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Michael_J_Totten

Michael_J_Totten

Iraq
February 2004

AUG 26, 2005 02:27 PM

I briefly felt sympathy for the Israeli settlers forced to evacuate Gaza and some of the northern West Bank settlements. But it didn’t last long. They should never, ever, have moved there in the first place. Anyone with sense should have known the Palestinians who lived there already would need to be made citizens of equal standing in a new larger Israel if Israelis would not eventually withdraw from the territories acquired in the war of ’67.

The Greater Israel movement in no way excuses the Greater Palestine movement to abolish the state of Israel “from the river to the sea.” Likewise, the Greater Palestine movement can not excuse Greater Israel. I am not playing a moral equivalency game here. Far better to build a house where it does not belong than blow up a cafe or a bus. But it is not necessary for the Israeli settler movement to be as morally bad as Hamas or Islamic Jihad for the movement to still be morally bad.

In a perfect world, both “greater” movement would be defeated simultaneously. But the world is far from perfect, as it always has been, and Palestinian society is more dysfunctional and corrupt than Israeli society. So the Greater Israel movement is being defeated before the Greater Palestine movement, if only because the intifada has been largely walled off from Israel proper. (Critics of Israel’s security fence should acknowledge that it is the very thing that makes Israeli withdrawal even possible.)

Leon Weiseltier in the New Republic says those who support Israel’s right to exist and its right to defend itself should not shed any tears.

Even faced with the idea of Greater Palestine, it is impossible not to rejoice in the defeat of the idea of Greater Israel. It was always a foul idea, morally and strategically. It promoted the immediate ecstasy of the few above the eventual safety of the many; it introduced the toxins of messianism and mysticism into the politics of a great modern democracy; it preferred chosenness to human rights; it subordinated laws to visions, and the Jewish state to the Jewish millennium; it worshiped soil in a primitive, almost un-Jewish way. The settlers of the West Bank and Gaza are not a Jewish vanguard, they are a Jewish sect; and in their insistence that the destiny of their state and their society should be held hostage to the fulfillment of their metaphysical and historical conceptions, they have always displayed a sectarian self-love.

In the settlement of Netzarim earlier this year, the settlers published a book whose title might be translated as Super-Natural Living: Tales of Life in Gush Katif, a collection of testimonies about the idyll of Jewish existence in Gaza. It is chilling to read, because of its unreality. "The Arabs say to each other, and to their Jewish neighbors, that until the Jews arrived to settle in this region, there was almost no rain. It was impossible to grow anything in the sands. But since we returned here, the rains have started to fall, and the land generously produces its bounty. ... This is without a doubt the fulfillment of the prophecy [in Ezekiel] about the redemption of Israel: 'But ye, O mountains of Israel, ye shall shoot forth your branches and yield your fruit to my people of Israel.'" There are no mountains in Gaza, but never mind. The settlers in Gaza created a magical world for themselves, an introverted universe of endless miracles. They were indifferent to, or contemptuous of, the decidedly unmagical and unmiraculous effects of their enterprise in the bitter world beyond.

For this reason, when I behold the photographs of the settlers in Gaza uprooted by Israeli soldiers, empathy almost completely deserts me. I seem to have a heart of stone, and I am not entirely embarrassed by it. More precisely, I regard the eviction of the settlers as the appropriate reward for their own hearts of stone. For many other Jews gave their lives and their limbs so that these Jews could grow their holy tomatoes and study their holy texts in this desert. In order to satisfy their individual and collective aspirations, the Israeli civilians who lived in Gaza required the sacrifice of Israeli soldiers in Gaza. In the years of Jewish settlement in Gaza, 230 Israelis were killed there. A substantial number of them were soldiers. Why is the life of a Jew in a uniform worth less than the life of a Jew in a greenhouse? That is stone-heartedness. And yet one hears mainly about the sacrifices of the settlers. Surely the same stirring revival of Zionist agronomy could have been accomplished in the equally arid zones a few miles to the north or the east, in a place called Israel…

These settlers were not pioneers, they were pawns--the eager and fervid pawns of various Israeli governments acting on a grandiose geopolitical scheme whose futility has finally become apparent to a majority of the citizens of Israel. For a few decades the settlers seemed to be winning, and now, at least in Gaza, they have lost. That is all. It is a tragedy for their movement, but it is not a tragedy for their nation. "As Israel prepares to withdraw from Gaza," wrote a prominent rabbi in New York, "it is not only natural but also proper that we experience a keen sense of mourning over our loss." But the disengagement from Gaza is not our loss. If our interest is in the delineation of defensible borders for Israel, it is our gain. The withdrawal is an act of historical wisdom. I will not squander my powers of sorrow over these dangerous and delirious places. In the years in which 230 Israelis were killed in Gaza, moreover, 2,600 Palestinians were killed in Gaza. Many of those deaths are plainly attributable to internecine Palestine violence, and more generally to the virulently rejectionist character of Palestinian nationalism; but Palestinian costs are human costs, too. Empathy is not a tribal faculty, it is a universal faculty, and such universalism is also a teaching of the Jewish tradition. The suffering in Gaza has been everywhere too great.

