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Michael_J_Totten

Michael_J_Totten

Iraq
February 2004

SEP 03, 2004 10:27 AM

Never say Russia negotiates with terrorists.

BESLAN, Russia - Commandos stormed a school Friday in southern Russia and battled separatist rebels holding 1,200 hostages, as crying children, some naked and covered in blood, fled through explosions and gunfire. An official said the death toll could be significantly higher than 150.

Hours after the midday assault, three of the separatist rebels were reportedly still blockaded in a school basement, trading fire with security forces. A Federal Security Service official said militants were still holding hostages — children among them.

The school was largely secured late Friday afternoon, but a large explosion erupted from inside toward nightfall, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported. A member of an elite security unit died saving two young girls, the agency reported.

Valery Andreyev, the top Federal Security Service official in the region, said 20 militants were killed, including 10 Arabs. The Arab presence among the attackers would support President Vladimir Putin's contention that al-Qaida terrorists were involved in the Chechen conflict, where Muslim fighters have been fighting Russian forces in a brutal a war of independence for most of the past decade.


It's not surprising that Arabs were found in that school. Chechnya has a significant Sufi tradition, from which Al Qaeda style terrorism does not easily grow. Bin Ladenism turns even the best cause into a fascistic jihad.

Hundreds of children were wounded. Many were probably killed, too, but there isn't a count yet.

It's tempting to blame Russia for heavy-handed tactics here. The last time they rescued hundreds of hostages in a Moscow theater they ended up killing scores of them in the process. It's a horrible calculus. Every hostage was at risk if the Russians did not meet the Chechen demands. And a slower, more orderly assault isn't possible when the terrorists wish to be martyred. It's possible, although of course we really don't know, that this was the best possible outcome.

Snottlebocket

Snottlebocket

Netherlands
March 2004

SEP 03, 2004 10:34 AM

they just said in the news that not only are hundreds dead but also a whole cadre of the terrorists managed to escape and is on their way to a different city still packed with weapons and explosives.

Gnarface_Killah

Gnarface_Killah

Denver, CO
January 2004

SEP 03, 2004 10:50 AM

Good Job Russia. Instead of talking to the terrorist go right in and get lil kids murdered and take it out on the people of Chechnya later





I do not support the type of people who would kill little children but I thought the Russian Governtment would learn from their past mistakes at the Moscow theater but of course they didn't

[Edited on Sep 03, 2004 by rockymtn_mike]

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

SEP 03, 2004 10:54 AM

Dear Russia and Chechnya,
Right at this moment, I don't care about your politics. I don't care about your race, religion or history. Right now all I can feel is a deep disgust towards both of you. Innocent children are dead. I hope that somehow you all smarten the fuck up so this NEVER happens again.

Hethral

Hethral

Richmond, BC
April 2004

SEP 03, 2004 10:55 AM

Dealing with hostage takers doesn't work, all it does is show any lunatic that they can get what they want by killing a few innocents and threatening more.

As much as it sucks, the policy of killing everyone who tries taking hostages is the only way to put an end to attacks like this.

luckyride

luckyride

Portland, OR
May 2003

SEP 03, 2004 10:59 AM

Hethral said:
As much as it sucks, the policy of killing everyone who tries taking hostages is the only way to put an end to attacks like this.



cause it sure works! just look at the moscow theater...they killed a bunch of people and now nobody takes hostages anymore...oh wait... whatever

Michael_J_Totten

Michael_J_Totten

Iraq
February 2004

SEP 03, 2004 11:01 AM

rockymtn_mike said:
I thought the Russian Governtment would learn from their past mistakes at the Moscow theater but of course they didn't


The terrorists in Moscow were going to kill every single person if Russia had not gone in there and stopped them.

Hethral

Hethral

Richmond, BC
April 2004

SEP 03, 2004 11:04 AM


cause it sure works! just look at the moscow theater...they killed a bunch of people and now nobody takes hostages anymore...oh wait...


Right, because all it takes is doing something once to prove that's what you're going to do every time!... oh wait...

The attacks will continue till they get the idea that this is going to happen every time.

