Why do Israel-Zionism discussions aways get closed

Firstly, I'm not really on either side here.

I'm leftwing, but I support Israel to a certain degree, but am critical of settlers etc. I think the Palestinians deserve their own state, but think as long as suicide-bomber continue Israel is on the moral-high ground.

Basically leaders on both sides need to stop acting like little boys and sort their shit out.

BUT, every time a debate about this starts on SG it gets shut down very quickly… Why?

Maybe people get too heated and SG doesn't want people to be offended to the point of leaving the site...? Just guessing.

I agree that this really needs to be sorted out...but there's a ton of history behind it all...
People still feel strongly and will continue to because people are being murdered

Probably the seven Jew bankers who control the world's money supply had something to do with it.

Probably the seven Jew bankers who control the world's money supply had something to do with it.

hey...watch it!

[Edited on Mar 23, 2004 by mislaid]

Trust me he's taking the piss, Penates is a straight-up guy

Yeah, that's pretty true.

This kind of debate probably devolves into conspiracy theories pretty damn fast. Plus what was said about it being such a complicated issue.

Yeah, and speaking as an American Taoist Jew, I'm offended. It's eight Jew bankers controlling the money supply... one for each of the world's corporations.

I find it hard to take the rest of the Arabic world seriously on the Israel issue. If they were so concerned about the Palastinians, why do they (especially Syria and Saudi Arabia) keep them crammed in camps and hovels on their borders and kill those who decide to go back to Israel and live as normal citizens in Israel? People who take up the Palestinian side tend to forget that Israel is the only country in that region where Palestinians can live, work, register to vote, own property, and lead normal lives. It's when they refuse to live as citizens that things go badly for them... though when they do live as citizens, Hamas and the PLO have been known to torture and kill them as sympathizers.

I don't think Israel is entirely innocent in all of its dealings with the PLO and its Palestinian population, and I'm not a fan of Sharon, but I still think by and large the world opinion is very one-sided against them.

Will that shut this debate down?

Because some people don't know the difference between polite disageement and anti-semitic rhetoric. Just as racism gets topics closed, so does religious hate speech.

Now, go buy those nice boys & girls a Pesach package, you cheap bastards.

This link is pretty fucking funny!

Funny? Funny how? Funny like a clown?
I amuse you? I make you laugh? I'm here to fuckin' amuse you?

How the fuck am I funny? What the fuck is so funny about that link?

that makes sense... i guess i just wish other countries... all other countries... wouldn't get involved on either side.

S5, you forgot the inevitable invocations of Hitler and hysterical rants about Freemasons, the pyramids, antigrav and free energy machines, Bigfoot-operated flying saucers at the South Pole and how they all tie in to orangutans.

But enough about Reprobate...

I have a guy who calls up about once a month and wants to talk about how Osama bin Laden is behind Indonesian deforestation. I'm giving him your phone number.

I’m not sure that firing missiles into civilian neighborhoods,shooting at rock throwing children or running over peace activists with bull dozers is on any morally higher ground than the despicable acts of suicide bombers. The Israeli’s just have better technology. It should be remembered that the “morally superior” Israeli’s pioneered many of the tactics used by Hamas, Al Qaeda and other contemporary terrorists groups. The Israeli’s were the first to hijack a civilian airliner (1954) and the first and the first to detonate a car bomb (The early Zionist movement used one in 1946 to destroy the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 88 people.) But maybe that is okay since they are "the good guys."

I think the answer to this question is more straightforward. Any time you get people who try to articulate a position in defense of terrorists, suicide bombers, woman-abusing fundamentalist clerics and good old fashioned criminals, it will inevitably be frustrating for right-thinking people to carry on a reasoned discussion. Unfortunately, the site has recently attracted a large cadre of people like I just described. I suppose that's one of the prices of success. Thank goodness Sean is around to keep the inmates from taking over the asylum.

