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Michael_J_Totten

Michael_J_Totten

Iraq
February 2004

NOV 15, 2004 12:55 PM

As they say, some bizarre things happen only in America. Other things happen only in Europe. Here’s the latest.

Norway banned Jews from publicly observing the anniversary of Kristallnacht.

The Norwegian diplomat Terje Roed-Larsen, who serves as the United Nation's Middle East envoy, heaped praise on Arafat yesterday with an enthusiasm that would make a Gaullist blush. "He was like a surrealistic painting, full of contradictions, full of mystery, full of inconsistencies," Mr. Roed-Larsen told Norwegian state radio NRK. "He was complex, deep, superficial, rational, irrational, cold, warm. He may be the most fascinating person I have ever met, and without comparison the most fascinating leader I have ever met."

This came at the end of a week in which Norway managed to forbid Jews from marking the anniversary of Kristallnacht, a step the French haven't yet taken. The local TV2 News reported that no Norwegian Jews participated in Oslo's commemoration of Kristallnacht."TV2 also reported that the authorities, saying they didn't want trouble, forbade any Jewish symbols, including Stars of David and Israeli flags," according to Israel's Arutz-7 radio station. "On the TV2 evening news, a group of Jews and their friends who wanted to take part in the commemoration were shown being firmly told by a policeman to 'please leave the area,'" according to a dispatch from an American journalist living in Norway, Bruce Bawer, on AndrewSullivan.com. "This in a city where Muslim demonstrations take place on a regular basis, and include signs and banners bearing hateful, barbaric slogans." The ban prompted a protest from the Simon Wiesenthal Center to the government of Norway.

FermatsEnigma

FermatsEnigma

USA
August 2004

NOV 15, 2004 03:02 PM

This comes as no surprise here

Snottlebocket

Snottlebocket

Netherlands
March 2004

NOV 15, 2004 03:07 PM

why on earth would they forbid remembering kristallnacht, disgusting things like that are exactly what we should remember.

reprobate

reprobate

New Orleans, LA
December 2002

NOV 15, 2004 03:08 PM

While I am, as always, skeptical of reports based on reports based on reports based on reports of stuff that happened a week ago, what the hell was Norway doing commemorating Kristallnacht?

AndersWolleck

AndersWolleck

Astoria, NY
February 2003

NOV 15, 2004 03:10 PM

What would Kristallnacht be like without racism?

dem_z

dem_z

United Kingdom
June 2004

NOV 15, 2004 03:13 PM

Michael_J_Totten said:
The Norwegian diplomat Terje Roed-Larsen, who serves as the United Nation's Middle East envoy, heaped praise on Arafat yesterday with an enthusiasm that would make a Gaullist blush. "He was like a surrealistic painting, full of contradictions, full of mystery, full of inconsistencies," Mr. Roed-Larsen told Norwegian state radio NRK. "He was complex, deep, superficial, rational, irrational, cold, warm. He may be the most fascinating person I have ever met, and without comparison the most fascinating leader I have ever met." [...]


Wait... that's not praise. That's diplomatic speak for "He was a nutter, but he had some support, and if I say he was evil things could get nasty."

dem_z

dem_z

United Kingdom
June 2004

NOV 15, 2004 03:18 PM

Also, from that same article:

The Fifth Republic has been one of Arafat's main sources of international support, choosing to launch its moral recriminations against Israel and America rather than Palestinian violence.

Yet the French have a huge problem not just with anti-semitism, but with racism of every type. They hate the Jews, but they hate the Muslims and Arabs and etc etc etc too.

Pav

Pav

I'm lost
February 2004

NOV 15, 2004 04:20 PM

Arafat = Terrorism = Pro-Palestine = Anti-Israel = Nazis = Krastallnacht.

About as informative and nuanced an article as any piece of Arabic journalistic trash where

America = Israel = International Zionist Conspiracy = The Crusades

remusisdying

remusisdying

Brighton, MA
March 2004

NOV 15, 2004 04:31 PM

demetrius_z said:
Also, from that same article:

The Fifth Republic has been one of Arafat's main sources of international support, choosing to launch its moral recriminations against Israel and America rather than Palestinian violence.

Yet the French have a huge problem not just with anti-semitism, but with racism of every type. They hate the Jews, but they hate the Muslims and Arabs and etc etc etc too.



in my experience, broad judgements against entire countries are nothing but accurate. 100% even.

