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JAN 11, 2010 11:20 AM
The goal of this case is to get it moved up to the US Supreme Court and decide, once and for all, if it is constitutional for any state to ban gay marriage. I am looking forward to the fight.
JAN 11, 2010 05:42 PM
papawheelie said:
separation of church and state!
Fuck that! Freedom of Religion. How dare the government step on my religious belief that God loves all people equally?
JAN 11, 2010 09:42 PM
Really good updates from the Courage Campaign at Prop8TrialTracker.
Here is the text of Ted Olson's opening statement as it was prepared.
The federal trial over the unconstitutionality of Proposition 8 began today with an opening statement by attorney Theodore Olson, who with David Boies is leading the legal team assembled by the American Foundation for Equal Rights to litigate the case Perry v. Schwarzenegger. Opening statements will be followed by testimony from Kris Perry, Sandy Stier, Paul Katami and Jeff Zarrillo, who comprise two couples who wish to be married but who were denied marriage licenses because of Proposition 8.
After the opening statement David Boies gave the direct examination of Jeff Zarrillo and Paul Katami.
OPENING STATEMENT
(as prepared)
This case is about marriage and equality. Plaintiffs are being denied both the right to marry, and the right to equality under the law.
The Supreme Court of the United States has repeatedly described the right to marriage as “one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men;” a “basic civil right;” a component of the constitutional rights to liberty, privacy, association, and intimate choice; an expression of emotional support and public commitment; the exercise of spiritual unity; and a fulfillment of one’s self.
In short, in the words of the highest court in the land, marriage is “the most important relation in life,” and “of fundamental importance for all individuals.”
As the witnesses in this case will elaborate, marriage is central to life in America. It promotes mental, physical and emotional health and the economic strength and stability of those who enter into a marital union. It is the building block of family, neighborhood and community. The California Supreme Court has declared that the right to marry is of “central importance to an individual’s opportunity to live a happy, meaningful, and satisfying life as a full member of society.”
Proposition 8 ended the dream of marriage, the most important relation in life, for the plaintiffs and hundreds of thousands of Californians.
___________________________________
In May of 2008, the California Supreme Court concluded that under this State’s Constitution, the right to marry a person of one’s choice extended to all individuals, regardless of sexual orientation, and was available equally to same-sex and opposite-sex couples.
In November of 2008, the voters of California responded to that decision with Proposition 8, amending the State’s Constitution and, on the basis of sexual orientation and sex, slammed the door to marriage to gay and lesbian citizens.
The plaintiffs are two loving couples, American citizens, entitled to equality and due process under our Constitution. They are in deeply committed, intimate, and longstanding relationships. They want to marry the person they love; to enter into that “most important relation in life”; to share their dreams with their partners; and to confer the many benefits of marriage on their families.
But Proposition 8 singled out gay men and lesbians as a class, swept away their right to marry, pronounced them unequal, and declared their relationships inferior and less-deserving of respect and dignity.
In the words of the California Supreme Court, eliminating the right of individuals to marry a same-sex partner relegated those individuals to “second class” citizenship, and told them, their families and their neighbors that their love and desire for a sanctioned marital partnership was not worthy of recognition.
During this trial, Plaintiffs and leading experts in the fields of history, psychology, economics and political science will prove three fundamental points:
First – Marriage is vitally important in American society.
Second – By denying gay men and lesbians the right to marry, Proposition 8 works a grievous harm on the plaintiffs and other gay men and lesbians throughout California, and adds yet another chapter to the long history of discrimination they have suffered.
Third – Proposition 8 perpetrates this irreparable, immeasurable, discriminatory harm for no good reason.
I
MARRIAGE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT RELATION IN LIFE
Plaintiffs will present evidence from leading experts, representing some of the finest academic institutions in this country and the world, who will reinforce what the highest courts of California and the United States have already repeatedly said about the importance of marriage in society and the significant benefits that marriage confers on couples, their families, and the community. Proponents cannot dispute these basic facts.
