NEWS: Democrats Blowing It On Health Care

That's not what I said at all. I'm saying it is ridiculous for a leftist to call a libertarian a utopian when their candidate ran on the rock solid platform of "hope" and "change". Left wing ideology is an attempt to create a utopia.

Is it suddenly cool to be a libertarian with no profile pic who makes arguments based on no evidence?

I totally agree with Nicole_Powers. The rest of the world stopped having this debate a century ago. We the People decided that we as a people would use part of the taxes we pay so that those of us who become ill can be looked after. Here in New Zealand, doctor's visits are subsidised, medicine is subsidised and hospital care is free because we the people regard healthcare as a basic human right.

Obama's not a lefty. He's a centrist. Just a tip.

Sadly, there are those here in my fucked up part of the world who are able to label that "communism."

But, of course, the country I'm in is more interested in solving world issues than issues within its borders.


Even Cuba has socialized health care and we have people literally dying here in this "great country." And before some idiot suggests, "Duh...why don't you leave then?" Because, if I could go to one of those countries I probably would (er...maybe not Cuba)*. Remember: We're not the only one who views everyone else outside the borders as "fucking filthy immigrants."


* Although, I'd still like to see this country "catch on."

Britain. When the NHS was introduced, poor people - for the first time ever - were able to take their kids to the doctor when they got sick, without having to fear a bill which mght be several times their monthly income.

I found out today they upped my premium by 24% overnight. My employer apparently found out about it yesterday. I have no idea how it happened.

When they told me about it and asked if I wanted to switch to something else, I just thought, "Ummm...what choice do I have, really?"

Lemme just add my personal preference for private health care comes from experience. I felt out of a tree once and broke my pelvis when I was a child and supposedly experience medical technicians failed not notice the fracture, and let me go from the hospital. About a day later they called back and said "Hey, you're pelvis is broken!" Less than stellar service from Big G.

Last year, I had to have a medical examination, and those it was some what expensive, the care I got was good, and got the attention I needed in a relatively short amount of time (between a month - two months between first noticing the problem, and having an examination by a specialist).

i have a pre-existing condition. I can't get private insurance to...well, basically save my life. I don't have enough cash on hand to pay for the procedure that is required, so once every few months i get a procedure performed that reduces the effects of the condition.

When the insurance company i was with found out about my condition, my rates sky-rocketed and i couldn't afford it anymore, they raised it to the point that it would be cheaper to pay out of pocket for the procedure.

I don't qualify for Medicaid or Medicare because i have too many of what they consider "assets" and i make too much money.

I am stuck. Plain and simple. Eventually i will have to get the condition taken care of permanently, but for now, all i can afford (not really) is to keep having a lesser procedure performed that doesn't correct the problem, it just reduces it's effects, it's a band-aid.

Good times.

I am not even sure if a "public option" would help me.

You do realize that:

1) Even if all medicine went public, the expensive good doctors you went to would still exist--they just wouldn't be as expensive.

2) That if you somehow had some financial emergency in between Medical Incident A and Medical Incident B then you would never have been to afford the expensive good doctor under the current system, but possibly would've under a public system.

and

3) The structure of your whole argument is kind of like saying: Everyone in America should eat pancakes instead of hamburgers because the first time I got a hamburger it was overcooked and the first time I got a pancake it was yummy and good.

I'm not quite sure why you think the choice is between one or the other?

The Australian system is a solid mix between both. Everyone pays a medicare levy that pays for the public health insurance system. On top of that you can also get private health insurance. Thus if you want more than the basic level of care provided to you for free by the government you can opt to. Because Insurance companies know they can't gouge people the private rates of insurance are reasonable.

There is also a difference between a government provided health care system (like the British NHS) and government provided health insurance like our Medicare.

In Britain - I believe, as it may have changed since I was there in the early 90s - every doctor works for the NHS. I have to say it was hell and i will avoid having anything to do with it ever again. I'm not sure having British bureaucrats decide on my level of care is any different to having American businessmen doing it.

In Australia you go to private doctors for most things whose costs are paid for or subsidised by Medicare. You can also chose to be a public or private patient in the state run public hospitals.The one big reform that would improve the healthcare situation in Australia is for medicare benefits (which are paid at set levels for specific operations) to be available whether you have your operation in a government or private hospital. This would force the states to improve the fairly dire state of the public hospitals.

However; this whinging round the edges as we have close to the best of both worlds.

In New Zealand they even provide free health care for your sheep. It's a socialist-bestialitist paradise

Let me guess Kiwi partner. Just say you were led astray by an Australian

Oh, how so? If your not going to pay the doctors the same, what's top stop all the Qualified doctors from going into the private practice? If you are going to pay them the same, then you'll need taxpayer money for that (or else hire less doctors, lengthing wait times), and then we'll effectively be paying the same anyways.

In that instance, I'd probably try and negotiate some kind of payment plan for services rendered. (Perhaps a "Medical Loan" industry is a business niche that might be filled).

and

I'm merely explaining how my personal experience shapes my point of view.

I'll go ahead and save you the trouble of "trying to negotiate".

Hospitals don't, very few doctors do, my dentist on the other hand does take payments.

Who said anything about forcing Doctors to cut their prices? No one I have seen has suggested price caps, which would be an idiotic socialist thing to do and end up with Soviet style medicine. Nor is anyone suggesting a government owned health system.

The idea is a not-for-profit government managed insurance scheme. The people who would get gouged are the medical insurance companies.

Ok, I assumed everyone already grasped this dirt-basic pre-school-level premise of life in the US but I guess not:

Our current health care system has driven up prices for ALL medical care, from whatever source, in the US by inserting unnecessary middlemen.