starguitar

starguitar

Canada
August 2004

AUG 26, 2005 02:33 PM

Let the calm, polite, reasoned debate commence...

cerebro

cerebro

Australia
August 2005

AUG 26, 2005 02:35 PM

this thread should be interesting with my breakfast in a few hours...

RustyShackelford

RustyShackelford

I'm lost
April 2005

AUG 26, 2005 02:50 PM

The Palestinians should move to Jordan. They lost "their" land fair and square.

[Edited on Aug 26, 2005 2:55PM]

bedukay

bedukay

Endicott, NY
March 2003

AUG 26, 2005 02:59 PM

RustyShackelford said:
The Palestinians should move to Jordan. They lost "their" land fair and square.



Didn't they already try that once?

hadees

hadees

Austin, TX
December 2003

AUG 26, 2005 03:12 PM

Michael_J_Totten how many times are you going to post the same discussion in diffrent forms.

from wikipedia


War of 1948
May 15 - June10
Enlarge
May 15 - June10

The 1948 Arab-Israeli War, known as the Israeli War of Independence or al-Nakba, 1948-1949, began after the British withdrawal and the declaration of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948. Arabs had formally rejected the United Nations Partition Plan of November 1947, which proposed establishment of an Arab and a Jewish state in Palestine. Jewish and Arab militias had begun a campaign to control territory both inside and beyond the partition-designated borders. Joint Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, Lebanese and Iraqi troops invaded Palestine, and fought to destroy the nascent Jewish state. About 2/3 of Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled by Israeli forces from the territories which came under Jewish control (see Palestinian Exodus); Arabs also expelled Jews from the territories which came under their control, for example the Old City of Jerusalem. About 700,000 Palestinians (estimates vary from 520,000 to 957,000 [1]) became refugees during the fighting.



[Edited on Aug 26, 2005 by hadees]

Archi

Archi

Austin, TX
January 2005

AUG 26, 2005 04:04 PM

Whatever. The Israeli's gave the land back. They took it at spoils of war when they kicked the holy living shit out of their neighbors who thought it would be a good idea to fuck with them.

Here's a tip to the friends of of the Palestinians who put them in this fscked position to begin with.... find something better to worry about than what is going on in Isreal. You've got the Great Satan there in the West... focus on them instead. Oh wait....

Ahriman

Ahriman

North York, ON
February 2003

AUG 26, 2005 04:17 PM

RustyShackelford said:
The Palestinians should move to Jordan. They lost "their" land fair and square.

[Edited on Aug 26, 2005 2:55PM]




Why is "their" in quotes? Is that meant to imply sarcasm? Because I don't understand where sarcasm applies. It belonged to them. The were involved in a conflict, and then occupied.

Regardless of your opinion on the whom has the moral high ground in this affair, the land at one point belonged to them. Not even the government of Isreal denies this. Yet you apparently seem to. Why?

jackalnoir

jackalnoir

Raleigh, NC
January 2005

AUG 26, 2005 04:23 PM

RustyShackelford said:
The Palestinians should move to Jordan. They lost "their" land fair and square.

[Edited on Aug 26, 2005 2:55PM]



Yea take that Palestine! Although I'm pretty sure it was their land long ago, at least before we created Israel. And I didn't think the whole "spoils of war" argument existed anymore, what with the obviously bad implications of any occupation, ever. Glad to see some elightened souls though.

Magilla

magilla

Congo
May 2003

AUG 26, 2005 04:23 PM

I once again wish to remind every one of the enduring legacy of 20th English Diplomacy, courtesy of Churchill and David Lloyd George:

1. Northern Ireland and Ireland
2. India and Pakistran
3. Israel and Palestain.

Thank you for the wonderful partitions, Cocksucker.s

Ahriman

Ahriman

North York, ON
February 2003

AUG 26, 2005 04:32 PM

Archi said:
Whatever. The Israeli's gave the land back.



They gave Gaza back. They haven't returned Golan Heights, or the West bank.

They took it at spoils of war when they kicked the holy living shit out of their neighbors who thought it would be a good idea to fuck with them.