While marriage has been a revered and important institution throughout the history of this country and this State, it has also evolved to shed irrational, unwarranted, and discriminatory restrictions and limitations that reflected the biases, prejudices or stereotypes of the past. Marriage laws that disadvantaged women or people of disfavored race or ethnicity have been eliminated. These changes have come from legislatures and the courts. Far from harming the institution of marriage, the elimination of discriminatory restrictions on marriage has strengthened the institution, its vitality, and its importance in American society today.
II
PROPOSITION 8 HARMS GAY AND LESBIAN INDIVIDUALS, THEIR CHILDREN AND THEIR COMMUNITIES
Proposition 8 had a simple, straightforward, and devastating purpose: to withdraw from gay and lesbian people like the Plaintiffs their previously recognized constitutional right to marry. The official title of the ballot measure said it all: “Eliminates Right of Same-Sex Couples to Marry.”
Proponents of Proposition 8 have insisted that the persons they would foreclose from the institution of marriage have suffered no harm because they have been given the opportunity to form something called a “domestic partnership.” That is a cruel fiction.
Plaintiffs will describe the harm that they suffer every day because they are prevented from marrying. And they will describe how demeaning and insulting it can be to be told that they remain free to marry—as long, that is, that they marry someone of the opposite sex instead of the person they love, the companion of their choice.
And the evidence will demonstrate that relegating gay men and lesbians to “domestic partnerships” is to inflict upon them badges of inferiority that forever stigmatize their loving relationships as different, separate, unequal, and less worthy—something akin to a commercial venture, not a loving union. Indeed, the proponents of Proposition 8 acknowledge that domestic partnerships are not the same as traditional marriage. Proponents proudly proclaim that, under Proposition 8, the “unique and highly favorable imprimatur” of marriage is reserved to “opposite-sex unions.”
This government-sponsored societal stigmatization causes grave psychological and physical harms to gay men and lesbians and their families. It increases the likelihood that they will experience discrimination and harassment; it causes immeasurable harm.
Sadly, Proposition 8 is only the most recent chapter in our nation’s long and painful history of discrimination and prejudice against gay and lesbian individuals. They have been classified as degenerates, targeted by police, harassed in the workplace, censored, demonized, fired from government jobs, excluded from our armed forces, arrested for their private sexual conduct, and repeatedly stripped of their fundamental rights by popular vote. Although progress has occurred, the roots of discrimination run deep and its impacts spread wide.
III
PROPOSITION 8 HARMS GAY AND LESBIAN INDIVIDUALS FOR NO GOOD REASON
Proposition 8 singles out gay and lesbian individuals alone for exclusion from the institution of marriage. In California, even convicted murderers and child abusers enjoy the freedom to marry. As the evidence clearly establishes, this discrimination has been placed in California’s Constitution even though its victims are, and always have been, fully contributing members of our society. And it excludes gay men and lesbians from the institution of marriage even though the characteristic for which they are targeted—their sexual orientation—like race, sex, and ethnicity, is a fundamental aspect of their identity that they did not choose for themselves and, as the California Supreme Court has found, is highly resistant to change.
The State of California has offered no justification for its decision to eliminate the fundamental right to marry for a segment of its citizens. And its chief legal officer, the Attorney General, admits that none exists. And the evidence will show that each of the rationalizations for Proposition 8 invented by its Proponents is wholly without merit.
“Procreation” cannot be a justification inasmuch as Proposition 8 permits marriage by persons who are unable or have no intention of producing children. Indeed, the institution of civil marriage in this country has never been tied to the procreative capacity of those seeking to marry.
Proposition 8 has no rational relation to the parenting of children because same-sex couples and opposite sex couples are equally permitted to have and raise children in California. The evidence in this case will demonstrate that gay and lesbian individuals are every bit as capable of being loving, caring and effective parents as heterosexuals. The quality of a parent is not measured by gender but the content of the heart.
And, as for protecting “traditional marriage,” our opponents “don’t know” how permitting gay and lesbian couples to marry would harm the marriages of opposite-sex couples. Needless to say, guesswork and speculation is not an adequate justification for discrimination. In fact, the evidence will demonstrate affirmatively that permitting loving, deeply committed, couples like the plaintiffs to marry has no impact whatsoever upon the marital relationships of others.
