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Keith

Keith

Oklahoma City, OK
August 2002

FEB 13, 2005 10:43 AM

Of my two favorite historical interests for the purposes of being a smartass, my favorite is the religious beliefs of our Founding Fathers. (The other is Biblical absurdities, but that's for another time.) In America, it's like the story of Columbus or the first Thanksgiving -- the myth has overtaken the reality to such an extent that most believe the truth, if they hear it, to be the lie.

CBS News.com reprinted this opinion piece from The Nation, and I liked it.

Our Constitution makes no mention whatever of God. The omission was too obvious to have been anything but deliberate, in spite of Alexander Hamilton's flippant responses when asked about it: According to one account, he said that the new nation was not in need of "foreign aid"; according to another, he simply said "we forgot." But as Hamilton's biographer Ron Chernow points out, Hamilton never forgot anything important.

In the eighty-five essays that make up The Federalist, God is mentioned only twice (both times by Madison, who uses the word, as Gore Vidal has remarked, in the "only Heaven knows" sense). In the Declaration of Independence, He gets two brief nods: a reference to "the Laws of Nature and Nature's God," and the famous line about men being "endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights." More blatant official references to a deity date from long after the founding period: "In God We Trust" did not appear on our coinage until the Civil War, and "under God" was introduced into the Pledge of Allegiance during the McCarthy hysteria in 1954 [see Elisabeth Sifton, "The Battle Over the Pledge," April 5, 2004].


In 1797 our government concluded a "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, or Barbary," now known simply as the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 of the treaty contains these words:

"As the Government of the United States... is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion -- as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity of Musselmen -- and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

This document was endorsed by Secretary of State Timothy Pickering and President John Adams. It was then sent to the Senate for ratification; the vote was unanimous. It is worth pointing out that although this was the 339th time a recorded vote had been required by the Senate, it was only the third unanimous vote in the Senate's history. There is no record of debate or dissent. The text of the treaty was printed in full in the Philadelphia Gazette and in two New York papers, but there were no screams of outrage, as one might expect today.


If we define a Christian as a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then it is safe to say that some of the key Founding Fathers were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists -- that is, they believed in one Supreme Being but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of the Christian Church; the word of the Creator, they believed, could best be read in Nature. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian, but he, too, in his private correspondence seems more deist than Christian.



More there. Interesting reading.

[Edited on Feb 13, 2005 by Keith]

Keith

Keith

Oklahoma City, OK
August 2002

FEB 13, 2005 10:52 AM


Franklin was the oldest of the Founding Fathers. He was also the most worldly and sophisticated, and was well aware of the Machiavellian principle that if one aspires to influence the masses, one must at least profess religious sentiments. By his own definition he was a deist, although one French acquaintance claimed that "our free-thinkers have adroitly sounded him on his religion, and they maintain that they have discovered he is one of their own, that is that he has none at all." If he did have a religion, it was strictly utilitarian: As his biographer Gordon Wood has said, "He praised religion for whatever moral effects it had, but for little else." Divine revelation, Franklin freely admitted, had "no weight with me," and the covenant of grace seemed "unintelligible" and "not beneficial." As for the pious hypocrites who have ever controlled nations, "A man compounded of law and gospel is able to cheat a whole country with his religion and then destroy them under color of law" -- a comment we should carefully consider at this turning point in the history of our Republic.

ill_will

ill_will

Detroit, MI
September 2004

FEB 13, 2005 01:11 PM

Jesus and Pat Robertson hate you for this.

But seriously, I agree with you. I always doubted that Ben Franklin was a devout religious man if he truly was a man of science. Even if some of were devout Christians, they also were devout slave owners, so their ideals mean nothing in this day and age.
By the way, I think The Founding Fathers are overrated.

Brinstar

Brinstar

Chicago, IL
September 2002

FEB 13, 2005 01:23 PM

I don't think the Founding Fathers are "overrated", but their ideals are definately out of place in modern society in a lot of ways.

They were pretty smart though and foresaw this, in that they left a lot of flexibility in the law-making process to adapt to the times.

Of course, that openness leads to a lot of "interpretation" of what the Founding Fathers meant, and everyone interprets things their own way...

Jeff_Fries

Jeff_Fries

Humptulips, WA
September 2003

FEB 13, 2005 01:25 PM

Off the subject, but sometimes I wonder if Keith's family was murdered by evangelicals, or eaten by a evangelical animal.

Keith

Keith

Oklahoma City, OK
August 2002

FEB 13, 2005 01:28 PM

Jeff_Fries said:
Off the subject, but sometimes I wonder if Keith's family was murdered by evangelicals, or eaten by a evangelical animal.



Haha. Jesus killed my sister!

Come relive your life in Oklahoma among the Southern Baptists. Grow up in a Church of Christ family that makes you go to church three times a week until you're 18, or you're grounded. You'll see where I get it from.

KreepyKen

KreepyKen

Portland, OR
July 2003

FEB 13, 2005 01:36 PM

I feel for you, man.

Chitin

Chitin

New York, NY
December 2004

FEB 13, 2005 01:41 PM

Jesus Christ!

...no pun intended.

Thistle

Thistle

SUICIDEGIRL

California, USA

FEB 13, 2005 01:41 PM

I heart Keith. If more people would think and learn about the truth, then fewer would be so easily duped. On all sides of everything.

