NEWS: US Clusterfuck in Iraq Runs Dry

POLITICS: US Clusterfuck in Iraq Runs Dry

The war America started in Iraq -- to remove a dictator that we put in place, to protect ourselves from WMDs that didn't exist, and to shield us from Al Qaeda, who weren't in Iraq -- blunders onward, with no end in sight. Meanwhile, the money to reconstruct the country has run dry.

And it's not just the acid-crazed Dems and Liberals that can't understand why the US government can't seem to do anything right in Iraq. For example:

The biggest problem? Security. The effort to protect the contractors responsible for rebuilding Iraq costs a lot of money, and has soaked up funds meant for public works. The International Monetary Fund, in a recent review of Iraq's economic status, pointed out:

In other words, the combined forces of the US and British military have failed in Iraq to create a secure environment, which is the first prerequisite of constructing a country, its infrastructure, and a decent democracy.

Recently President Bush signed a 51.8 million dollar aid package for Katrina, promising survivors that the federal government "is going to be with you for the long haul." But can we trust Bush's promises? He said the same thing about aid for Iraq, which is now gone; about a swift and victorious end to the war there, which still hasn't happened; about our commitment to rebuilding Afghanistan, which is non-existent; about firing anyone who leaked the name of a covert CIA operative, which Rove appears to have done, and on and on. Furthermore, the flooding in New Orleans is the direct result of the money to repair the levees going to fund -- you guessed it -- the war in Iraq. If we hadn't gone to war to get the foreign WMDs that didn't exist, we could have saved a great American city that did. It's gone now. Who needs Al Qaeda when we have George W. wiping out an entire American city by himself? No modern American leader has done more to undermine the credibility of the United States, and done less for the people he vows to help and protect, including the citizens of this country.

Everything's getting more and more fucked up.

Hahaha! Oh man, that needs to be on a shirt!

Heres a big motherfuck of an idea, how about you contract some Iraqi companies who employ Iraqis (at a fraction of the wages of US companies) to build Iraqi infrastructure!

That way, the stuff gets built, the economy grows, and the people who are building shit have a fucking job instead of sitting around making roadside bombs for money that perpetuate the instability of the country ad infinitum.

But nooooooooooooo, we might have to give money to someone else to fix the shit we blew up, instead of dumping money into the big military industrial complex / service & construction agency corporate circle jerk.

Agreed.

The last sentence in this article says it all.

Had Bush just fucked up once or twice, that's understandable.

But Bush fucks up all the time. Since 2000 it's been one disaster after another, and Bush never seems to want to talk about any of it. He says one thing, but never lives up to it. He doesn't have a lot to say, but he has plenty to hide.

He's never in the press room, he's always on vacation, he displays a lot of pride and never guilt.

Money doesnt exist.

Sure. Spend 51.8 Billion dollars. Where is this actual money coming from? It's all made up, an arbitrary number. "Borrowed" from a hundred countries too poor or ill-equipped to say no.

And when the US runs out of bullets...theyll run out of money and people to take it from.

Period.

There seem to be
Lots
of problems
with American
money in Iraq.

Those are the first four hits you get if you Google for mismanagement of US funds in Iraq.

See, this gets to the reason why I disagreed with the Iraq War Part 2. Not that I thought Saddam wasn't a horrible guy, not that I didn't think that Democracy wasn't an inspiring idea. No, I just had a feeling that we weren't going to be able to do it right, and in the course of floundering around create a completely unstable Iraq which would become, among other things, a breeding ground for the extremism that we supported Saddam to resist in the first place!
I'm tired of being embarrassed by my president.

Well siting the fact that the Guardian is your source, I am not completly inclined to belive what I read there. This is because of the fact that they are a UK based newspaper who mailed out letters to people in ohio trying to sway the outcome of the last presidential election. So there in they have shown that they are very anti Bush.

If some one doesnt like the guy I have no problem with that, but in the first place what buisness does a BRITISH news paper have trying to infulence the outcome of a Presidential election in the UNITED STATES?

