Israel, Palestinians to announce cease-fire

From CNN:

One can hope, can't they?

I think i'd announce just about anything to get Ms Rice out of my space!

But seriously, I hope this works, and I hope that the new Palestinian leadership is able to convince some of the more extreme terrorist groups to agree to it too.

And in the future, land redistribution for the Palestinian people? Guess we'll have to wait and see . . .

To see what Israel (and Abbas) are up against, see the Hamas Covenent on their website:

http://www.hamasonline.com/indexx.php?page=Hamas/hamas_convenant

sample quote:

"The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: 0 Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree."

fucking nutcase culties

I wish the Palestinians luck!

It's an interesting point. I am sure that this will be the West Bank & Gaza now that Egypt and Jordan have agreed to return the land they took from Israel in 1948 to the Palestinians!

A lot of people ask "Where is Palestine?" - they say it as a political gesture, rather than a sincere question. The implication being that Israel gobbled up all of the historic, established Kingdom of Palestine, home for millenia to the ancient tribe of Palestinians.

Not the case!

There have only been two independent countries in that region Canaan & Israel (although at one point Israel split into two Jewish countries, Israel & Judah).

The Jews started as a tribe of the Canaanites, and returned from Egypt to defeat them into obscurity.

The Jews have been in the area for about 3,500 years. The Arabs first arrived around the 7th Century BC.

It would be fair to say that most of todays regional Jews & Arabs are decendents of 20th Century immigrants.

Since the inception of modern State of Israel, the surrounding countries have loudly complained about the theft of "Palestine". This despite the fact that a) Palestine never existed as an independent state b) In 1948 Egypt & Jordan went into Israel and stole the West Bank & Gaza for themselves and c) the region traditionally defined as Palestine included parts of Syria, Lebanon & Jordan.

Here is a map of the typical borders of the "Palestine" region transposed onto the modern landscape. Wouldn't it be a nice gesture if Syria, Jordan & Lebanon gave some of their currently held territory to the Palestinians? I mean, it was "Palestine" once wasn't it?

....and they care so much about Palestinians having their traditional land....don't they?

Nutcases? Are you somehow implying that the Gharqad would rat out the Jews hiding behind it? 'Cos I think THAT sounds a little crazy

Well, it's reassuring to know that despite the hope of a cease fire, message board posters around the world will keep alive the long tradition of assigning blame to the other side. God bless the internet.

Are you telling me the refugees came out of nowhere, last time I checked they were living in what is now Israel . All they want is to go back to where they were kicked out or forced out before, they can call it Israel or Palestine, it wouldn't matter to them ... at least it is better than living in camps. They were non-Jewish people and Jews living side by side before the creation of Israel, called them Palestinians or Arabs but I think they have the same right to the land as anyone else ...

We can only pray that George, Condi, et al don't get one freakin smidgen of credit for this. The groundwork has been laid, with blood, by many others. I'd seriously resent anything that could allow that coke snortin' playboy and his gap-toothed nanny any chance to claim the 'peacemaker' role.

Do you know how small Israel actually is?

The people who chose to flee to neighbouring countries were only fleeing a few miles regardless.

For those fleeing to Jordan it was like people from Manhattan going to live in Brooklyn. For everyone else it was like "moving upstate".

Were they fleeing to an alien country & culture? Well, the borders and national identities of modern Palestine, Lebanon, Syria & Jordan had only been established about 30 years - this after THOUSANDS OF YEARS of being the same country.

Look at todays Jordan. In terms of land, Jordan is as much "Palestine" as Israel. Even the capital city Amman was counted in the region of Palestine and when the British took over from the Ottomans, the whole fucking country of Jordan was in "Palestine". Three quarters of the Jordanian people are "Palestinian". And all of the Palestinians (including the "refugees") are Jordanian citizens.

Yet the country isn't called Palestine and it's run by a minority tribe originally from Saudi.

Their choice of "Jordan" as a national name instead of "Palestine", their choice of "refugee" status rather than regular citizen and their lack of democracy is their business - nothing to do with Israel.

