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legionnaire

legionnaire

Belgium
November 2003

SEP 02, 2005 09:22 AM

Emergency workers and Democratic representatives are beginning to point their fingers at President Bush's diversion of funds from emergency services to the Iraq war as a cause for some of problems that have resulted in New Orleans.

President Bush repeatedly requested less money for programs to guard against catastrophic storms in New Orleans than many federal and state officials requested, decisions that are triggering a partisan debate over administration priorities at a time when the budget is strained by the Iraq war.

[...]

In recent years, Bush repeatedly sought to slice the Army Corps of Engineers' funding requests to improve the levees holding back Lake Pontchartrain, which Katrina smashed through, flooding New Orleans. In 2005, Bush asked for $3.9 million, a small fraction of the request the corps made in internal administration deliberations. Under pressure from Congress, Bush ultimately agreed to spend $5.7 million. Since coming to office, Bush has essentially frozen spending on the Corps of Engineers, which is responsible for protecting the coastlines, waterways and other areas susceptible to natural disaster, at around $4.7 billion.


No one (who anyone would actually want to listen to, that is) is making the claim that the hurricane is somehow Bush's fault. Nor are people claiming that the levees would all have magically held if they had been properly funded. However, the extent of the damage might have been mitigated given proper preparation, and there's little doubt that if more National Guardsmen were in the US rather than Iraq that relief effforts would be proceeding more smoothly than they have been so far.

"It is hard to say, but it is true: There was a failure by [Bush] to meet the responsibility here," said Sen. Kent Conrad (D-N.D.). "Somebody needs to say it."

Is the National Guard "depleted because so many Guard are in Iraq that we don't have the opportunity to activate civil control?" asked Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.). "That question has to be asked." Almost one in three National Guardsmen in Louisiana is serving in Iraq or war-related efforts, according to the National Guard.

[...]

One project that has drawn attention in recent days is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, commonly called SELA, which began a decade ago to improve flood protection in a network of improved drainage canals and pump stations in Orleans and Jefferson parishes.

The project, which is supposed to cost $744 million overall, has been shortchanged recently, according to advocates. The corps said it needed $62.5 million next fiscal year; Bush proposed $10.5 million.

This provoked howls of protest from the Louisiana congressional delegation. "All of us said, 'Look, build it or you're going to have all of Jefferson Parish under water,' " recalled former senator John Breaux, a Democrat who is a Bush ally. "And they didn't, and now all of Jefferson Parish is under water."


This is a stark contrast with reactions to previous problems under Bush's watch. We all remember the ominous warnings from John Ashcroft following 9/11 about how if we aren't against the terrorists we're with them, and how any criticism of the administration was tantamount to treason. So in that regard it is refreshing to see some Democrats with spines who are willing to assign blame where it should be assigned.

That being said, it's hard not to have a sour taste in one's mouth over the whole affair. Given the incredible scope of the disaster in New Orleans it would be nice to just focus on getting things fixed and then blaming whoever was at fault later. However, if forced to choose between not blaming anyone ever and doing it perhaps a little prematurely, I'm forced to accept the latter as a better option. At least if there's some real culpability there's a chance that future disasters like this will be averted.

Crivelli

Crivelli

United Kingdom
January 2005

SEP 02, 2005 09:37 AM

Of course el Presidenti is going to catch flack for what isn't going on in terms of the response to the emergency but how could anyone plan for such total devestation? What irks me is that people whinge about the "nanny state" and then whinge when the Government doesn't hold their hand through every up and down in their life.

RustyShackelford

RustyShackelford

I'm lost
April 2005

SEP 02, 2005 09:50 AM

there's little doubt that if more National Guardsmen were in the US rather than Iraq that relief effforts would be proceeding more smoothly than they have been so far.



I doubt that.


One project that has drawn attention in recent days is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, commonly called SELA, which began a decade ago to improve flood protection in a network of improved drainage canals and pump stations in Orleans and Jefferson parishes.



I remember the debate about this during the 90's . Congress was reluctant to give more money to New Orleans/Lousiana because of the widespread corruption in the government there.


I blame Bill Clinton because he was president before Bush and he knew about hurricanes and failed to propose giving enough money to New Orleans. He didn't even propose a hurricane ban.

[Edited on Sep 02, 2005 10:01AM]

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Batavia, IL
January 2005

SEP 02, 2005 10:17 AM

RustyShackelford said:

there's little doubt that if more National Guardsmen were in the US rather than Iraq that relief effforts would be proceeding more smoothly than they have been so far.