That being said it is obvious that they woudnt want anything to work out for the guy while he is in office, and would most likely do everything in thier power to undermine what ever he does.

As far as hurricaine Katrina goes, I have developed a time line on my web site at > http://www.schismatic-god.com/Katrinatimeline.htm I have not updated it since the 5th but you can look through the sources there and see that what really caused this whole ordeal is the fact that the Mayor didnt follow the evacuation plan, and is ultimatly responsible.

It is my oppinion that between he and the governer fighting with each other. As well the mayor has some screws loose, he publically said that he felt that the CIA was going to take him out for making derogatory comments about Bush. I dont think that this guy has any reason running a major city anywhere, it is completly obvious to me that he is inedpt. As well the fact that he didnt get a mandatory evacuation order out untill 18 hours before the sotrm hit! That isnt enough time to evacuate a major us city like NOLA as well, the director of the national hurricaine center called the mayor the day prior and urged him to get people out of there because of the storm bearing down on them.

I would think that when the director of the national hurricaine center calls you personally, somthing he has only done once before, when you are the mayor of a major city and tells you that the big one is headed for you, dont you think at that point that it would be a good idea to start acting. As well with that 48 hours notice they could have taken measures to save that city. flooding is one thing, but in that time they could have shut off and drianed gas lines, shut down the power grid so as that fires didnt start, but no not a thing was done, and the disaster management plan was not utilised and this is why you have so much carnage and desturction in that city.

More so when it comes to the devastaion from the flooding, I would have to say that the responsibility there lies with the city governement as well. They have known for 20 years that this could be a reality. OR basically the majority of my life span. Thus if you are going to dish out blame on a presidential level for this you have to blame Presidents Regan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush II. Really though, the city of new orleans created the infastructure that allowed them to build the city there in that location, I feel as though they should have been ultimately responsible for making sure that it could handle this situaiton.

When it comes to the situation in Iraq, there is source after source after source trying to way lay the progress there. Both foreign and domestic. I view the worst part of the problems with the reconstruction in Iraq being that there are so many people here in the United States whom are rooting for us to fail there, doing everything that they can to stand in the way of the process that is required to do what is nessicary to get the job done IE. putting our troops on trial for shooting an enemy combatant and other such nonsene that has gone on over there.

I feel as though if every one would get on board and get it into thier heads that we as a country are commited to this course of action that we would be more effective in getting this process done. The reson for this is as I see it, Bush is in a pretty tough predicament right now, not only does he have to deal with the situation in Iraq, but he has to deal with working with the powers that be here who are trying to impede the process in any way that they can. Rebuilding Iraq for sure is not an easy job, It is not one that I would want to be responsible for. And quite frankly I would have it handled differently, but it isnt my decision to make. That decision lies in the officials that we elected into office, and not just President Bush, Our Senat and Congress as a whole.

I for one am so sick of watching the Democrats and the Republicans go back and forth over and over back biting and fighting with each other that it makes me sick (I am a registered independant) Everyone as far as I am concerned needs to work about getting along a bit more and making compramise to actually get things accomplished. Everyone has become so obsessed with pushing thier ajendas that the scope of taking care of the big issues as a whole has been left alone and not delt with.

What I mean here is this: The left and the right all have thier issues that they are pushing for the special intrest groups that support them, IE. Stem cell research, gay marrage, Prayer in schools, the words "Under god" and so on. I personally think that before we start tackleing these things we should take a good hard look at the things that really need to be payed attention to, such as the cumbleing interstate system, expecially in states such as Illinois and California where the State Governemnt has spent the money allocated to rebuild and expand the road structrure on other projects. As well there are public safety issues in the gulf coast like new orleans that need to be tended to.

Personally I think that taking care of these kind of things is just a little bit more important than worrying about weahter or not scientists are experimenting on a dead baby fetus, or weather or not we say "Under god" in the pledge of alegence.