Giving in just means that the attacks will continue as long as anyone disagrees with something they're doing.

decommissioned

decommissioned

Churchs Ferry, ND
January 2003

SEP 03, 2004 11:11 AM

How do you even begin to talk with people who think they are justified in holding children hostage with guns, grenades, and exposive belts?

Who here thinks they have a common moral ground with those men? I know I don't.

After a two day long standoff with hungry children and exhausted and frightened parents, I don't blame the Russian authorities for trying to secure the school through force.

Despite the fact that I think that negotiating with people of that nature only makes them think that somehow they are worth talking to, which they aren't.

February17

February17

New York, NY
April 2003

SEP 03, 2004 11:12 AM

The news I've seen said the assault was not the Russian's idea, rather the terrorists started firing on medical workers who were administering aid to hurt children and then the Russians returned fire.
It's hard to feel anything but hatred towards a worldwide cause that feels it's ok to behead civil engineers and reporters and take a fucking school hostage. A fucking school!
These people obviously don't represent the majority of muslims or arabs in the world, but they do put a bad face on Islam. I wish the non-radical elements of the religion would do more to counter this image, but for the most part they say or do nothing.
Look at what people have done in the name of Allah in the last several years...(and I know that no other religion is much better, the Crusades being a terrible example) 9/11, the Madrid Bombings, The kidnapping and murdering of innocents, the rape and slaughter of Africans in Sudan and now a motherfucking school!
I just don't see how you can justify kidnapping a fucking school, it's like out of a bad Schwarzenegger movie or something...fucking animals.
And for those of you who are saying "Why didn't they talk to the terrorists?" What are you thinking? At a certain point you realize that certain people do not want to be reasoned with...these are people who planned and executed the kidnapping of hundreds of CHILDREN!!! What the fuck are you going to say to them?
"Well, shit if only you had said "Please release the children" we wouldn't have shot 300 six year olds through the head?"
Wishing death on someone, even one's enemies is a pretty terrible thing to do, I wish these people death.

Anton

Anton

Australia
September 2003

SEP 03, 2004 11:16 AM

FreakPirate said:
Dear Russia and Chechnya,
Right at this moment, I don't care about your politics. I don't care about your race, religion or history. Right now all I can feel is a deep disgust towards both of you. Innocent children are dead. I hope that somehow you all smarten the fuck up so this NEVER happens again.


It's fairly obvious, but that's much akin to saying:
Dear United States,
You suck for going to war with Iraq. Smarten the fuck up.

Yep, the United States military don't represent every citizen of the United States. Same goes for Russians and Chechens.

Brinstar

Brinstar

Chicago, IL
September 2002

SEP 03, 2004 11:19 AM

I read something about how people were trying to escape and were being gunned down and THAT is when the forces swarmed.

Not sure how true that is.

per

per

Norway
August 2004

SEP 03, 2004 11:20 AM

Hold on there. According to the news, no order to storm the school was given. Why the storming took place is still unclear, but the terrorists were throwing grenades around and shooting at people, and generally behaving in a totally unpredictable and outrageous way (eg nobody allowed to drink water), so it is clear the Russian forces decided at one point that they had to storm before it was too late.

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

SEP 03, 2004 11:21 AM

Anton said:

It's fairly obvious, but that's much akin to saying:
Dear United States,
You suck for going to war with Iraq. Smarten the fuck up.

Yep, the United States military don't represent every citizen of the United States. Same goes for Russians and Chechens.



Yes. I'm well aware of that. It was a statement of general disgust towards the whole situation and I figured it was apparent as such.

Perhaps I should edit it to say Dear Russian Military and Chechen Fucknut Hostage Takers?

UpTight

UpTight

I'm lost
December 2003

SEP 03, 2004 11:22 AM

Reports here were saying that most of the people were killed when the roof caved in on the Gymnasium - which collapsed when a suicide bomber accidently detonated herself.

Also, it looks like this wasn't a botched rescue operation - the terrorists started shooting the kids as they were fleeing.

Russia has made great mistakes in the past. Russia has behaved awfully in Chechnia, but I don't think there's enough evidence yet to blame them for this.