When voters in California were urged to enact Proposition 8, they were encouraged to believe that unless Proposition 8 were enacted, anti-gay religious institutions would be closed, gay activists would overwhelm the will of the heterosexual majority, and that children would be taught that it was “acceptable” for gay men and lesbians to marry. Parents were urged to “protect our children” from that presumably pernicious viewpoint.
At the end of the day, whatever the motives of its Proponents, Proposition 8 enacted an utterly irrational regime to govern entitlement to the fundamental right to marry, consisting now of at least four separate and distinct classes of citizens: (1) heterosexuals, including convicted criminals, substance abusers and sex offenders, who are permitted to marry; (2) 18,000 same-sex couples married between June and November of 2008, who are allowed to remain married but may not remarry if they divorce or are widowed; (3) thousands of same-sex couples who were married in certain other states prior to November of 2008, whose marriages are now valid and recognized in California; and, finally (4) all other same-sex couples in California who, like the Plaintiffs, are prohibited from marrying by Proposition 8.
There is no rational justification for this unique pattern of discrimination. Proposition 8, and the irrational pattern of California’s regulation of marriage which it promulgates, advances no legitimate state interest. All it does is label gay and lesbian persons as different, inferior, unequal, and disfavored. And it brands their relationships as not the same, and less-approved than those enjoyed by opposite sex couples. It stigmatizes gays and lesbians, classifies them as outcasts, and causes needless pain, isolation and humiliation.
It is unconstitutional.
^^^
This coming from the guy who argued Bush v. Gore... on BUSH'S side. He's an old school, blue-blooded, big R, bold text Republican, and he is a total legal badass. To have him arguing for plaintiffs here is a public relations and strategic coup that can't be understated. I am on record of being skeptical of the chances of success in the Federal court system, especially in the near term. On the other hand, two advocates like Olson and Boies working together and making the case for equality in the strongest terms could have political and social ramifications that far outreach the powers of the Courts.
Hopefully SCOTUS will lift the restriction on broadcasting this live. Regardless, the trial will almost certainly be more interesting than the actual decision.
JAN 11, 2010 09:47 PM
Here's another article on it.
Agreed a million times over, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE ALREADY, sheesh!!!
JAN 11, 2010 10:56 PM
So, the reason the YouTube channel isn't up is due to the US Supreme Court handed down an order delaying/postponing any broadcast of the trial. Source (SCOTUSblog)
JAN 12, 2010 07:05 AM
Subrosa said:
This coming from the guy who argued Bush v. Gore... on BUSH'S side. He's an old school, blue-blooded, big R, bold text Republican, and he is a total legal badass. To have him arguing for plaintiffs here is a public relations and strategic coup that can't be understated. I am on record of being skeptical of the chances of success in the Federal court system, especially in the near term. On the other hand, two advocates like Olson and Boies working together and making the case for equality in the strongest terms could have political and social ramifications that far outreach the powers of the Courts.
Interesting to see Olson's involvement in this. Do you think it will create more monumental internal strife in the GOP, or is it too early to tell?
-TM
JAN 12, 2010 07:28 AM
thefreak said:
Subrosa said:
This coming from the guy who argued Bush v. Gore... on BUSH'S side. He's an old school, blue-blooded, big R, bold text Republican, and he is a total legal badass. To have him arguing for plaintiffs here is a public relations and strategic coup that can't be understated. I am on record of being skeptical of the chances of success in the Federal court system, especially in the near term. On the other hand, two advocates like Olson and Boies working together and making the case for equality in the strongest terms could have political and social ramifications that far outreach the powers of the Courts.
Interesting to see Olson's involvement in this. Do you think it will create more monumental internal strife in the GOP, or is it too early to tell?
-TM
Possibly, but probably not. Olson has the kind of bona fides that you can't turn away should the GOP need him again in the future. As for the rift between the Theocon right and the intellectual right: It exists but I think it's unlikely to splinter any more than it already has until 2012 if they nominate Palin or Huckabee. Just my opinion, though.