I am of the opinion that the reson that these issues are not being tended to is the fact that politicans and I do mean all politicians cater to who ever is funding thier campaign chests. It isnt about what is best for america any more, washignton has become nothing more than a huge power stuggle to see to what speccial intrest groups get caterd to first, and which ones get left in the dust.

So Instead of sititng around blaming Preisident George W. Bush for all of our probolems, how about we all get off our asses, look at the facts and really take a good hard look at our governement as a whole and start voting in people that are going to take care of problems and not push thier personal bullshit ajendas? The probem is more than just a man, the problem is very wide spread. It is going to take wide spread movement to make things better.

Heh. Three more years!

If that ain't enough to make you want to fix a Drano cocktail, well I just don't know what is.

Seriously though, I don't know the law on this, but can you do a Presidential recall vote? I've got money I'd give to that campaign.

Ok buddy Im trying to take what you are saying with an open mind.

So you are saying Mississippi ordered evacuations before the mayor of new orleans right?

Who ordered those evacuations?

Im thinking not the mayor of mississippi seeing that its a state.

So did all of the mayors get together and decide this?

This is why you think the mayor should be responsible?

If you think that the states should have been more coordinated dont you think the FEDERAL government would be more in a position to do this?

What sort of resources is it that you think a mayor has as his dispossal to evacuate 500,000 people? What is the point of having a federal government if it isnt handeling interstate disasters like this?

So lets say the mayor fucked up and he should have gotten all those people out and that ALL his fault somehow. How is he going to airlift food and water to people for relief? How is his police force going to restore order now that they are homeless and without supplys?

A mayor is not in a position to da any relief efforts in a town that is fully functioning let alone one that is 80% under water.

I think if you really consider it placing blame in a place that has no power to effect much change is pretty pointless.

Do you think the federal government did everything that could or should be done?

If you answer yes then I would say you are in the minority.

And to me it seems like a pretty callous and self serving minority.

Gladly, as per the 2000 edition of the southeast Louisiana evacuation plan on page 13, paragraph 5 states:

5. The primary means of hurricane evacuation will be personal vehicles. School and municipal buses, government-owned vehicles and vehicles provided by volunteer agencies may be used to provide transportation for individuals who lack transportation and require assistance in evacuating.

This was not done, however there were litterally hundreds of busses parked less than a mile from the super dome. It was the mayors responsibility to order these buses into action.

You can see them in this arial photo.



Notice that they are all flooded and useless now. These buses could have been used to evacuate people and get them the heck out of the the city, and thus completly prevented the situation at the superdome, or atleast lessend it by a land slide.

As well the reason that Mississippi did not have the devistation that NOLA did is that the Responsible parties did thier job and followed thier emergecny mangagement plans. They were on the ball and thus is why the devistation there is going to be nowhere near as bad as in NOLA.

I do think that the federal governement could have done more, however from the best understanding I can reach, the local government started fighting with FEMA and the director of FEMA was too inedpt to do his job and see to it that things were handled, it is he whom should have contacted the president and informed him that his itervention would be required. I think FEMA totally dropped the ball by not overiding the authority of the local and state gov there, however on the same note by the time they realised that this was going to be that kind of issue it was most likely too late do do anythign about it. And there for the feds probably did not step in because they did not want to assume responsibility for the mess that the Mayor and Governor really created. So really my oppinion that everything that was done was too little to late, and anything that the feds could have done woudl have been the same tune.

Allthough on another note, I think the president could have been in a better position to reckognise and deal with the problem if he were not stuck dealing with people like Cindy Shenan camped out at his ranch screaming jumping up and down, taking up his time figuring out how to deal with them.

I would have to say this is the case with allot of our government, that too much of it is so deeply entrenched in the politcal battles of today, that moving swiftly and effectively into doing anything is a complete and total imposibility!

Oh as well the mayor did not have to evacuate 500K peope he had roughly 20 - 30 k to deal with. That is what the busses were for

Good things that the government did was reversing the highways going to the city. This way people could get out at a more expediant rate, however it should have gone into effect days before, not 16 hours

Ok, I am going to type this once because I am sick of hearing this bullshit talking point with the flooded bus picture attached.