Keith

Keith

Oklahoma City, OK
August 2002

FEB 13, 2005 01:42 PM

Thistle said:
I heart Keith. If more people would think and learn about the truth, then fewer would be so easily duped. On all sides of everything.



eeek blush

JohnClement

JohnClement

Silver Spring, MD
January 2004

FEB 13, 2005 01:52 PM

I'm with you 100% Keith. Growing up in a rural area, I have a nearly identical experience. However, things aren't likely to change any time soon.

dholokov

dholokov

Toronto, ON
April 2003

FEB 13, 2005 02:40 PM

It has more to do with political culture than the text of any constitutional documents. The constitution of Canada, for instance, notes the Supremacy of God but as a whole is less under the sway of religious influence in politics than the U.S..

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

FEB 13, 2005 02:49 PM

dholokhov said:
It has more to do with political culture than the text of any constitutional documents. The constitution of Canada, for instance, notes the Supremacy of God but as a whole is less under the sway of religious influence in politics than the U.S..



Silly Canadians. Don't you know that you'll all go to hell if you don't listen to God's word?

TheFuckOffKid

TheFuckOffKid

NEWSWIRE

Australia

FEB 13, 2005 03:06 PM

Subrosa said:

dholokhov said:
It has more to do with political culture than the text of any constitutional documents. The constitution of Canada, for instance, notes the Supremacy of God but as a whole is less under the sway of religious influence in politics than the U.S..



Silly Canadians. Don't you know that you'll all go to hell if you don't listen to God's word?


They do listen to God's word. The Canadian God is a liberal hippie pacifist.

Wren

Wren

SUICIDEGIRL

Minnesota, USA

FEB 13, 2005 03:10 PM

I shouldn't read the Current Events topics. They angry up the blood. But thank you for sharing, Keith. Very interesting.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

FEB 13, 2005 03:13 PM

TheFuckOffKid said:

Subrosa said:

dholokhov said:
It has more to do with political culture than the text of any constitutional documents. The constitution of Canada, for instance, notes the Supremacy of God but as a whole is less under the sway of religious influence in politics than the U.S..



Silly Canadians. Don't you know that you'll all go to hell if you don't listen to God's word?


They do listen to God's word. The Canadian God is a liberal hippie pacifist.



He's probably teh ghey too. Stupid Canadian pinko pot-smokin' homo God...

ill_will

ill_will

Detroit, MI
September 2004

FEB 13, 2005 03:27 PM

Radd

radd

Madison, WI
OLD SKOOL

FEB 13, 2005 05:23 PM

A short history of the Pledge of Allegiance. It's well worth a read.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

A quote by Thomas Jefferson, only part of this appears on the Jefferson memorial, out of context:


"[The clergy] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough too in their opinion."



The revisionist idea that other famous Presidents were devoted Christians is also unfounded. Here's a quote from Abraham Lincoln:


The Bible is not my book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma.




[Edited on Feb 13, 2005 by Radd]

Miel

Miel

Goleta, CA
October 2004

FEB 13, 2005 05:30 PM

I heard they were almost all Freemasons too.

Jeff_Fries

Jeff_Fries

Humptulips, WA
September 2003

FEB 13, 2005 07:41 PM

TheFuckOffKid said:

Subrosa said:

dholokhov said:
It has more to do with political culture than the text of any constitutional documents. The constitution of Canada, for instance, notes the Supremacy of God but as a whole is less under the sway of religious influence in politics than the U.S..



Silly Canadians. Don't you know that you'll all go to hell if you don't listen to God's word?


They do listen to God's word. The Canadian God is a liberal hippie pacifist.


Chitin

Chitin

New York, NY
December 2004

FEB 13, 2005 09:50 PM

Well played, Jeff! tongue

Doghouse_Reilly

doghouse_reilly

I'm lost
February 2004

FEB 14, 2005 02:20 AM

I love this stuff too. biggrin

Instead of "In God We Trust," the original design for the penny (designed by Ben Franklin) had a motto that said "Mind Your Business."

This is another good article about the history of God in the goverment.

rosehips

rosehips

Minneapolis, MN
February 2005

FEB 14, 2005 02:26 AM

Keith said:

Jeff_Fries said:
Off the subject, but sometimes I wonder if Keith's family was murdered by evangelicals, or eaten by a evangelical animal.



Haha. Jesus killed my sister!

Come relive your life in Oklahoma among the Southern Baptists. Grow up in a Church of Christ family that makes you go to church three times a week until you're 18, or you're grounded. You'll see where I get it from.



Southwestern Illinois, but otherwise the experience is the same. I know exactly where you get it from.

DrStinkypants

DrStinkypants

Saint Paul, MN
October 2002

FEB 14, 2005 02:44 AM

im not really too sure if the christian members of government actually relate their faith to the founding fathers.
we've almost completely reversed the right to bear arms and the whole slavery thing, why not the seperation of church and state?

rosehips

rosehips

Minneapolis, MN
February 2005

FEB 14, 2005 02:54 AM

Well that depends on what you think the founding fathers meant by a "well regulated militia". If you read the federalist papers or most of the other writings of the founding fathers it is pretty clear that we have not reversed what they had in mind. At lease on the right to bear arms issue. I think i will
have to concede the slavery issue. wink

[Edited on Feb 14, 2005 by rosehips]

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