CheshireCat

CheshireCat

Los Angeles, CA
January 2004

NOV 15, 2004 04:48 PM

yes it should be remembered but ........lets not make it a national holiday..........moving on to the future sounds more invigorating.

lostarchitect

lostarchitect

Brooklyn, NY
January 2004

NOV 15, 2004 04:57 PM

demetrius_z said:

Michael_J_Totten said:
The Norwegian diplomat Terje Roed-Larsen, who serves as the United Nation's Middle East envoy, heaped praise on Arafat yesterday with an enthusiasm that would make a Gaullist blush. "He was like a surrealistic painting, full of contradictions, full of mystery, full of inconsistencies," Mr. Roed-Larsen told Norwegian state radio NRK. "He was complex, deep, superficial, rational, irrational, cold, warm. He may be the most fascinating person I have ever met, and without comparison the most fascinating leader I have ever met." [...]


Wait... that's not praise. That's diplomatic speak for "He was a nutter, but he had some support, and if I say he was evil things could get nasty."




i was about to say the same thing.

TangledUpInBlue

TangledUpInBlue

New York, NY
February 2004

NOV 15, 2004 05:41 PM

Damn, I guess people in Glass Continents should stop with the fucking stones sometime soon, then?

No, didn't think so. Better to bitch about American 'fascism' than admit the insanity that pervades The Good Ole World.

[Edited on Nov 15, 2004 by BlueTrash]

Lit_the_Filter

Lit_the_Filter

Tacoma, WA
August 2004

NOV 15, 2004 07:27 PM

You'd think that in an article fulminating about Arafat the terrorist, some mention would be made of the terrorism that was used to found Israel.

fiends

fiends

Burbank, CA
August 2004

NOV 15, 2004 08:00 PM

I thought this was about the band Kristinallnacht frown

Aaron

Aaron

Shakopee, MN
July 2004

NOV 15, 2004 08:23 PM

Lit_the_Filter said:
You'd think that in an article fulminating about Arafat the terrorist, some mention would be made of the terrorism that was used to found Israel.



It's actually an editorial...

Shal

Shal

Los Angeles, CA
October 2002

NOV 15, 2004 08:24 PM

That's funny... according to the group that organized the Kristallnacht commemoration, SOS Rasisme, what was banned was Israeli flags.. as well as Palestinian flags. They also barred a few political groups from attending, because these groups, while pro-Israeli, are also anti-Arab and are against Arabic people living in Norway. SOS-Rasisme says they didn't want any political trouble or any anti-Arabic or anti-Palestinian statements made at a Kristallnacht commemoration.

Interesting.

According to the organizers, what they banned was what they saw as inappropriate politics, not Jews. Funny that politics is exactly what they got.

[Edited on Nov 15, 2004 by Shalome]

Aaron

Aaron

Shakopee, MN
July 2004

NOV 15, 2004 08:29 PM

Lit_the_Filter said:
You'd think that in an article fulminating about Arafat the terrorist, some mention would be made of the terrorism that was used to found Israel.



Also I'd like to know how many civilians the UN slaughtered to control the palestinians through fear. Yes they didn't want Israel established, yes there was a struggle, yes I'm sure innocents were killed, but please don't be like al jazziera and throw that word around, it has a very specific meaning.

B57913

B57913

I'm lost
May 2004

NOV 15, 2004 08:39 PM

Shalome said:
That's funny... according to the group that organized the Kristallnacht commemoration, SOS Rasisme, what was banned was Israeli flags.. as well as Palestinian flags. They also barred a few political groups from attending, because these groups, while pro-Israeli, are also anti-Arab and are against Arabic people living in Norway. SOS-Rasisme says they didn't want any political trouble or any anti-Arabic or anti-Palestinian statements made at a Kristallnacht commemoration.

Interesting.

According to the organizers, what they banned was what they saw as inappropriate politics, not Jews. Funny that politics is exactly what they got.

[Edited on Nov 15, 2004 by Shalome]



This is much more likely as anti-arab/anti-isreal sentiment is running high all over the US and Europe. It's causing a lot of political trouble for everyone and so simply silencing public protest seems to be easiest way to deal with it.

[Edited on Nov 15, 2004 by ERADICATOR]

B57913

B57913

I'm lost
May 2004

NOV 15, 2004 08:46 PM

demetrius_z said:

Michael_J_Totten said:
The Norwegian diplomat Terje Roed-Larsen, who serves as the United Nation's Middle East envoy, heaped praise on Arafat yesterday with an enthusiasm that would make a Gaullist blush. "He was like a surrealistic painting, full of contradictions, full of mystery, full of inconsistencies," Mr. Roed-Larsen told Norwegian state radio NRK. "He was complex, deep, superficial, rational, irrational, cold, warm. He may be the most fascinating person I have ever met, and without comparison the most fascinating leader I have ever met." [...]


Wait... that's not praise. That's diplomatic speak for "He was a nutter, but he had some support, and if I say he was evil things could get nasty."