Do you even understand the nature of the 1967 war? There was a build up of activity in along the borders of Isreal in the weeks to the war. It is still disputed over whether the Arab alliance attacked first or Isreal attacked pre-emptively. So no, nobody just "decided" to fuck with anybody.

Here's a tip to the friends of of the Palestinians who put them in this fscked position to begin with.... find something better to worry about than what is going on in Isreal. You've got the Great Satan there in the West... focus on them instead. Oh wait....



What exactly are you talking about here? Isreal was a state created by Britian and then supported by the US during the cold war, partially as a means of keeping a presence in the middle east.

By focusing on Isreal they are focusing on western policy and interference in the middle east.

I don't think you really have an concept about the history or the present factors involved in this conflict at all.

the comments you have made are asinine and partially incoherent. You'd probably want to even remotely educate yourself on the matter before speaking. Just some friendly advice.

hadees

hadees

Austin, TX
December 2003

AUG 26, 2005 04:37 PM

Magilla said:
I once again wish to remind every one of the enduring legacy of 20th English Diplomacy, courtesy of Churchill and David Lloyd George:

1. Northern Ireland and Ireland
2. India and Pakistran
3. Israel and Palestain.

Thank you for the wonderful partitions, Cocksucker.s



Exactly, thats who i blame for this mess the British and Arab nations who invaded.

[Edited on Aug 26, 2005 by hadees]

pascalpp

pascalpp

Brooklyn, NY
January 2004

AUG 26, 2005 05:37 PM

Michael, why do you continue to make veiled apologies for the Arab-Israeli conflict of 1967? biggrin

[Edited on Aug 26, 2005 5:37PM]

Archi

Archi

Austin, TX
January 2005

AUG 26, 2005 05:38 PM

Ahriman said:
You'd probably want to even remotely educate yourself on the matter before speaking. Just some friendly advice.



Ah right. Let me go read a book or 20 on the subject. Ok. Done.

Gaiseric

gaiseric

Eugene, OR
July 2003

AUG 26, 2005 05:46 PM

I agree that both dreams of a "Greater" should die.

There are no innocent hands in that situation.

I'm extremely hopeful that the current Intifada will come to an end in the next year or so.

In reality, I have pretty strong doubts of the ability of the Palestinian 'state' to be able to function in any way/shape/form.

solaris1622

solaris1622

Thousand Oaks, CA
March 2005

AUG 26, 2005 06:29 PM

Ahriman said:

Archi said:
Whatever. The Israeli's gave the land back.



They gave Gaza back. They haven't returned Golan Heights, or the West bank.



In exchange for what, from Palestine?

Dark_Templar

Dark_Templar

Auburn, CA
June 2004

AUG 26, 2005 06:47 PM

The jews have been treated terribly in history and lets not forget it was their land until the Romans began relocating them so they were in smaller groups and cause less problems. The pala's lost their land fair and square..... who u gonna side with, their both under-dogs. wink

LostIdentity

LostIdentity

Westville, NJ
October 2004

AUG 26, 2005 07:34 PM

I'm not disagreeing with anyone here but I think that the only reason the US is even involved is to sell weapons and not just in that area of the world either.

Its easier said than done, but I think the only proper solution is for Israel to admit what happened in the past, and for the palesinians to accept and move on.

LostIdentity

LostIdentity

Westville, NJ
October 2004

AUG 26, 2005 07:35 PM

Dark_Templar said:
The jews have been treated terribly in history and lets not forget it was their land until the Romans began relocating them so they were in smaller groups and cause less problems. The pala's lost their land fair and square..... who u gonna side with, their both under-dogs. wink



wow. Then maybe Greece should invade turkey.

Phoebus

Phoebus

Italy
OLD SKOOL

AUG 26, 2005 08:16 PM

That analogy doesn't work.