Cash
USA
OLD SKOOL
JAN 12, 2010 07:30 AM
The amazing (read: retarded) thing...is that I have YET to hear a lucid, reasonable argument against letting homosexual couples marry just like everyone else.
Some of my favorite arguments include:
1.) We have to protect the sanctity of marriage
Riiiiiiiiight...that 40+% divorce rate....not to mention the hugely popular shows like The Bachelor, Who Wants To Marry A Millionaire, Who Wants To Marry My Dad.....Who Wants to Marry An Inanimate Object (okay I made that one up)....those are really in the spirit of the sanctity of marriage
2.) It'll cost too much to put them all on each other's health benefits
So....civil rights are okay...as long as they don't cost a lot of money? How about the fact that I can marry a female friend of mine JUST to get her health benefits?
3.) Leviticus 20:13!!!!!!
Do you wear clothing of mixed fibers? Do you shave? Do you make sure not to touch a woman until 7 days after her menstrual cycle is over? Are you Pro-slavery?
4.) They have domestic partnership...why do they need to call it marriage?
There have been recent court cases determining that "separate but equal" policies are not...shall we say....cool? And by recent...I mean 1954!
5.) Let the voters decide!
Riiiiiiiight, because the voters would have elected to abolish slavery? Or give women the right to vote? Or pass civil rights legislation?
I don't see how the point could be made any clearer to people. It is state-sanctioned discrimination.
JAN 12, 2010 07:32 AM
Pip said:
papawheelie said:
separation of church and state!
Fuck that! Freedom of Religion. How dare the government step on my religious belief that God loves all people equally?
The Freedom of Religion/Separation of Church and State argument isn't persuasive in court (or public opinion) though. Remember, people who are against gay marriage tend to believe (or at least pretend they believe) that they're looking at this through a secular prism. This is why they have to dress up their religious or cultural objections to grody homosexuals in boogymen like "they're coming after our children" or "it will harm traditional marriage" or whatever such nonsense. To win, you have to engage them on those grounds because they'll never admit that they're taking state action for the church. Which is why this exchange was so brutal in the hearings leading up to yesterday's trial.
[O]ne of the arguments that the anti-gay-marriage side has increasingly turned to outside the courtroom is that allowing same-sex marriage would hurt heterosexual marriage. At the pretrial hearing, Judge Walker kept asking Charles Cooper, the lawyer defending Proposition 8, how exactly it did so. “I’m asking you to tell me,” he said at last, “how it would harm opposite-sex marriages.”
“All right,” Cooper said.
“All right,” Walker said. “Let’s play on the same playing field for once.”
There was a pause—it seemed like a long one to people in the courtroom, though it was probably only a few seconds. And Cooper said, “Your Honor, my answer is: I don’t know. I don’t know.”
JAN 12, 2010 07:36 AM
Also, I just realized that there is a major mistake in this headline. This case is NOT in the California Supreme Court. This is in Federal District Court. Totally different ballgame.
The CA Supes ruled in favor of retaining Prop 8 last summer.
JAN 12, 2010 07:52 AM
Noctua said:
So, the reason the YouTube channel isn't up is due to the US Supreme Court handed down an order delaying/postponing any broadcast of the trial. Source (SCOTUSblog)
It's more asinine than that, sadly.
Under the court's rules, lawyers can seek an emergency order only if they can show their clients will suffer "irreparable harm" if the justices fail to act. In this case, the defenders of Prop. 8 said their witnesses could be subjected to harassment and intimidation if they testified in favor of the ban on marriage for gay and lesbian couples.
They're worried that the public will see them for the homophobes they are. How quaint.
-TM
JAN 13, 2010 11:36 PM
thefreak said:
Noctua said:
So, the reason the YouTube channel isn't up is due to the US Supreme Court handed down an order delaying/postponing any broadcast of the trial. Source (SCOTUSblog)
It's more asinine than that, sadly.