I doubt that.


One project that has drawn attention in recent days is the Southeast Louisiana Urban Flood Control Project, commonly called SELA, which began a decade ago to improve flood protection in a network of improved drainage canals and pump stations in Orleans and Jefferson parishes.



I remember the debate about this during the 90's . Congress was reluctant to give more money to New Orleans/Lousiana because of the widespread corruption in the government there.


I blame Bill Clinton because he was president before Bush and he knew about hurricanes and failed to propose giving enough money to New Orleans. He didn't even propose a hurricane ban.

[Edited on Sep 02, 2005 10:01AM]



a hurricane...ban?

how the fuck do you ban a hurricane?

and again i must ask: link? info, something to prove your point? otherwise, you're just pulling out the usual bullshit displacement.

on edit: something bordered on a personal attack.

[Edited on Sep 02, 2005 by burning_bright]

legionnaire

legionnaire

Belgium
November 2003

SEP 02, 2005 10:37 AM

burning_bright said:
a hurricane...ban?

how the fuck do you ban a hurricane?


I hereby ban all hurricanes.

There, sound good?

Think it will work?

Crivelli

Crivelli

United Kingdom
January 2005

SEP 02, 2005 10:42 AM

burning_bright said:
a hurricane...ban?

how the fuck do you ban a hurricane?


biggrin

Humour bypass.

PixelPimp

PixelPimp

New York, NY
May 2005

SEP 02, 2005 10:43 AM

I find it ironic that on one hand the criticism is that more should have been done to reduce global warming. On the other hand, these same people think it’s such a great idea to destroy all semblance of a natural river system through increasingly artificial dykes and levies, which completely prevent natural environmental cycles of periodic flooding and sediment distribution.

smithers_jones

smithers_jones

I'm lost
November 2003

SEP 02, 2005 10:58 AM

Crivelli said:
Of course el Presidenti is going to catch flack for what isn't going on in terms of the response to the emergency but how could anyone plan for such total devestation? What irks me is that people whinge about the "nanny state" and then whinge when the Government doesn't hold their hand through every up and down in their life.


Cuba was able to evacuate 1.3 million people to saftey after Ivan (a category 5 hurricane when it hit) devasted them, employing amphibious tanks to rescue people from heavily flooded areas. I believe the death toll was something around zero.

This is not about the Nanny state vs the Daddy state. This about the complete break and incapacity of the US government to help tens of thousands of desperate people devasted by a natural disaster and compounded the breakdown of government and decades of social and economic neglect.

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

SEP 02, 2005 11:02 AM

Crivelli said:
Of course el Presidenti is going to catch flack for what isn't going on in terms of the response to the emergency but how could anyone plan for such total devestation? What irks me is that people whinge about the "nanny state" and then whinge when the Government doesn't hold their hand through every up and down in their life.


"every up and down in their life?"

Wow, that's some really idiotic thinking going on there. This is a bit more serious than that, don't you think? It is the governments most basic fucking job to protect and help people in times of crisis like this. It's not "whinging" to question the incredibly subpar job that the federal government has done during this catastrophe.

PixelPimp

PixelPimp

New York, NY
May 2005

SEP 02, 2005 11:08 AM

The Cuban evacuation you're talking about, while admirable, occurred BEFORE the hurricane struck. And the center of the storm never hit actually Cuba, affecting only sparsely populated western tip.

smithers_jones

smithers_jones

I'm lost
November 2003

SEP 02, 2005 11:23 AM

PixelPimp said:
The Cuban evacuation you're talking about, while admirable, occurred BEFORE the hurricane struck. And the center of the storm never hit actually Cuba, affecting only sparsely populated western tip.


Yeah, its not like anyone knew before hand that hurricane was heading for NO or anything.

Chitin

Chitin

New York, NY
December 2004

SEP 02, 2005 11:36 AM

PixelPimp said:
The Cuban evacuation you're talking about, while admirable, occurred BEFORE the hurricane struck. And the center of the storm never hit actually Cuba, affecting only sparsely populated western tip.


Oh, that's right, I FORGOT about the armored cars evacuating all the citizens of New Orleans who couldn't get out themselves last week.

Keith

Keith

Oklahoma City, OK
August 2002

SEP 02, 2005 11:38 AM

In two days Karl Rove will have every conservative in the country convinced beyond all doubt that Bush actually raised FEMA's budget and it's all just a liberal lie.