Bah! The diplomat is saying the same thing everyone says about Arafat. He was very good at appearing to try to please everyone, which is why he was so good at political survival. It’s why most people acknowledge the man's genius, which is what the diplomat did, and unless I’m mistaken, that's praise.

alpha_hazard

alpha_hazard

Fort Collins, CO
April 2004

NOV 15, 2004 10:42 PM

is it really necesary to ban the star of david AND the israeli flag? I mean...doesn't the flag HAVE the star on it? it seems kind of...implied...

still...that's pretty fucking lame...next they'll only have 1 crazy night.

Shal

Shal

Los Angeles, CA
October 2002

NOV 15, 2004 11:17 PM

alpha_hazard said:
is it really necesary to ban the star of david AND the israeli flag? I mean...doesn't the flag HAVE the star on it? it seems kind of...implied...

still...that's pretty fucking lame...next they'll only have 1 crazy night.




Straight from the organizers' website:

"Vi nektet aldri davidstjerner eller andre religiøse symboler i toget."
"We never declined Stars of David or any other religious symbol in the parade."

"Israelske flagg var ikke ønsket i toget, på samme måte som palestinske flagg."
"The Israeli flag wasn't desired in the parade, and neither was the Palestinian flag."

[Edited on Nov 15, 2004 by Shalome]

Dead_Ringer

Dead_Ringer

I'm lost
September 2004

NOV 15, 2004 11:28 PM

does anyone else find it dubious that the story says Jews were banned from the occasion while in actuality only symbols of Jewish and Palestinian nationalism were banned? isn't this kinda just a story about not wanting to politicize a tragedy and not really all that "news" worthy? i'm just wondering.

edited becuase i was lazy and did not see Shalome's earlier post.

[Edited on Nov 16, 2004 by dead_ringer]

Shal

Shal

Los Angeles, CA
October 2002

NOV 15, 2004 11:34 PM

dead_ringer said:
does anyone else find it dubious that the story says Jews were banned from the occasion while in actuality only symbols of Jewish and Palestinian nationalism were banned? isn't this kinda just a story about not wanting to politicize a tragedy and not really all that "news" worthy? i'm just wondering.

edited becuase i was lazy and did not see Shalome's earlier post.

[Edited on Nov 16, 2004 by dead_ringer]




Actually, SOS Racisme's website has a quite detailed letter from the head of the organization saying exactly what the guidelines were for the parade, and saying how the media (some of which was reporting second and third-hand) was reporting erroneous information. They seem pretty dismayed.

The real story is why would the media distort something like this so heavily? Why would the media and the echo chambers take this situation and try to say that a group dedicated to anti-racist and anti-nazi causes would actively ban Jews from participating at a Kristallnacht memorial? What possible purpose would this sort of distortion serve?

I'm going to guess that it has something to do with the fact that most of the world wasn't there, most of us can't read Norwegian, and this fits nicely with the "ALL OF EUROPE HATES OUR WONDERFUL ALLIES, ISRAEL! THEY LOVE THE ARAB TERRORISTS!" weirdness that some conservatives seem to have picked up lately.

[Edited on Nov 15, 2004 by Shalome]

reprobate

reprobate

New Orleans, LA
December 2002

NOV 15, 2004 11:56 PM

Shalome said:

dead_ringer said:
does anyone else find it dubious that the story says Jews were banned from the occasion while in actuality only symbols of Jewish and Palestinian nationalism were banned? isn't this kinda just a story about not wanting to politicize a tragedy and not really all that "news" worthy? i'm just wondering.

edited becuase i was lazy and did not see Shalome's earlier post.

[Edited on Nov 16, 2004 by dead_ringer]




Actually, SOS Racisme's website has a quite detailed letter from the head of the organization saying exactly what the guidelines were for the parade, and saying how the media (some of which was reporting second and third-hand) was reporting erroneous information. They seem pretty dismayed.

The real story is why would the media distort something like this so heavily?



I think the answer to that is that the legitimate media didn't particularly. If you go back an look at who was saying what, you'll discover that they're all flaming partisan wannabes. The root source in blogland appears to be this guy's subjective take on it. Basically blogland has discovered that if they just keep repeating stuff the fact that people are talking about it becomes a story in and of itself and by the time the real facts are known that completely repudiate the meme, it's stale and nobody is paying attention. Basically its more of the right manufacturing conventional wisdom.

Thanks again, Michael.

s5

s5

STAFF

San Francisco, CA

NOV 16, 2004 12:01 AM

reprobate said:
Basically blogland has discovered that if they just keep repeating stuff the fact that people are talking about it becomes a story in and of itself and by the time the real facts are known that completely repudiate the meme, it's stale and nobody is paying attention. Basically its more of the right manufacturing conventional wisdom.



it's upsetting to think that human civilization's most advanced technology for communication and understanding has also succeeded at distancing us from reality.

at least we got a dancing banana out of the deal.

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