Stric9

Stric9

Philadelphia, PA
January 2004

SEP 03, 2004 11:31 AM

That whole "we don't negotiate with hostage takers" thing is pretty wild.

Edited to add:
You would think after the last time they had a hostage situation in Russia people would know better than to try to take hostages.. They literaly have zero tolerance.

[Edited on Sep 03, 2004 11:32AM]

Anton

Anton

Australia
September 2003

SEP 03, 2004 11:46 AM

FreakPirate said:

Anton said:
It's fairly obvious, but that's much akin to saying:
Dear United States,
You suck for going to war with Iraq. Smarten the fuck up.
Yep, the United States military don't represent every citizen of the United States. Same goes for Russians and Chechens.


Yes. I'm well aware of that. It was a statement of general disgust towards the whole situation and I figured it was apparent as such.
Perhaps I should edit it to say Dear Russian Military and Chechen Fucknut Hostage Takers?


It's not necessarily apparent as such. I'm hardly familiar enough with your stance on the Chechens and Russians to know where you're coming from. So yeah, you should edit it tongue. (But I'll be OK if you don't).

FreakPirate

FreakPirate

Canada
November 2002

SEP 03, 2004 11:50 AM

Anton said:

It's not necessarily apparent as such. I'm hardly familiar enough with your stance on the Chechens and Russians to know where you're coming from. So yeah, you should edit it tongue. (But I'll be OK if you don't).



Eh, fair enough. But here, how's this...

A Revised Letter Re: Dead Children

Dear Russian Military, Politicians, Policy Makers, Chechen Extremists and Terrorists:
You killed children. I don't think this will help bring anyone to support your cause. I can not even begin to understand how you thought this would work out well. I remain disgusted by this whole incident.

Sincerely,

Gerry_D

Gerry_D

Los Angeles, CA
May 2003

SEP 03, 2004 11:51 AM

It was "an unplanned emergency assault".

The reports I've read said that while the FSB was clearing away the dead in the front yard (a point agreed to be the assholes inside) that some kids ran out of the building and were then fired on from the school as they ran for their lives.

Anton

Anton

Australia
September 2003

SEP 03, 2004 11:58 AM

FreakPirate said:

Anton said:

It's not necessarily apparent as such. I'm hardly familiar enough with your stance on the Chechens and Russians to know where you're coming from. So yeah, you should edit it tongue. (But I'll be OK if you don't).



Eh, fair enough. But here, how's this...

A Revised Letter Re: Dead Children

Dear Russian Military, Politicians, Policy Makers, Chechen Extremists and Terrorists:
You killed children. I don't think this will help bring anyone to support your cause. I can not even begin to understand how you thought this would work out well. I remain disgusted by this whole incident.

Sincerely,


Cheers!

decommissioned

decommissioned

Churchs Ferry, ND
January 2003

SEP 03, 2004 11:59 AM

DonnyDorko said:
The news I've seen said the assault was not the Russian's idea, rather the terrorists started firing on medical workers who were administering aid to hurt children and then the Russians returned fire.
It's hard to feel anything but hatred towards a worldwide cause that feels it's ok to behead civil engineers and reporters and take a fucking school hostage. A fucking school!
These people obviously don't represent the majority of muslims or arabs in the world, but they do put a bad face on Islam. I wish the non-radical elements of the religion would do more to counter this image, but for the most part they say or do nothing.
Look at what people have done in the name of Allah in the last several years...(and I know that no other religion is much better, the Crusades being a terrible example) 9/11, the Madrid Bombings, The kidnapping and murdering of innocents, the rape and slaughter of Africans in Sudan and now a motherfucking school!
I just don't see how you can justify kidnapping a fucking school, it's like out of a bad Schwarzenegger movie or something...fucking animals.
And for those of you who are saying "Why didn't they talk to the terrorists?" What are you thinking? At a certain point you realize that certain people do not want to be reasoned with...these are people who planned and executed the kidnapping of hundreds of CHILDREN!!! What the fuck are you going to say to them?
"Well, shit if only you had said "Please release the children" we wouldn't have shot 300 six year olds through the head?"
Wishing death on someone, even one's enemies is a pretty terrible thing to do, I wish these people death.



