Arofish: Graffiti from Iraq through Palestine

Are you saying that where this situation and apartheid differs is the motivation? or that its because its only the palestinians not arabs in isreal?

"If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children [jewish] in Germany by bringing them over to England, and only half of them to Israel, then I would opt for the second alternative. For we must weigh not only the life of these children but also the historoursely of the people of Israel."

David Ben-Gurion first prime minister of Israel in resonse to why he opposed a plan to allow German Jewish children to emigrate to Britain durring WWII.

"Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries-all of them. Not one village, one tribe should be left."

Joseph Weitz first head of Jewish Agency's Colonization Department, Israel 1947

"We must use terror, assissination, intimidation, land confiscation and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of it's Arab population."

Koenig Plan 1947

Heresy200:

The Israel Palistinian conflict is ripe with examples of how neither side can even come close to claiming the higher ground at the moment.

All of the above quotes are from Zionist party durring the foundation of Israel. All of them illustrate that there really isn't a moral superior in the the conflict. Therefore it is not safe to go spouting of "history" in order to illustrate how one nation's current actions are justifiable. Even if you have the whole story, it is still hard to point fingers.

Did the palistinians commit horrid attrocities against innocent people? Yep, some of them did, and it is tragic.

It is a conflict in which you can't simply point fingers.

Yeah - it's JUST like apartheit, with the exception that Israeli Arabs can vote, can be elected into public office, there's no segregation, equal rights for all are embedded into the constitution, Arabs and Jews often work together, live together - can marry each other, can travel on the same buses, Arabs can serve in the military, play in Israeli national sports teams, even represent israel at Miss World.

Yeah - just like fucking apartheit (except without any of the actual features of apartheit).

Now that's Israel.

The West Bank & Gaza aren't Israel. Gaza is an occupied part of Egypt and the West bank is an occupied part of Jordan. Because the communities there list "killing innocent Israeli men, women and children" among their hobbies, they are treated rather differently.

Israel's funny that way - they just aren't keen on having their civilians murdered - maybe its a cultural thing...I dunno...the upshot is, because the Palestinains have done fuck all stop these murderous cult groups, Israel has to erect a big fence to stop them.

Call it apartheit. I call it good common sense. And as with everything else with the Palestinians, the answer is easy: if you want to be treated better, stop murdering us.

You're an Israeli?

fenris23,

I think Apartheid holds certain connotations that don't apply here. Allow me to (try to) explain:

I believe that the actions and measures Israel has taken, so far as the barrier and military operations are concerned, have been taken with security and defense in mind. Can a nation's actions, even when it has defense and the preservation of innocent civilian lives in mind, be negative and hurtful? I believe that as well. I don't, however, think that the Israeli government, nor even a majority of their population, has any desire to marginalize Palestinians in a social or economic way. I think that the Intifidah was a very unfortunate event in that it opened a Pandora's Box that neither Arafat nor any other Palestinian could ever truly close. Part of the outcome was a progressively violent reaction that in our times has come to include a literal walling off of the different populations.

Is this the same as a policy of segregating people and writing law specifically designed to limit and oppress people on the basis of skin? I don't think so, but that's me.

double post

[Edited on Nov 20, 2004 by Albion]

I've never seen this "Koenig Plan" mentioned anywhere other than radical socialist websites and the kind of Arab sites that still cite The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Believe what you like, the Jews have a historical claim to the land, have had a continuous (though at times depleted) presence in the land, resettled after the war into a land run by the British, that was only known as Palestine for 36 years and had been colonised by everyone except the Mongols since Jews were first expelled.

They also would have been living in harmony with the local Arab population if the Arab's leader - the Hitler-aligned Grand Mufti of Jerusalem hadn't started murdering them. Again - the Arab's decision, just as murdering the Jews was their decision when they lost land in the 6 day war, the Yom Kippur War. Just as it's their decision to keep on trying to murder non-combatants in Israel today.

Perhaps if they tried peace and acceptance, they get somewhere. It worled for Saddat...until Islamists killed him, that is.....

I'm a Jew

I think a great deal of the problems that occur when discussing the matters of palestine and Israel is that people tend to group things too universally. US and THEM. ARABS and JEWS. The groups of people actually involved are much smaller. Palestininians and Israelis. or smaller still israeli settler extremists, israeli military, palestinian extremists and to a lesser degree the palestinian authority. Those are the groups actually taking action. To blame the Israelis or worse the jews for the actions of to very small subsets of their groups is a mistake. The same can be said for the Palestinians and the Arabs.

Thank you phobus your clarification helps some.

Well, like I said this isn't a cut and dry case. The best thing I ever heard about the pre-Israel Palistine was an article about a labor strike in a factory made up of Christian, Jewish, and Arab workers. The entire community supported the workers across the board, and the solidarity among the average people was stronger then their religious bonds.

My opinion is that if you got rid of the fucked up leadership on both sides, the hardcore zionists in Israel, and the fascist jihadists in Palistine that the whole thing would look a lot different.

The history of zionism is not pretty. nor is the history of the arab right wing zealots anti-semitism. But all and all what it comes down to is two groups of hardcore bigots killing innocent civlians in order to make a point.

Until the ultra zionist part of the Israel government has it's influence and power reduced I will never support the Israel struggle. I will mourn the deaths of those innocents lost, but I will not point the finger at the other innocents caught in the struggle.

I said the same thing when Arafat was alive about Palistine. Will have to see what happens on that side of the fence in the next few years.

Many people brand Zionists as far right Arab haters. In fact many Zionists are more akin to Socialists. You see this when you stay on Kibbutzes.

Take for example Habonim Droor - a "progressive" Zionist youth organisation.

http://www.habonimdror.org/

Now I think they are as unrealistic as any socialists, but it goes to show that not all Zionists were/are the same.

To me there is already a "Palestinian" Homeland: Jordan. The vast majority of Jordanians are "Palestinian" and Jordan was created out of the vast majority of the Land Formerly Known as Palestine. Not all the Arabs of the Israel side fled, but many did - some on the orders of Arab Legion commanders who cleared villages for military use.

These things happen in wars. People lose land, people gain land. People move on. Hundreds of thousands of Jews were forced out of Arab lands after the War of Independence - you don't see them pissing and moaning about the "right to return" to their old homes in Jordan, Damascus and Baghdad. Nobody marches to protest the right of Bosnian Serbs who lost land when Bosnia was created.

The Arab world kept these people as refugees - it was devisive and cruel. They should have gone along with the rest of the Palestinians helping to shape and form a the first self-ruled Arab homeland in the region - Jordan. Instead they were kept in camps as a weapon to bash the Jews with. Why? Facsism and Islamism could not accept the presence of a non-Muslim land in the middle of their precious Ummah.

Thanks for the link.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

I see your point on a lot of things, particullary the issue of the other arab countries.

I would continue this conversation, but the way I see it, if scholars, phd's, historians, and other more qualified people can't reach a conclussion on this subject that you, and I (both of which seem to be pretty well educated on the subject) most likely will solve the problem either.

But, thank you for atleast not jumping on "your an anti-semite" band wagon as your response. I appreciatte the civility.

anti-semite