He did use the buses. He used the local city busses (they had seatbelts, AC, city employees at the helm, and know the entire city) to pick people up from 12 designated points around the city and take them to shelter.
They were free.

The super dome as was said about 100 times before the storm was a REFUGE OF LAST RESORT understand? Last resort means if you cant make it to other shelter for some reason you go to the super dome. The people who decided to go to the super dome did so past the time when it would have been safe to stick them on a bus and drive them out of the city, they could have been caught by the storm, not to mention the buses are not meant for long distance travel. There was less than 72 hours notice between the news it was a category 5 and when it hit land.

The asshole school bus picture is a bunch of right wing hogwash. They keep showing the picture of flooded school buses that had no drivers. School bus drivers are regular working people, most of them left the city because they were told to evacuate like everyone else.

I was under the impression that they couldn't find people to drive the busses...but that impression came to a screeching halt when I realized that significant numbers of the evacuees can drive.

I mean, I realize that driving a bus is different from driving a car, but if someone told you that your way out of the city was this fucking bus, couldn't you figure it out? And it's not like you wouldn't have backup...there are bound to be some people stuck there with enough experience in driving busses or busslike vehicles that they could walk you through some pointers if there is some sort of 4th pedal.

[Edited on Sep 10, 2005 9:31PM]

Can drive buses?

If that was a comment on my spelling...both are right, I believe.

If it was a comment on something else...well I added more... it's a bad habit of mine, adding as I think of things.

[Edited on Sep 10, 2005 9:35PM]

No, most people cant even drive a standard (a school bus has a shitload of gears on top of that)

It would be oh so responsible to tell people to drive around buses in bad weather and no experience handling a very large vehicle in a panic situation.

theres also the fact that the mayors office couldn't figure out if he had legal authority to claim the school buses.

Using the school buses was an impossibly bad idea that wouldn't work correctly on a perfectly normal day, let alone an emergency situation.
It also wouldn't have been such a great use of emergency resources if they had to send ambulances and fire crews to several accidents caused by school buses rolling over loaded with people, or crashing into things.

Out of all the decisions the mayor made that day, not using the school buses was one that any mayor in any city in the world would have made, and comparing it to sitting on your hands while people are dying of thirst and starving to death, or refusing to let people come to help, or leave to help themselves, etc. is a total non sequitur.

Speaking from the stand point of being a commercial carrier driver with a Class A interstate licence. A bus is the easiest of these platforms to operate. Most have hydraulic braking systems so as that you do not have to know and understand how air brakes work. They are stupid simple to operate with automatic transmissions, and by far are as close to an automobile you can get in a heavy duty vehicle. The only thing that really sets them apart is the fact that you are doing a much wider turning radius in them. If you can drive a motorhome you can drive one of these buses.

As well with 72 hours notice that the storm was going to hit, the Evacuation order was not given untill 18 hours before the strom made land fall. That means that they waited 54 hours before to give the order to evacuate the city. Speaking from personal experince My ex is from Gretna LA, her main source of reading materials were bad romance novels, and she could tell me all about how it was a big bad deal with the levee system and knew all about what would happen if they ever broke. She also happened to be 18 years old when she told me all of this. So this is a problem that has been largely ignored for a long long time.

As well those buses will handle long distance travel, how does your highschool's sports team get anywhere? they take those same buses. I personally have rode acrost the state of montana on one. Montana is roughly 4 times the size of Louisiana. Those school busses could have easily transported out a ton of people.

