The Koran and muslims

Ok I read here lots of stupid facts about Koran and muslims. so here are facts about it.

Even you believe in God, please understand I read Koran as an atheist so it is just for me a political book.

female genital mutilation
What it is not written in Koran, is allowed. That's why some muslim people (Egyptians) practise female circumcision. But there is an hadith (something Muhamed says) : women's sex pleasure is important so it is not a good idea to practise this mutilation.
There are three sorts of FGM :
- the removal of the clitoris only
- the excision of the clitoris and surrounding labia
- the removal of clitoris, inner and outer labia and the sewing-up of the vagina

The first one is the only one Muhamed says you can do it but it is not advised. Most of muslims are against FGM.

Polygamy
You can only have 4 women.
Why ?
When Muhamed was alive, there were a lots of war and not men anymore. It was easier women to have the same husband. Now we can say it is not justified anymore. But Koran is Allah's word that's why it is still practised.
There are differences between sunnites and chiites.
Chiites (Iran for example) admit the temporary mariage. You can marry a girl for one hour or one week. You can have sexual acts with her and divorced.
Why :
- they use a weak hadith (there are strong hadiths ; it means muslims are sure Allah is agree with them and weak hadiths ; it means they can be false.)
The problem is Koran says if you divorce, you have the duty to help your ex wife. lots of muslims don't do that.

about polygamy : you have to treat your women egally. Now to refuse polygamy (they don't have the right to do) muslim women say "male muslims are not so good as Muhamed so they can't have many women".

Stoning
Stoning is not really allowed in Kuran and in Sunna (Muhamed's life).
You have to remember Muhamed wants to keep the country quiet with the Koran.
He knows he can not forbid the stoning because it was a tradition. so he defines hard conditions.
You can be stoned for adultery (maybe for homosexual acts too I don't know). Muhamed says "4 muslim witnesses have to see penis goes into the vagina and adultery is proved". It is really impossible to see, admit it !
right now :
Nigeria practise the chariah and many persons are stoned. To protect them you can not use the human rights because Allah's law is stronger than human rights.
so you use the chariah. Amina Lawal was accused of adultery because she was divorced and pregant. Her attorney tell to the court magical birth exist in Koran. she was reprieved.
other attorneys used to tell muslims are modest (it is a duty). so they don't have the right to look a copulation. so they can't say they have seen an adulterian penetration.

Muhamed and paedophilia
Lots of people think Muhamed was a paedophile because he marry Aicha when she was 6 and have sexual relations with her when she was 9. We can't judge history. In France King Louis XIV have his first sexual relation when he was 9 with a 50 years old woman. paedophila is a recent concept.
There are problems right now because sme muslims think they can do, in the 21th century, as Muhamed. In Iran, law authorised to marry a 9 years old girl if she is pubescent. It will take a long time to change mentalities about that.

Problems

of course Muhamed can not write for all times of life, especially for now in the 21th century. So new hadiths are written every day. Koran's readers used to tell "if Muhamed says that maybe he wants to tell that".
for example a devote female muslim can not wear shoes with heels. It will make noise and male can watch her.

We have to differenciate Koran from his applications.
- for example talibans forbade birds's singing. Music is not really forbidden in Koran but if music can stop you to think about religion, it is bad. talibans consider birds did that, that's why they forbade them.
- Iran's laws come not from Koran. Khomeiny was an ayatollah so he has rights to read and to interpret the Koran. That's why lays are so strong and so different from Kuran.
- burka is not allowed in Koran, even it is totally forbidden. A muslim woman has to show her face, her hands and her ankles.


I mean if you are clever (and talibans were) you can read the Koran and tell what you want. some hadiths are not very clear and you can interpret hem as you want.
That's what is done when there are trials for adultery.

Hope it can help to understand better.

any doctrine text can be perverted in any way.

What I like is that most Muslims in the world are illiterate and so they have to rely on wild-eyed mullahs to tell them what to think. That's why we'll never be successful in democratizing Iraq. It's like trying let a herd of cows elect a cow president.

christians were none the better during the middleages, only monks were the ones to interpret the latin bible. oddly, the middle east used to be the enlightened & advanced ones until european meddling.

No, it's because we're telling a group, or rather several traditionally conflicting groups of people, all who hate us with good reason (sanctions, wars, colonization comparing them to cows) to set up a unified, homogeneous democracy with all the choices we enjoy. Just so long as they choose to like the West who has fucked them over for years, and choose to give us their oil, and choose to ignore their traditional tribal differences. Then they have to form a unified, secular, capitalist society in which previously existing cultural identities take a back seat. Okaaaaaay do it........... now!

prove that with statistics. thanks. Of course you know Iran has strong students and a few people don't know how to read.

