NEWS: Light on Bush's Guard Records?

Comparing Turkey to Iraq is way off base. In fact comparing ANY middle eastern nation to Turkey is way off base. Turkey is even in NATO...whoa. The west didn't create Turkey. Turkey was secular, even 4 years before Iraq was created.

Anyway, There WERE democratic regimes in the middle east....most western backed...they have failed...that's the point. I don't think there are WMD's, you missed the point entirely....if Conservatives think there were WMD's why aren't we concerned that they're floating around? The yellow cake you speak of...when it's touched by someone with credibility we'll talk about it. You think Iran is on the verge of historic change...seriously? Where have you been living for the past 25 years? The students hardly control shit and won't for a long damn time...hope is good but Iran won't change for a long time.

You've ignored many of the points I've raised...so please tell me about your clear plan for Iraq and your great invasion plan for north Korea. And I see Al-Zarawari fell off your map as quick as osama fell of Bush's.

Um, no, Al-Zarkawi didn't fall off my map. His presense there only bolsters the point that the Iraqi Gov. was giving him respite. Only one of the contentions for the invation was WMD, another that Iraq harbored Al-Qaida opporatives, (Zarkawi's presence is proof, as is his medical care in Bagdad in late 2001)

As far as N Korea, apperently you didn't actually read my post, or you are trying to put words in my mouth. I never said we should have invaded N Korea. That would have been stupid. Hell, we know they have nukes, they admit it. They have Balistic misiles capable of reaching our west coast. I said We should have FOCUSSED on N Korea, not invade. Don't put words in my mouth. I haven't tried to twist anything anybody else has said.

And by the way YOU are the one who brought up there being no successful democracies in the Middle East. I just pointed out Turkey, a prodominantly Muslim country backed my the west who is very successful.

Right because you actually answered anything...his presence bolsters nothing because we didn't know he was there it's a little after the fact don't ya' think? Once again you bring up WMD's but you only think it was part of why we went in...OK do you really think the people would've gotten behind this war if it wasn't about an imminent threat...which is what we were told. Would congress would have gotten behind it...and did they really take all the intel.? Or did they choose what to hear?

You said we should've dealt with N. Korea before we dealt with Iraq...well, if dealing with Iraq with military force was necessary why is North Korea different...why should I think you mean otherwise? I read it as it should've been maybe you should be more clear..or stop changing your story? Turkey wasn't created by western backed democracies which was the point...see the difference?
I do thank you for speaking your mind and appreciate opposing viewpoints though...I just feel passionate about the points you've raised.

Sarin has a shelf life of what, 8 months? The warheads that were found with the gas where from 1993? So unless he could convince US civilians to DRINK the gas I don't see them as WMD. Of course those still eyeing Bush as a valid world leader probably could be convinced of this.

Ok, though we all have to agree it is waaaay to late to do anything about it, this is how I think all this should have been handled.

1) We should have tripled if not quadrupled the number of UN inspecters in Iraq to cover more ground than Saddam could have had time to deal with. By that I mean if he was moving or hiding anything the chance of that going unnoticed was lessened. Also the presense of more inspectors might have tuned up more connections with Al-Qaida in N Iraq (this is where Ansar Al-Islam was based). The fact is that sanctions were not working, the oil for food program was a disaster, and tip-toeing around just sux. In short, the UN should have stepped up a little stronger, stop with the bs resolutions that they never seemed to enforce and take a little action.

2) N Korea, focus on them much in the way we have been. Put more presure on Russia and China to use their influence on N Korea. This issue is extremely dangerous for them too, and they know it. But if we had shifted attention to N Korea a little more, move things along there perhaps Iraq would have relaxed a little and something might have been found by the inspectors. We will never know.

3) Put Rush and Rosie O'donnal in a padded room with cricket bats and see who comes out alive. (irrelevant as hell but both of them annoy the living hell out of me)

As far as the passion, I hear you there. I enjoy the dialog here. I don't get it very much elsewhere, and as a result, I am very out of practice in my arguementative skills. Honing, honing, tryin to sharpen the mind. . .

well, we didn't want the smoking gun to come in the form of a mushroom cloud. mushroom cloud. mushroom cloud. mushroom cloud. smoking gun. mushroom cloud. mushroom cloud. terrorists. smoke 'em out. mushroom cloud. smoke 'em out. smoke 'em out. terrorists. terror. terrorists. terror. bring 'em on.

i should write speeches...

I'd have to say that was well done...Bravo.

Um, as sirin is a chemical, and the particular shell found was a binary agent that was sealed tight, there is no "shelf-life" if it had been used correctly, it would have been devastatingly efficient.

The shell wasn't binary. It was an old shell, converted into a roadside bomb. I remember Colin Powell saying in 20.0 that there was no evidence of Iraq actively trying to obtain anything of the sort. This was proably some shell that he fired at the Kurds in 1991...when George the First let it happen.

PS: Oh only traces of sarin were found, And yes it's spelled sarin.

[Edited on Jul 27, 2004 by Raoul_Duke]

you know, we've gotten off on another tangent, which is great, because the discussion inhere is actually intelligent and courteous (stock? where are you?)

i just wanted to say to those that think this story is beat to death:

my dad can't walk. he hasn't walked since 1968, when he was hurt in training to go to vietnam. soon after he became a morphine addict at the behest of the US Govt. this is not so fun when you're 18-21. and he enlisted, rather than get drafted and did so because it was just what he had to do. when i hear that bush got his daddy to get him an honourable discharge after not fulfilling his obligations in the AIR FUCKING GUARD or dick cheney say, "i had other priorities during vietnam," it feels to me like they are taking large sheet metal screws and slowly drilling them into my dad's useless legs and laughing as they do so, saying, "ha ha. fuck you.". especially when they cum all over themselves talking about the war. i think just about anyone in my position feels almost the same way. so, please, for the sake of my dad's useless legs' honour, vote this arrogant, lying, un-intelligent, worthless sack of shit out of office.

Here is a link. The one we are talking about was in fact binary. The Mustard Gas one found around the same time was not, that is the one that was stored improperly and therefore rendered inert.shell
Appologies, it was a quick search, and it is a conservative sight.

No I think that's right it was binary...the mustard wasn't...but the shell was a
Dud..and not part of any past stockpile.

More almost sarin bomb info....

[Edited on Jul 27, 2004 by Raoul_Duke]

Rottenart, I feal for you. My Uncle Lee was in the Navy serving in Vietnam. He was exposed to AO and subsequently came down with leukemia. Not until this year did the US Government acknowledge that his illness was a direct result from active duty combat. He was finally honored this year as a casualty of Vietnam. So for many of us, that war is still barely having any true resolution. I hate the draft dodgers, and there are too many on both sides to point too many fingers. They were all wrong. Bush did at least serve in the Guard. Which is more than we can say for Cheney, Clinton, and way too many more.

at least clinton was overseas cuz he was like, um, a rhodes scholar or something.

but yeah, you're right.

Also, SARIN IS NOT A WMD.

.end.