Sure - some people fled Israel and settled a few miles down the road. And sure, they haven't been allowed back. A similar number of Jews were forcably kicked out of neighbouring Arab countries. I don't see them whining about being refugees, demanding a "right to return" or claiming to be some separate, distinct, persecuted nationality to other Jews in Israel.

They are just Jews who had to resettle in Israel and got on with the job. Just as those Arabs that fled one part of "Palestine" for another part of "Palestine", should have been allowed to get on with the job of being Jordanians, Syrians or Lebanese.

Let's give these peace moves thirty or so years to bed down and then any original residents of pre-war Palestine should be allowed to return to Israel. They'd be about 85 years old, but they'd get the best healthcare in the region.

Arabs for Israel

I'm actually grateful to Hamas for being so nakedly honest. In the past people have hidden from the truth by blaming Israel for everything.

Now Israel & the PA are cooperating while Hamas make it bloody OBVIOUS to the Palestinians (and the world) that they are the obstacle to peace.

There will be no withdrawal from the West Bank until Israel feels safe. The problem terrorism has to be tackled eventually...and if it takes the Palestinians to get rid of Hamas, then so be it. The sooner the better for them, Israel and peace.

I am encouraged by the recent peace moves. It may follow a sequence I
mentioned as a possibility a while back.

I'm also grateful to Yasser Arafat for dying and making all this possible.

OK, let's give Manhattan back to the Indians. After all, they were there first, and you DID kind of fuck them by trading it for a bunch of beans. And ALL the people in Manhattan can go live in Brooklyn. Let me know how that whole "moving upstate" thing works out.

30 years is a long time. Enough to change the differences in culture between one group of arabs and another. Just because people inhabit the same country doesn't mean they're all the same culturally. And two near-identical cultures, separated, diverge and change according to their environments.

Yeah, and Brooklyn is as much "America" as Manhattan is. So all those people living in Manhattan, they're basically going to the same place.

So how would you feel if your country wasn't ruled by your people? I know I wouldn't want to live there.

Not if their homes are IN what is Israel.

Shouldn't they be? Shouldn't people be allowed to live where they choose?

Yes, "got on with the job" of their cultural background. That's a career choice alright.

Yes, let's make fun of their problems while living in our comfortable first world society. Aren't we so nihilistic and humorous?

I like Jews for Peace in Palestine and Israel .

There is nothing here to get one's hopes up. Abbas and Sharon have merely agreed to meet w/ Bush for more talks. Nothing has changed. Extremists on both sides can easily defeat this so-called cease-fire, and Jewish settlers on Palestinian lands will strongly resist Sharon's announced attempts to move them, and Sharon still intends to keep many of the largest settlements on Palestinian soil. Not the mention that Jerusalem is still a MAJOR stumbling block.


hatch --> count.

It's just a hudna. When the Palestinians are in the position to go on the offensive again, they will.

You mean Syria or Jordan, who set up those camps by the way, not "Israel or Palestine".

You mean Syria or Jordan, who set up those camps by the way, not "Israel or Palestine".

Kind of missing.....well avoiding the point.....well actually screaming and running away from the point

However if you want to talk about who was in Israel first, I'd be happy to

oh come on , really!

since the Romans christened the place Palaestina.....
through various invasions and owners...
up through the centuries of the Ottoman Empire....
HAVING NEVER been an independent state......
and never visibly WANTING to be an independent state.....
and never displaying nationalist aspirations as a people...
who most of that time being quite happy to be called Syrians...
you expect me to believe that....
suddenly......
DRAMATICALLY.....
DESPITE 2000 YEARS of not giving a flying fuck about national identity....
the Palestinians became a distinct nationality
and all in about the same amount of time that Justin Timberlake has been alive???
That one set of Arabs on one side of a small fence develops a completely DISTINCT NATIONAL IDENTITY from their friends and relatives a few miles away.

Really, sickmachine - please stay far away from the "Bridges for Sale" category on Ebay.....

Here's some nice quotes to help break you out of your daydream:

So if Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan, why can't they just FUCKING RENAME the bastard country "Palestine" and have done with it???

Again - who's fault is that?.

Democracy isn't exactly endemic in the Middle East.

Perhaps the more people see the Israelis & Iraqis being able to choose their leaders, the more Jordanians who call themselves "Palestinian" will want the right to change the name of Jordan back to "Palestine."