Under the court's rules, lawyers can seek an emergency order only if they can show their clients will suffer "irreparable harm" if the justices fail to act. In this case, the defenders of Prop. 8 said their witnesses could be subjected to harassment and intimidation if they testified in favor of the ban on marriage for gay and lesbian couples.
They're worried that the public will see them for the homophobes they are. How quaint.
-TM
It's so stupid. I don't know why the Supreme Court is so against coming into the 20th century, much less the 21st. It's not like the hearings aren't publicly accessible already. This isn't dealing with something relating to national security and secret information, for crying out loud.
JAN 14, 2010 12:07 AM
Subrosa said:
The Freedom of Religion/Separation of Church and State argument isn't persuasive in court (or public opinion) though. Remember, people who are against gay marriage tend to believe (or at least pretend they believe) that they're looking at this through a secular prism. This is why they have to dress up their religious or cultural objections to grody homosexuals in boogymen like "they're coming after our children" or "it will harm traditional marriage" or whatever such nonsense. To win, you have to engage them on those grounds because they'll never admit that they're taking state action for the church. Which is why this exchange was so brutal in the hearings leading up to yesterday's trial.
[O]ne of the arguments that the anti-gay-marriage side has increasingly turned to outside the courtroom is that allowing same-sex marriage would hurt heterosexual marriage. At the pretrial hearing, Judge Walker kept asking Charles Cooper, the lawyer defending Proposition 8, how exactly it did so. “I’m asking you to tell me,” he said at last, “how it would harm opposite-sex marriages.”
“All right,” Cooper said.
“All right,” Walker said. “Let’s play on the same playing field for once.”
There was a pause—it seemed like a long one to people in the courtroom, though it was probably only a few seconds. And Cooper said, “Your Honor, my answer is: I don’t know. I don’t know.”
Oh my sweet fuck. That's beautiful.
JAN 14, 2010 05:49 AM
Subrosa said:
Pip said:
papawheelie said:
separation of church and state!
Fuck that! Freedom of Religion. How dare the government step on my religious belief that God loves all people equally?
The Freedom of Religion/Separation of Church and State argument isn't persuasive in court (or public opinion) though. Remember, people who are against gay marriage tend to believe (or at least pretend they believe) that they're looking at this through a secular prism. This is why they have to dress up their religious or cultural objections to grody homosexuals in boogymen like "they're coming after our children" or "it will harm traditional marriage" or whatever such nonsense. To win, you have to engage them on those grounds because they'll never admit that they're taking state action for the church. Which is why this exchange was so brutal in the hearings leading up to yesterday's trial.
[O]ne of the arguments that the anti-gay-marriage side has increasingly turned to outside the courtroom is that allowing same-sex marriage would hurt heterosexual marriage. At the pretrial hearing, Judge Walker kept asking Charles Cooper, the lawyer defending Proposition 8, how exactly it did so. “I’m asking you to tell me,” he said at last, “how it would harm opposite-sex marriages.”
“All right,” Cooper said.
“All right,” Walker said. “Let’s play on the same playing field for once.”
There was a pause—it seemed like a long one to people in the courtroom, though it was probably only a few seconds. And Cooper said, “Your Honor, my answer is: I don’t know. I don’t know.”
I know, it's a weak argument and a vain attempt to throw the religious argument back in their faces. But I am glad I got to read that exchange!
JAN 14, 2010 05:52 AM
Noctua said:
thefreak said:
Noctua said:
So, the reason the YouTube channel isn't up is due to the US Supreme Court handed down an order delaying/postponing any broadcast of the trial. Source (SCOTUSblog)
It's more asinine than that, sadly.
Under the court's rules, lawyers can seek an emergency order only if they can show their clients will suffer "irreparable harm" if the justices fail to act. In this case, the defenders of Prop. 8 said their witnesses could be subjected to harassment and intimidation if they testified in favor of the ban on marriage for gay and lesbian couples.
They're worried that the public will see them for the homophobes they are. How quaint.
-TM
It's so stupid. I don't know why the Supreme Court is so against coming into the 20th century, much less the 21st. It's not like the hearings aren't publicly accessible already. This isn't dealing with something relating to national security and secret information, for crying out loud.