If I open this thread, it was a lot of people here don't know Koran. If the thread is going to be "let's vomit on muslims and arabs" , it will be sad.


[Edited on May 14, 2004 by mathilde74]

If you are so ill-informed as to try to refute this statement, I don't have the time, nor the inclination, to educate you.

ohhh an insult ? so you have no statistics ? ok I will give you some.

Iran (one of the strong islamic country).
"En 2001, le taux d'alphabétisation de la population de plus de six ans a atteint 80,4 % (85,1 % des hommes et 75,6 % des femmes). "
I translate.
in 2001, the literacy tuition for people who is over 6 years old : 80.4 % (85.1 for men and 75.6 % for women).

We can compare with Marocco, wich is less islamic.
age 15 and over can read and write
all people : 51,7% ; men : 64,1% ; women : 39,4% (2003 est.)

IRAK
70,7 % for men and 45 % for women.


a little comparison with another countries, which are not islamic countries
Laos : 52,8%
congo : 65.5 %

[Edited on May 14, 2004 by mathilde74]

I have no idea what you're even talking about. I'm guessing that these uncredited statistics might apply to Iraq, although it doesn't say. If you read my original post, it refers to ALL Muslims. I stand by that statement. Stick to Jerry Lewis movies.

i liked it better en francais...............
i scared myself by actually reading that, and understanding!
ma grandmere would be so proud....

and,
why would anyone want to cut off a clitoris?

"Stick to Jerry Lewis movies." yes and I will eat frogs too.

so I repeat slowly. Here are the statistics (taken from UNICEF ; you just have to verify) for Iran and another countries.

unicef in french Iran

now for all muslims in the word..... really I need stats . But you have no time that's true.

Ok it is the thread where evrybody is going to tell "I hate the arab". I should know it.

[Edited on May 14, 2004 by mathilde74]

sorry KlikKlak, maybe you can explain better than me in english ?

"why would anyone want to cut off a clitoris?". the old african traditions say it is the male part of the woman as the glans is the female part of men. That's why they cut them at the beginning. After males say "women are weak and take all pleasure from clitoris ; they will commit adultery so let's cut it".
You know it was all around the word. until the 19th century, we used to do that in France, in USA and United Kingdom. A tool was even created to cut the clitoris (science said clitoris made the masturbation to exist).

by all muslims are you including American-Muslims?

nope, you explain it perfectly,
i just like it better in french............

As for most muslims being illiterate, that is kind of a dumb thing to say. If you want to say most middle eastern revolutionaries are pretty iliterate, you'd be closer, but you'd be kidding yourself there too.

The reason people don't say "all Christians are illiterate" is not because they have some resounding commitment to literacy, it's because it's just too large of a group to say something like that. You could say the same thing about the Muslims; not saying you're Christian, merely making a point.

On the other hand, about those literacy rates: the country itself gets to report them, and they're not really updated that often. Some country (I believe it was North Korea?) reports 100% literacy. They really don't mean anything.

FonzieMania really had this whole post answered with one sentence..

milkplus : I read at the moment Tadjikistan reports 99 % ! Incredible !
a french economist explains there are links between fertility and literacy.

thanks KlikKlak . It sounds a little hypocritical (just a joke ) but I do appreciate. I will go on to write some long and incomprehensible posts. lol.

[Edited on May 14, 2004 by mathilde74]

psh, links between fertility and literacy? they just know more positions to use

and now that I go to look it up, north korea does actually report 99% literacy or something illogical like that, hehe.

Selected literacy rates, from the CIA world fact book:

• Afghanistan - 36%


• Morocco - 51%


• Iraq - 40%


• Iran - 79%

For comparison some western countries:

• France - 99%


• USA - 97%


• Brazil - 86%


• New Zealand - 99%

Some other countries:

• Cambodia - 69%


• Nepal - 45%


• China - 86%


• Cuba - 97%

Nah, just the terrorist type.

Woah, the list function made that bigger than it really needed to be.

Your numbers don't seem to agree with the French lady's numbers. Sounds like a terrorist conspiracy to me.

Both the Koran & the Bible have chapters and rules that look attrocious in today's society. It is down to religions, teachers and adherants to reject these things and adapt to modern times.

No cultural sensitivities will ever persuade me that women shouldn't have the same rights as men or that gay people should be persecuted. There is no justification for that shit.

I wouldn't vist a Muslim country anytime soon, if I were you. They might strap a bomb to your chest and launch you toward Israel on the back of a Scud.

Are you implying that the CIA and Unicef are conspiring to sow confusion on the SG message boards?

Cause if that were true, it would be kinda cool

Just raising the possibility is all...WAIT!!! Is that a black helicopter I see hovering outside my window!?!