just as a side comment and response to your post, I have to say that in regards to your note that bad things have been done in the name of christianity (i.e. the crusades) I think the fundamental difference is one of time period. Christianity had a reform movement which has allowed a modernization of the religion, one which includes tolerance and the acceptance of plurality. This is why a country like the united states can thrive. Islam has had no such reformation. Madras study still centers around 500 year old interpretations of the Koran. There is certainly the desire in many areas of the Muslim world for such a change to take place, and a great many muslims who are tolerant, but as a whole the religion has not made that fundamental step that other religions have.

And please, I'm not advocating or denigrating any religion over another.

cthav

cthav

USA
August 2004

SEP 03, 2004 12:03 PM

I have never made this one-sided comment before. But I want to make it now.

Dear terrorists. Fuck you. You're wrong. Fuck you. Children are dead, you have accomplished nothing positive for yourself or any other being in this universe. Grow up. You foolish childish fuckheads. Fuck you.

Dear Russian Military, Politicians, Policy Makers, Chechen Extremists: I am not informed enough on this part to make an intelligent comment.

cthav

cthav

USA
August 2004

SEP 03, 2004 12:07 PM

townmoron said:

DonnyDorko said:
The news I've seen said the assault was not the Russian's idea, rather the terrorists started firing on medical workers who were administering aid to hurt children and then the Russians returned fire.
It's hard to feel anything but hatred towards a worldwide cause that feels it's ok to behead civil engineers and reporters and take a fucking school hostage. A fucking school!
These people obviously don't represent the majority of muslims or arabs in the world, but they do put a bad face on Islam. I wish the non-radical elements of the religion would do more to counter this image, but for the most part they say or do nothing.
Look at what people have done in the name of Allah in the last several years...(and I know that no other religion is much better, the Crusades being a terrible example) 9/11, the Madrid Bombings, The kidnapping and murdering of innocents, the rape and slaughter of Africans in Sudan and now a motherfucking school!
I just don't see how you can justify kidnapping a fucking school, it's like out of a bad Schwarzenegger movie or something...fucking animals.
And for those of you who are saying "Why didn't they talk to the terrorists?" What are you thinking? At a certain point you realize that certain people do not want to be reasoned with...these are people who planned and executed the kidnapping of hundreds of CHILDREN!!! What the fuck are you going to say to them?
"Well, shit if only you had said "Please release the children" we wouldn't have shot 300 six year olds through the head?"
Wishing death on someone, even one's enemies is a pretty terrible thing to do, I wish these people death.



just as a side comment and response to your post, I have to say that in regards to your note that bad things have been done in the name of christianity (i.e. the crusades) I think the fundamental difference is one of time period. Christianity had a reform movement which has allowed a modernization of the religion, one which includes tolerance and the acceptance of plurality. This is why a country like the united states can thrive. Islam has had no such reformation. Madras study still centers around 500 year old interpretations of the Koran. There is certainly the desire in many areas of the Muslim world for such a change to take place, and a great many muslims who are tolerant, but as a whole the religion has not made that fundamental step that other religions have.

And please, I'm not advocating or denigrating any religion over another.



I think Stan Tenon, in unexpected ways, has done wonders to reconcile the different major religions.
http://www.meru.org/PeaceGeometry/PeacewithGeometry.html
http://www.meru.org/PeaceGeometry/Reconciliation.html

Gnarface_Killah

Gnarface_Killah

Denver, CO
January 2004

SEP 03, 2004 12:08 PM

Michael_J_Totten said:

rockymtn_mike said:
I thought the Russian Governtment would learn from their past mistakes at the Moscow theater but of course they didn't


The terrorists in Moscow were going to kill every single person if Russia had not gone in there and stopped them.



Yea they were but in the end the death toll was 116 people killed by the russian government to 6 by the chechen rebels.

rottenart

rottenart

Norman, OK
February 2004

SEP 03, 2004 12:13 PM

so why doesn't moscow just let chechnya have it's independence again?

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