Judge Lance Ito. 'Nuff said!
Really I don't want the Supreme Court Justices to get that much air time or become that famous. They need to have some level of anonymity. I don't want the tabloid press feasting on them. We know Justice Thomas is a pervert, I don't need the details or the attempted character assassination. Good people are already scared out of government service, we cannot, as a country, survive any further brain drain on the Supreme Court.
JAN 14, 2010 07:11 AM
Subrosa said:
Also, I just realized that there is a major mistake in this headline. This case is NOT in the California Supreme Court. This is in Federal District Court. Totally different ballgame.
The CA Supes ruled in favor of retaining Prop 8 last summer.
That's why this is better. If this case goes the way it should, ALL those anti-gay marriage laws go away.
JAN 15, 2010 08:49 PM
Sometimes it's hard to believe that they can put my day to day life literally on trial. What's so strange about two people in love that they have to legislate how much of a commitment to a relationship I'm allowed to make? How much money has been spent invalidating what happens in my home? People need bigger issues than this solved.
JAN 15, 2010 11:09 PM
Subrosa said:
Also, I just realized that there is a major mistake in this headline. This case is NOT in the California Supreme Court. This is in Federal District Court. Totally different ballgame.
The CA Supes ruled in favor of retaining Prop 8 last summer.
Thanks for correcting my error Subrosa.
I wonder what potential paths this case could take, in order to get to the Supreme Court...
JAN 16, 2010 02:09 PM
Olson lays out the conservative case for gay marriage in Newsweek, explaining why he took the case. Actually, about 80-90% of the article could've been written by any advocate of marriage equality, but there are passages where you can tell he's speaking as a conservative or trying to persuade conservatives.
Apparently he's held this view for a long time. 'Brosa - wasn't Olson's name floated for the SCOTUS vacancies that went to Roberts and Alito?
Assuming this gets to SCOTUS - if there's anyone who can tickle the libertarian streaks in Scalia or (more likely) Kennedy, it's probably Olson - which would be the deciding vote assuming Stevens, Ginsburg, Breyer and Sotomayor all vote with Olson and Boies.
JAN 16, 2010 02:28 PM
Coyotemike said:
Subrosa said:
Also, I just realized that there is a major mistake in this headline. This case is NOT in the California Supreme Court. This is in Federal District Court. Totally different ballgame.
The CA Supes ruled in favor of retaining Prop 8 last summer.
That's why this is better. If this case goes the way it should, ALL those anti-gay marriage laws go away.
Yeah, but if they lose it's also Federal precedent. This is absolutely a longer risk longer reward situation.
JAN 16, 2010 02:36 PM
Lone_Ranger said:
Subrosa said:
Also, I just realized that there is a major mistake in this headline. This case is NOT in the California Supreme Court. This is in Federal District Court. Totally different ballgame.
The CA Supes ruled in favor of retaining Prop 8 last summer.
Thanks for correcting my error Subrosa.
I wonder what potential paths this case could take, in order to get to the Supreme Court...
Most cases in Federal Court follow a pretty set path. From the district court, the case will then go to the 9th Circuit, then (if SCOTUS grants cert) the Supreme Court. There are several minor steps in between, but that's the basic route.
As a related aside, the various levels of courts in the Federal system is also the reason why the Plaintiffs (and I assume the Defense) are presenting such a broad case to begin with. They're putting everything on the record in the trial court in case somewhere down the road a Court decides a matter of law in favor of the plaintiffs (like for example that gays should be considered a "discrete and insular minority", which would entitle courts looking at laws that discriminate against gays to use the highest levels of scrutiny) that higher Court will have all the evidence necessary to make a ruling. As it is, the Trial court is basically only supposed to be deciding whether Prop 8 was motivated by animus against gays, which makes a lot of the plaintiffs testimony about the financial benefits of gay marriage sort of extraneous.












Lone_Ranger
I'm lost
September 2004
JAN 11, 2010 07:54 AM