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Batavia, IL
January 2005

SEP 02, 2005 12:06 PM

Crivelli said:

burning_bright said:
a hurricane...ban?

how the fuck do you ban a hurricane?


biggrin

Humour bypass.



i wasn't actually trying to make a joke, i was serious.

it is pretty funny, tho. biggrin

Crivelli

Crivelli

United Kingdom
January 2005

SEP 02, 2005 12:11 PM

burning_bright said:
i wasn't actually trying to make a joke, i was serious.

it is pretty funny, tho. biggrin


biggrin

RustyShackelford made the joke and you missed it.

biggrin

monkeybuttt

monkeybuttt

Los Angeles, CA
June 2005

SEP 02, 2005 12:16 PM

Keith said:
In two days Karl Rove will have every conservative in the country convinced beyond all doubt that Bush actually raised FEMA's budget and it's all just a liberal lie.



the sad thing is, this is probably true.

"come on folks...give the president a break! he's been vacationing working hard."

aegies

aegies

Oakland, CA
June 2004

SEP 02, 2005 12:17 PM

Chitin said:

PixelPimp said:
The Cuban evacuation you're talking about, while admirable, occurred BEFORE the hurricane struck. And the center of the storm never hit actually Cuba, affecting only sparsely populated western tip.


Oh, that's right, I FORGOT about the armored cars evacuating all the citizens of New Orleans who couldn't get out themselves last week.



christ, for a second i thought you were serious. my eyeballs almost exploded all over my laptop screen.

PixelPimp

PixelPimp

New York, NY
May 2005

SEP 02, 2005 12:23 PM

Of course NO should have been evacuated before the hurricane, unfortunately many people did not have the means or did not chose to do it.

I’m just pointing out that Cuba did not in fact evacuate over million people from a flood area after a hurricane. Ivan cannot even be compared to this situation. Ivan indirectly struck a sparsely populated evacuated area, not a major city, below sea level, full of people.

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Batavia, IL
January 2005

SEP 02, 2005 12:30 PM

pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

[Edited on Sep 02, 2005 by burning_bright]

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Batavia, IL
January 2005

SEP 02, 2005 12:31 PM

Crivelli said:

burning_bright said:
i wasn't actually trying to make a joke, i was serious.

it is pretty funny, tho. biggrin


biggrin

RustyShackelford made the joke and you missed it.

biggrin



blush

i'm gullible sometimes.

Jeff_Fries

Jeff_Fries

Humptulips, WA
September 2003

SEP 02, 2005 12:33 PM

legionnaire said:
If forced to choose between not blaming anyone ever and doing it perhaps a little prematurely, I'm forced to accept the latter as a better option.


As long as we're being forced.

[Edited on Sep 02, 2005 by Jeff_Fries]

Crivelli

Crivelli

United Kingdom
January 2005

SEP 02, 2005 12:40 PM

burning_bright said:
blush

i'm gullible sometimes.


Join the club.

smile



there isn't actually a club

wink

[Edited on Sep 02, 2005 by Crivelli]

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

SEP 02, 2005 12:47 PM

Compare the words of the Mayor with these, from the president today:


We've got a lot of rebuilding to do. First, we're going to save lives and stabilize the situation. And then we're going to help these communities rebuild. The good news is -- and it's hard for some to see it now -- that out of this chaos is going to come a fantastic Gulf Coast, like it was before. Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott's house -- he's lost his entire house -- there's going to be a fantastic house. And I'm looking forward to sitting on the porch


Wow, Trent Lott's house. That really puts things in perspective...

TheFly

TheFly

Eagle Springs, NC
November 2003

SEP 02, 2005 12:50 PM

So people are dying while they are placing the blame of why this was allowed to happen. Goddam this country!! I don't give a damn what Bush did or didn't do/say/lied about. People are dying. You know, the people you fucking Representatives and Senators are supposed to look out for. Now, I don't give a fuck who didn't put the money where it was supposed to be, I am concerned about the people who look like third world refugees trapped and dying because the politicians are being fucking politicians!

On Larry King some interviewee began to give a spiel over Bush's blame about all this and Larry cut the fucker off saying this was not the time nor the place to be doing that. He's right goddammit. Washington needs to get it's collective head out of its collective ass and do something for a change.

PixelPimp

PixelPimp

New York, NY
May 2005

SEP 02, 2005 01:04 PM

You said it, fly!

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