EVEN IF YOU COUNT TAXES PAID IN COUNTRIES WITH SOCIALIZED MEDICINE, we are still paying more for our medical care than every other comparable nation for the same medical outcomes.

That is: it costs you MORE to get your hip fixed than it costs a French person. Get it?

The system drives costs UP rather than DOWN because people with broken hips are in no condition to comparison shop.

If you don't believe me, go look it up. If you do believe me, then now do you understand what's going on here in this thread?

I too have a pre_existing condition. When I had insurance and was then laid off they gave me the Cobra option of maintaining my insurance for two years for the very reasonable sum of $750.00 per month. When you are laid off, with no income, how in the hell can you come up with that amount.

Then when my wife lost her job it was the same thing only Cobra now wanted $800.00 per month.

I went to the cardiologist in November of last year. He looked at my echocardiogram that was taken last May and told me that I needed a heart transplant and that if I can figure out a way to pay for it he will go ahead and put me on the transplant list. He said I should look into disability. I never wanted to do that because I like to pay my way but suddenly was faced with no other option. I was real numb when I left his office.

I went to my county Social Security office on the next day and filed for my SSI and my SSDI. They were incredibly nice. I was given SSI for the short run until my SSDI came through. I recieved a letter that I would be getting my SS Disability Insurance the same day I received my first and only SSI check. (I know most people say they automatically turn you down the first time but I did not experience that. Mine came through in less than 45 days)

Now here is the really fucked up thing. If I am on SSI I qualify for and get Medicaid. They would fix my heart (Hopefully). But now since I am on SSDI I make too much to qualify for Medicaid so I do not get that. Medicare does not kick in until I have been on SSDI for 2 years. So for a period of 2 years I have no insurance and am not allowed to look for a job with insurance because it will fuck up my disability (And in truth I am not in shape to work anyway) and am hung up in limbo.

I'm really tired of being treated like a criminal or a second class citizen because I have no medical insurance. When I went to my Cardiologist in April for my followup and another echocardiogram (Which costs $650.00) I was asked for the money up front. When I told them that I did not have it but could pay so much down and so much a month they looked like I had shit on their dinnerplates. I was told "You're gonna have to reschedule. When you have the money call us and we'll be glad to reschedule the test." I was not even seen. An appeal to the doctor did no good either.

I am not sure about puplic plans or options as opposed to private plans. I just want someone to fix my heart. I have written letters to my Congressman and to President Obama. Still waiting to hear from them. In the mean time I continue to soldier on and hope the time passes until I can qualify for Medicare and get my heart fixed. I really don't have any other option.

Sorry for the rant folks but I found myself with the need to unburden.

Insurers vary by state and are selective about the types of coverage they offer. There are several states, mine included, where carriers have abandoned certain types of coverage. There are only two carriers in my state offering coverage for self-employed or company of 1. Also note the point I make later about congressional investigation into antitrust behavior by insurance companies.

I know you are smart enough to understand that health insurance underwriters chase profits - not customers.

Phrases like "I think" are mostly useless when it comes to defining situations where research provides insight. Yours is standard blather trotted out by the usually uninformed libertarian.

Healthcare costs in the US are approaching 18% of GDP and the rate of increase has little to do with "tort tax." If pharma companies chase profits with products that made it through the FDA on false premise and people die or become injured, that pharma company deserves whatever a jury awards.

Principally academics and physicians agree that the biggest problems with the healthcare system today are

A.) Lack of coverage for somewhere between 15 and 25% of the nation

B.) An adjustment in the way services are priced and paid. In short, we underpay for basic care services and overpay for special services. The health insurance industry is largely responsible for driving this trend by their underwriting and actuarial models

C.) Technology and processes have encouraged doctors to spend less time with patients; tests are ordered in place of increased interaction with the patient - not as a methodology for mitigating lawsuits

D) Congress must modify the McCarran-Ferguson Act, which enabled insurers to raise prices and reduce coverage while avoiding federal antitrust laws
(Sources: James Rohack (AMA), Dartmouth studies, Congressional testimony given during review of the proposed Medical Malpractice Insurance Antitrust Act

How about we try to address the problem instead of whining about how hard it might be or how expensive it could become.

50 million US citizens are uninsured, yet we spend more on healthcare than other industrialized nations that provide health insurance to all of their citizens.

1.) Healthcare in the US will almost certainly approach 20% of the GDP by 2020.

2.) The great socialistic devil France spends just 9.5% of its GDP on healthcare for every citizen of that nation

3.) Canada spends just 9.7% of its GDP on healthcare

4.) Germany and Switzerland top the list with healthcare costs running about 11% of GDP

As for the risk of socialized medicine, that horse left the barn years ago - just as soon as insurance companies began forcing the use of standard procedural coding and standard pricing for everyone - there was no turning back.

Now, before you launch into the next predictable false statement about quality, I will tell you that as a US citizen, I spend 50% of my life in the US and 50% in the UK. The quality of care I receive in the UK is every bit as good as what I receive in the US AND I can usually see a doctor on the same day I call AND that doctor will likely spend 2 - 3X as much time with as a US doctor.

Our son was born in the UK and the care he and my wife received was unmatched by any experience we had with our other three children born in the US.

In summary, the problem is reform, the first step to reform is to set the proper priorities, and the first priority is to get the citizens of this country protected under a health insurance program. Once established, we can work on runaway premiums for doctors and patients, inefficient hospitals and administration, proper revenue cycle management by docs and hospitals, the proper use of technology, etc.