another excuse for UpAlbion to rant about some damn thing.

NickFaust

NickFaust

USA
April 2004

APR 30, 2006 05:46 PM

bean said:

NickFaust said:
You know, Albitard, I am sure you have a point here.

Why not just make it?


You know, it would be perfectly easy for you to ask him what his point was without calling him "Albitard."

I'm a bit curious about what his point was, too, but I don't feel the need to call him names over it.



In the time that I have known him - Uptight has changed is user name from Albion, to Uptight, to Uptard (which is what he was calling himself when this thread was posted).

I am not sure why he feels the need to do this, but he does.

So, as long as he feels the need to post under different handles, I will feel free to make fun of him for doing so.

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

APR 30, 2006 06:12 PM

That's a pretty truncated list. I've seen at least four or five others, including "UpAlbion" and "UpZot".

grahf

grahf

New York, NY
September 2002

APR 30, 2006 08:32 PM

I often wonder if his purpose is to make it harder for people to attribute posts to him after the fact. Since when you quote someone it only gives their current member name and doesn't update dynamically, he must leave behind a massive number of dead links. Given the usual content of his posts, I wonder if that confers some evolutionay advantage so to speak.

However, I suspect it's actually just because he's all:

bean

bean

STAFF

Los Angeles, CA

MAY 01, 2006 03:19 AM

NickFaust said:

bean said:

NickFaust said:
You know, Albitard, I am sure you have a point here.

Why not just make it?


You know, it would be perfectly easy for you to ask him what his point was without calling him "Albitard."

I'm a bit curious about what his point was, too, but I don't feel the need to call him names over it.



In the time that I have known him - Uptight has changed is user name from Albion, to Uptight, to Uptard (which is what he was calling himself when this thread was posted).

I am not sure why he feels the need to do this, but he does.

So, as long as he feels the need to post under different handles, I will feel free to make fun of him for doing so.


Fair enough. I hadn't seen the "Uptard" version of his name, and thought you were mutating his name into an insult to play on the fact that he changes his name so frequently. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

dpalmacci

dpalmacci

Leominster, MA
April 2006

MAY 02, 2006 08:13 PM

bean said:

NickFaust said:
You know, Albitard, I am sure you have a point here.

Why not just make it?


You know, it would be perfectly easy for you to ask him what his point was without calling him "Albitard."

I'm a bit curious about what his point was, too, but I don't feel the need to call him names over it.



/agree

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