DeuceLAMF

DeuceLAMF

Austin, TX
April 2005

AUG 26, 2005 08:37 PM

In 1948, Israel fought a war against several Arab countries. As a result of the war, Egypt took control of previously ownerless Gaza, where both Jews and Arabs had been living. All the Jews left (forcibly). Then in 1967, Israel won a war against the same Arab countries and took Gaza. However, they did not annex it and make it part of Israel. Rather, it remained a disputed territory administered by israel. The population was all Arab, because it had been ruled by non-Jew friendly egyptians. So Israel allowed people to move to parts of Gaza where no Palestinians were living. Keep in mind, Palestinians have never had a country called Palestine, there is no palestinian currency or palestinian olympic team or UN representative. But, it's convenient to refer to the Arabs living in Gaza and the West Bank as Palestinians. So Israelis start moving in and building "settlements." That term makes it sound like they set up a few tents or something, but they built homes and businesses. A lot of Israel's cattle, wild flowers, and most of its dairy products come from the farms in the Israeli settlements in Gaza. There were about 8000 Israelis living there.
So last year Sharon gets the brilliant idea to ethnically cleanse Gaza and make Jews who'd been living there for 40 years leave. Why? As part of a peace treaty? If it were, I would support it fully. But Sharon expects nothing in return. He did not even negotiate for a quiet border or anything. He did not make an agreement that if there is violence from Gaza, he can go back in. Nothing. He just got out. It's a horrible plan. All troops are leaving. Troops there round up palestinians and gather intelligence, can't do that anymore. And the philadelphi route, which connects Egypt to Gaza and through which Egyptians smuggle weapons into Gaza, was heavily guarded by Israelis. No longer able to do that. Sharon, I think, has two ideas. One is that this will help him gain favor with Europe and the US. Everyone is applauding this move. Two weeks ago he became the first Israeli PM to be invited to France. Europe loves a nice meaningless appeasement. And second, he thinks if he gives up these settlements now, he'll be able to hold onto more West Bank settlements if peace is ever made. But that's bass-ackwards, because now he has fewer chips to bargain with. I mean, imagine you're going to negotiate a deal. You tell the guy before you sit down that you'll give him $100 up front, before any negotiations begin. Then you sit down to negotiate. You say, "I don't have to give you anything else, I gave you $100 already." Since it wasn't part of any deal, he'll just laugh at you. It's a bad move, not to mention how horrible it looks on tv to see Jews beating up other Jews.
That is Gaza 101

Phoebus

Phoebus

Italy
OLD SKOOL

AUG 26, 2005 08:46 PM

But Sharon expects nothing in return. He did not even negotiate for a quiet border or anything. He did not make an agreement that if there is violence from Gaza, he can go back in. Nothing. He just got out. It's a horrible plan.


I don't think you appreciate the long-term gains Israel will gain from this comparitively smallish stategic loss. If this doesn't work out, how hard do you think it would be for Israel to re-take the area?

Sharon, I think, has two ideas. One is that this will help him gain favor with Europe and the US. Everyone is applauding this move. Two weeks ago he became the first Israeli PM to be invited to France. Europe loves a nice meaningless appeasement. And second, he thinks if he gives up these settlements now, he'll be able to hold onto more West Bank settlements if peace is ever made. But that's bass-ackwards, because now he has fewer chips to bargain with. I mean, imagine you're going to negotiate a deal.


It's not nearly as simple as you make it sound. This isn't about chips for negotiation. This is about putting your best face on and setting yourself up for the position of moral high ground. If Abbas and the PLA fail to bring Hamas/etc. to heel, Sharon (or whoever succeeds him) will be able to say that it was all in their court.

grahf

grahf

New York, NY
September 2002

AUG 26, 2005 09:14 PM

solaris1622 said:

Ahriman said:

Archi said:
Whatever. The Israeli's gave the land back.



They gave Gaza back. They haven't returned Golan Heights, or the West bank.



In exchange for what, from Palestine?



In exchange for not having millions of Palestinians inside their borders anymore?

Don't anyone read too much into this analogy, but if you somehow end up getting awarded your neighbor's pit bull as a court settlement, sure it's yours by right. But if the damn thing won't stop mauling your kids, maybe you'd rather give it back even if your neighbor doesn't pay a cent for its return.

Dr_Zoidberg

Dr_Zoidberg

Raymore, MO
June 2004

AUG 26, 2005 10:19 PM

socalsk1nhead said:
How is this news, and not opinion?



That's pretty much what the news is. Facts, and then the writer's opinion of those facts.

Michael_J_Totten

Michael_J_Totten

Iraq
February 2004

AUG 27, 2005 12:39 AM

socalsk1nhead said:
How is this news, and not opinion?



Read the FAQ.

08. The news is totally biased! Why don't you publish the truth???

The news is submitted by random fuckbags like you and me. For the most part we're not career journalists, just interested onlookers. Editors do strive for a certain degree of quality in news postings, but if you feel your point of view or area of interest is being overlooked, the best thing to do is submit some news yourself!

We are not a reputable, objective news source. Walter Cronkite, Edward R. Murrow and other fat senior citizens who think of news as objective would/do hate the SG Newswire. We are part gossip rag, part talk radio, part daily show, part djs (spinning you the newspaper stories instead of songs). Other sites report; we mangle, spin, pontificate upon, slant and direct you to the stuff on the web we think worthy of your notice, whether for humor's sake, or because it's important.

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