Taken directly from Blue Bird's web site. you will find there that they are the nations largerst manufacturer of school busses, as well thier busses have a seating capacity of between 54 and 90 persons, if you take a mean number of the two that would be 72 people per bus. To evacuate all of the people from the super dome at a number of 20,000 people it would take 278 busses to evacuate all of those people. The trip from New orlans to Houston Texas is 348 miles on one solid burn on I-10 if you figure at a speed of 60 mph (where as the limit there is 70) that would take you 5.8 hours to make that run. In the 72 hours from which they knew that the storm was going to hit NOLA that means that it if you figured 6 hour out and 6 back that would be 12 hours per round per bus. This means that had they acted swiftly and not dragged thier asses you could have evacuated 20,000 people with 93 buses. In that picture alone I think that there are more than 93 buses.

As well you figure that those buses get around 9MPG highway with thier 60 gallon fuel capacity you can run one of them 540 miles on that ammount of fuel. As well there is a 100 gallon tank that is optional that would make for a range of 900 miles.

even if you didnt have "official" drivers for these, how hard would it be to find 93 people in a city of a million that could handle driving 93 busses.

The logistics of making this manuver happen are not that difacult, I figured all of this up in 10 minutes. If the leadership of a major city can not handle the simple complexities they have bigger problems than that. Expecially when they had a premade evacuation plan that covered what to do in this event.

Well first off the phrase "most people"doesn't really matter in a situation where you only need 1 for every what...60 people? In a pretty crowded bus. And how is convincing someone to get onto a relatively empty road and drive under bad conditions significantly more responsible than leaving people to starve and die under very similar conditions? I don't see how the comparison is at all illogical.

I recognize that ideally we don't want panicky people driving busses, but I suspect that if you asked for volunteers to drive busses out of the city, most of the people who considered themselves able to drive would be in a reasonable mindset, and there would almost certainly be more volunteers than busses meaning that you would have some choices to make.

I guess my problem is this, if circumstance had stranded me in the city, and I knew that there was a bus that could be driven out of the city without anyone to drive it; I would like to think that I would get to where the bus was and figure it out. I guess you don't see someone in power suggesting that I do that as responsible, but I still disagree. Put the busses in lines, have competent people at the head of the lines and drive out. It's much more complicated and risky than it sounds, but then again so is leaving people there.

I don't mean this to shift blame away from the federal government, or even to direct blame at the mayor, I just don't believe that the justification that there were no drivers for the busses should hold water. I'm never going to run for an elected office, and it sounds like that's a good thing, since I am apparently too reckless for the job.

[Edited on Sep 10, 2005 10:10PM]

You people are looking at this with so much hindsight its not even funny.

The mayor followed the plan that was formulated beforehand because there would always be people who did not want to leave, did not get the message, whatever the plan was to send them to shelter as best as they can.

The simple fact is that out of all the people in leadership positions during the crisis the mayor contributed to the least amount of problems.

What has happened is that Karl Rove has come back from vacation and is doing damage control, trying his hardest to make people keep repeating that the mayor, governor, or even the people are somehow equal or more responsible than the bush administration and FEMA is for the entire ordeal.

And I called it almost a week ago.

Hindsight? "We have no people to drive the busses sir, what should we do?"

How much thought would it take after being asked that question to arrive at the conclusion that some of the people you want to save might be able to drive the busses?

And Karl Rove has zip to do with my opinion on the matter, so you can just back the fuck off on that one; most of the news I've heard on this has come straight off this site and has been aimed straight at GW himself. I don't think I've even heard this idea cited on the news, probably because most of them agree with you that it's a bad fucking idea.

And since when is contributing the least amount of problems to a bad situation something to be proud of, or a point on which to defend someone? I said it before and I'll say it again, I'm not trying to exonerate anyone else by arguing this position. It's entierly possible that political parties didn't determine who fucked up.

Edit: Karl Rove, working hard: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9280375/site/newsweek/

[Edited on Sep 10, 2005 by Vestril]

I never fail to be amazed at how often GW is given a pass by hiis supporters, no matter how often and obviously he lies, fucks up, erodes citizens' rights, obscenely enriches the military and big business, and drives his country deeper and deeper into debt. I wish someone could explain it to me.

I guess they profit from it personally and use the lies he tends to spew to help themselves sleep at night.