First, for those who prefer ALL of the facts:

"The King David Hotel was the site of the British military command and the British Criminal Investigation Division. The Irgun chose it as a target after British troops invaded the Jewish Agency June 29, 1946, and confiscated large quantities of documents. At about the same time, more than 2,500 Jews from all over Palestine were placed under arrest. The information about Jewish Agency operations, including intelligence activities in Arab countries, was taken to the King David Hotel.

A week later, news of a massacre of 40 Jews in a pogrom in Poland reminded the Jews of Palestine how Britain's restrictive immigration policy had condemned thousands to death.

Irgun leader Menachem Begin stressed his desire to avoid civilian casualties and said three telephone calls were placed, one to the hotel, another to the French Consulate, and a third to the Palestine Post, warning that explosives in the King David Hotel would soon be detonated.

On July 22, 1946, the calls were made. The call into the hotel was apparently received and ignored. Begin quotes one British official who supposedly refused to evacuate the building, saying: "We don't take orders from the Jews."1 As a result, when the bombs exploded, the casualty toll was high: a total of 91 killed and 45 injured. Among the casualties were 15 Jews. Few people in the hotel proper were injured by the blast."

funny- Palestinians never call to warn anyone...




2nd-


"Israeli’s were the first to hijack a civilian airliner (1954)"


??


can i have a link to some info about that please?

[Edited on Mar 23, 2004 by Grooverider]

Ok, i can understand this.

So it is okay to kill civillians with car bombs if you notify them in advance, even if you know that warning was ignored? Spin it however you like. This looks like terrorism to me and, like all acts that deliberately target civillians, should be condemed, not defended.

See Chomsky's chapter in "International Terrorism: Image and Reality" in Western State Terrorism edited by Alexander George.
The chapter is online.
Or here is the relevant quote from Chomsky:

Personal to smithers_jones:

My solution to the problem is an "A Bomb in Palastine Street."

no need to twist my words- i wasn't defending it in my former comment- just trying to stress the dfference.

3 ignored phone calls- same as IRA methods- yes, it is terrorism, and NO- it's not the same.

a. thanks for the link- i'll give it some more attention when i have more time later.



i have lots more to say, but it doesn't matter- you seem very fixed in your opinion, and i've given up on trying to change stubborn people's minds.

and anyway- this thread started out on an entirely different note, so feel free to drop by my journal page if you like to continue this conversation.


peace,
G.

Ah, the inevitable Chomsky citation!

Now do the one where old Noam talks about the "secret genocide" that he learned the US and eee-vil oil companies were going to launch on hapless Afghans. That's my favorite.

*****

I’m not sure that firing missiles into civilian neighborhoods,shooting at rock throwing children or running over peace activists with bull dozers is on any morally higher ground than the despicable acts of suicide bombers.

Well,

1) When terrorists and their leaders hide in and among civilians, they invite such attacks. Sorry, but that's how it works.

2) Do those "rock throwing children" include 17 and 18 yr olds lobbing cinderblocks and bowling-ball sized stones from rooftops? Because that's what the IDF soldiers are usually shooting back at. If you doubt the lethality of such projectiles, we can arrange a test...

3) "Peace activists with bulldozers..." is this a reference to St. Rachel Corrie, Our Lady of the Treads (aka The Pancake of Palestine)?

For those playing along at home, Rachel lost a shoving match with a bulldozer while trying to stop the IDF from clearing houses used for smuggling terrorist personnel and equipment. Not exactly the Dalai Lama, now was she?

Cry me a river.

[Edited on Mar 23, 2004 by TipAndRing]

Oh, and just for the record:

(1) I do not hold the Israeli state or govt to be above reproach or justified in doing anything it pleases because of its status as a sanctuary for Jewish people.

(2) I do not believe that criticism of Israeli military actions or statecraft is automatically anti-Semitic because Israel is "the Jewish country."

(3) I do not regard Arabs (incl the so-called Palestinians) as unworthy of sympathy, nor do I categorically dismiss their grievances against Israel and the USA, many of which have merit and need to be frankly addressed.