Again - not Israel's fault. If the Arabs hadn't started killing the Jews, there wouldn't have been a war and they wouldn't have felt the need to flee.

And besides - I don't anyone commiserating with the 800,000 Jewish people who lost their houses, cars and businesses when all the Arab countries kicked them out.

Shouldn't a bunch of violent crazed rednecks be able to live right there on that Amish farm or on that Native American reservation, if they want to?

Besides - AGAIN:

the fucking principle of the matter.

Jordan was founded for the Arabs of the Palestine region.

The Arabs got over three quarters of the British Mandate Palestine

The Israelis got less than one quarter - even though the Jewish people had a much stronger connection to that land than the Arabs, a

There are 26 Arab countries and 46 Muslim countries in the world

There is just one Jewish State - the size of New Jersey

And even this they are happy to share with the Arabs that didn't flee

Even though Jordan kicked out its Jews

And even though Jordan stole yet more of Israel (which they now want to give to the Pals)

So - in short and in the words of the bard: (ahem)

"Why the fucking, bloody, cunting, FUCK should Jordanian citizens have any bastard rights to lands they lost in Israel"

Move the fuck on.




[Edited on Feb 09, 2005 by Albion]

So your argument is that if Jews were forced of some Arabs countries, then it is all right to kick Arabs out Israel . All I'm saying is that there is enough land in Israel and Palestine to resettle the refugees ... They don't deserve to live the way they do . It is called a sense of identity, just like the Jewish people wanted a country of their own after WWII , so do the Palestinians . Isn't that a human right for a population to have the right for self-determination and to govern themselves . and what about the settlements ? how can you explain that ? These are land that the UN explicitly set aside when it created Israel and Palestine.. Sure the Arabs armies started the war to destroy Israel, but when is it OK to take over a territory after the war has been won . In the modern world, US won WWII but we didn't annexed Japan or Germany .. We helped them rebuild and now they are our friends...
We can go back and forth arguing about these issues but if you answer is to tell the refugees to just get over it, then those refugees camps will become the next hotbed for terrorists ... it is better to help them resettle either in Israel , Palestine or any country that is willing to take them in . All you are saying here is that Palestinians are Arabs , therefore, they are Egyptians, Jordanians, SYrians , Lebanese, etc and they should move to those countries ...
It is like saying all Asians come from a single country or Hispanincs are all the same people.

It is clear that you have already made up your mind about the issues and are not open to see it from another point of view, let's hope the leaders of Israel and the PA are more open-minded about it now and don't let this chance slip by again or the cycle of hatred would never end . Both sides has to recognize the wrongs that have been done to both people and take it from there.

[Edited on Feb 09, 2005 by xgenehawk]

[Edited on Feb 09, 2005 by xgenehawk]

[Edited on Feb 09, 2005 by xgenehawk]

[Edited on Feb 09, 2005 by xgenehawk]

I meant they were kicked/forced out of what is now Israel and Palestine . I know where the camps are , Jordan, Syria , Lebanon .


[Edited on Feb 09, 2005 by xgenehawk]

Well they weren't really kicked out, not in the same way the jews got kicked out of many arab countries anyway. Somehow I don't understand people that will leave to go live in the country that is invading yours then ask to be let back in years later. Aside from that, the arabs who stayed in israel have pretty much proven there was no real reason for the refugees to leave.

Israel is definately not the bad guy, even the land they took after the wars was given back to the countries who negotiated peace with them, erm country I mean, I guess the other arab countries would rather keep the palestine issue alive to keep their subjects from getting uppity.

When is the last time you saw a country build settlements in land that doesn't belong to you ? Now, Sharon finally realized that the settlements were a bad decision and has decided to remove them, at least in Gaza.
There are some historical facts stating that some Arabs were forced to move from their homes, others flee out of fear of the war. Just like in any war zone, civilians are caught in the middle, if they stay they might die , if they leave they take the chance of losing their home, what do you do if you were them ? I certainly thought refugees are allowed to go back home once a war is over. What is wrong with helping them relocate back to their former homes, or a future Palestine country or any other country , just to defuse the issue once and for all.
The issue of Palestinians refugees is central to the Mideast process, and it needs to be part of the solution. I just can't see how people can discuss the Mideast without having an open mind, taking one side or the other and never seeing that both sides has been wrong about dealings with each other and the only way to find a solution is for both of them to stop justifying who has more rights to the land as I said before, they were living together side by side even before Israel or Palestine was created. Maybe we should have the British mandate back.


[Edited on Feb 09, 2005 by xgenehawk]

They may have had legitimate reason to fear because of the war, a few may have actually been forced out, but that doesn't give them the right to demand to come back.

The arabs and the jews may have been living together relatively peacefully before the creation of israel, but that is the past. Israel was created, and has a right to exist and defende itself. Arab countries attacked Israel and lost, so IMO, Israel can do whatever they want to with the land. I don't expect them to give back what they won in a war for nothing. They gave back what they won from Egypt, but none of the other arab countries or the palestinians have been willing to deal fairly in a peace process.

I think we can all agree that a comprehensive peace plan will include:
1. Israel and a Palestinian state with define borders.
2. The status of Jerusalem has to be clearly defined for both sides.
3. The status of the refugees has to be resolved one way or another, if not for other reason than to prevent a hotbed of extremists groups in these camps.

I hope that this time both sides will be able to work thru whatever differences they have, as seen in this thread as there are many point views, and choose to work toward a lasting peace.

My only contribution is to wish them the best of luck and let's hope for the best.
Once, we have a lasting peace then other Arab countries can not use the Palestinian conflict as an excuse for their own shortcomings and maybe the landscape of the Middle East will be changing for the better . The way I see it, a stable Middle East would hopefully lead to less acts of global terrorrism .

nobody kicked the Arabs out of Israel

some of them fled because of a war their people started

The Jews however, were kicked out - and not because of any military action...because their Arab hosts hated Jews and wanted to kill them

There ISN'T enough room for them in Israel - and if the Arab world care so much about these people, then THEY should resettle them.

I agree - but about half of the historic region of Palestine is in today's Jordan. Most Jordanians are Palestinian. The Jordanian government offers citizenship to all Palestinians and as Jordan's Prince Hassan once said:

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate"

So here's my solution: give the Jordanian land on the East Bank of the Jordan river to the Palestinians.

Sure - and with 75% of 1920 Palestine being Jordan and with 75 % of all Jordanians being Palestinians ruled by a Hashemite minority, perhaps that's a matter the world should take up with Jordan?

The ones Sharon is already in the process of clearing in Gaza or the ones in the West Bank?

To me it makes no sense for the Palestinians to have land around the Jordan and an extra little bit by the Med. But if I suggested moving the Palestinians out of Gaza so that they could have a consolidated, sensibly shaped country, you accuse me of wanting ethnic cleansing....Yet you have no qualms about forcably moving Jews out of their settlements!

There have been Jews on the West Bank since 1300 BC. Many Jews were forcably removed from the West Bank by Jordan (see here for details), but while many people moan about the Palestinians "right to return", the same people moan about Jews on the West Bank.

I am sure that the settlements will be cleared as part of an eventual negotiated peace. I am sure they won't want to stay if the land does get given to the Palestinians. I sure as shit wouldn't want to stay.

Israel has been occupying the West Bank & Gaza since the wars becuase of the obvious terrorism threat. Israel will give back the land when the threat is over - permanently.

What I am talking about is the moral share of the land. I think Jordan should be giving the East Bank to the Palestinians, not the West Bank land it stole from Israel (and ethnically cleansed of Jews) in 1949.

Not in Israel. Israel is tiny. Israel is traditionally Jewish. Israel is the only country in the world with a Jewish majority. The world has a habit of murdering Jews. We need Israel.

Israel is a fraction of the size of Jordan, but Israel has a bigger population than Jordan. A large part of Jordan used to be Palestine, so the Palestinians should live in Jordan. They have the space, they have the history.

Either that or they should give some of their formerly Palestinian land to the Palestinians.





[Edited on Feb 10, 2005 by Albion]

One final thought. Democracy in Jordan would make it a Palestinian state.
Don't campaign against Israel.
Campaign for democracy in Jordan.