Current Events

TOPICS:

Previous

PAGE: 

1 ... 

35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39

 ... 487

Next

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2

Next

Stiles

Stiles

Oakland, CA
November 2002

JUN 29, 2009 10:52 AM

source


NEW YORK (June 29) -- Historic swindler Bernard Madoff was sentenced to 150 years in prison Monday for a fraud so extensive that the judge said he needed to send a symbolic message to potential imitators and to victims who demanded harsh punishment.
Scattered applause and whoops broke out in the crowded Manhattan courtroom after U.S. District Judge Denny Chin issued the maximum sentence to the 71-year-old defendant, who said he lives "in a tormented state now, knowing all the pain and suffering I've created."



unfiltrator

unfiltrator

San Francisco, CA
April 2004

JUN 29, 2009 11:10 AM

Great title

wildswan

wildswan

I'm lost
June 2006

JUN 29, 2009 11:13 AM

You know, as much as I despise what the man has done--I had a minibar sentence was decrying his actions for months--I think it's wasteful, shortsighted and revengeful to warehouse him, or any other non-violent offenders. Madoff should be living in a halfway house, on his own dime, and doing public service and activities that go toward paying his victims back. In jail, he's completely useless, and he costs us taxpayers even more. He's quite a talented guy;he should be put to good use serving the public.

Why don't we have less cavemanish ways to deal with nonviolent offenders?

wildswan

wildswan

I'm lost
June 2006

JUN 29, 2009 11:13 AM

unfiltrator said:
Great title



Yep.

siamkittie

siamkittie

New York, NY
March 2006

JUN 29, 2009 11:15 AM

wildswan said:

unfiltrator said:
Great title



Yep.



+1

Gringo

Gringo

Spokane, WA
May 2006

JUN 29, 2009 11:22 AM

wildswan said:
Why don't we have less cavemanish ways to deal with nonviolent offenders?


I would totally agree with you had this case not included victims.

In this case, it's because of the less cavemanish punishments that sick fucks like him (including those at Enron) do what they do to the public.

I would want similar punishments for those who scam the elderly out of retirement money for "sure bet investments" and other scams.

wildswan

wildswan

I'm lost
June 2006

JUN 29, 2009 11:29 AM

Gringo said:

wildswan said:
Why don't we have less cavemanish ways to deal with nonviolent offenders?


I would totally agree with you had this case not included victims.

In this case, it's because of the less cavemanish punishments that sick fucks like him (including those at Enron) do what they do to the public.

I would want similar punishments for those who scam the elderly out of retirement money for "sure bet investments" and other scams.



Are there really any truly victimless crimes? I don't think so. But, more to the point, aren't there punitive measures that are actually useful to victims? I think so, like I said in my earlier post.

thefreak

thefreak

NEWSWIRE

Gardner, MA

JUN 29, 2009 11:37 AM

Gringo

Gringo

Spokane, WA
May 2006

JUN 29, 2009 11:41 AM

Wildswan, I think there are crimes that are somewhat victimless: Late paying taxes, most drug-related crimes (usage/buying/selling), and I'm sure there are more. I just can't think of any on the spot right now.

But back to your original suggestion of how to handle Madoff, I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Are you suggesting that if you swindle millions of dollars from the public, that the only consequence for getting caught is giving the money back and having to stay at a halfway house? Just because he's smart/intelligent?

I understand your good intent of having him serve the public...but hasn't he demonstrated that he's not exactly trustworthy that way? Unless, of course, you are suggesting he pick up trash off the streets n' stuff.

Subrosa

Subrosa

San Francisco, CA
July 2004

JUN 29, 2009 11:43 AM

wildswan said:
You know, as much as I despise what the man has done--I had a minibar sentence was decrying his actions for months--I think it's wasteful, shortsighted and revengeful to warehouse him, or any other non-violent offenders. Madoff should be living in a halfway house, on his own dime, and doing public service and activities that go toward paying his victims back. In jail, he's completely useless, and he costs us taxpayers even more. He's quite a talented guy;he should be put to good use serving the public.

Why don't we have less cavemanish ways to deal with nonviolent offenders?



It's a deterrence issue, primarily. The idea (and I don't know that empirical research exists to confirm or rebut this idea, I'm just saying) is that there is a class of people out there who may commit a white collar crime if they think they're going to end up in a halfway house but may not if they think they'll end up in a FPMITA prison amongst the general populace of murderers and thugs. Again, I don't know the research, but viscerally there's probably something to that idea.

Now, that doesn't negate the policy implications of having a prison-industrial complex that herds people in like cattle for violent and non-violent crimes alike, but I think it's a reasonable counter-point.

Adroitbeing

Adroitbeing

I'm lost
September 2003

JUN 29, 2009 11:43 AM

thefreak said:
Just sayin. wink

-TM



Yes, but this title was soooo much better

Adroitbeing

Adroitbeing

I'm lost
September 2003

JUN 29, 2009 11:50 AM

wildswan said:
You know, as much as I despise what the man has done--I had a minibar sentence was decrying his actions for months--I think it's wasteful, shortsighted and revengeful to warehouse him, or any other non-violent offenders. Madoff should be living in a halfway house, on his own dime, and doing public service and activities that go toward paying his victims back. In jail, he's completely useless, and he costs us taxpayers even more. He's quite a talented guy;he should be put to good use serving the public.

Why don't we have less cavemanish ways to deal with nonviolent offenders?



i think you make an excellent point. The "sentence" is a form of penance or reparation as much as it is "punishment." It's unclear why every punishment should be born by taxpayers (I can confirm that I have not become one of those libertarians) when in fact offenders may have something to contribute. I am in favor of tapping intellectual and physical capital versus segregating it/them into facilities where they waste away.

Katieesq

Katieesq

USA
June 2008

JUN 29, 2009 11:52 AM

wildswan said:
You know, as much as I despise what the man has done--I had a minibar sentence was decrying his actions for months--I think it's wasteful, shortsighted and revengeful to warehouse him, or any other non-violent offenders. Madoff should be living in a halfway house, on his own dime, and doing public service and activities that go toward paying his victims back. In jail, he's completely useless, and he costs us taxpayers even more. He's quite a talented guy;he should be put to good use serving the public.

Why don't we have less cavemanish ways to deal with nonviolent offenders?



Hmmm. You raise a good point, one that was notably used by Madoff's defense team (which, of course, is not meant to imply that you are somehow defending Bernie Madoff). However, Madoff has become a symbol for the cause of the economic recession, and this is the main reason why his prison sentence is so lengthy. Beyond the fact that Madoff's fraud went on for decades and evaporated so many people's life savings, his imprisonment is one of many commonly occuring populists efforts to disrupt and challenge the common practice of economic exploitation of middle and lower classes. We don't often get legal recourse against these kinds of criminals, so when we do, we go for blood.

It's also true that the victim's unequivocally desired the long sentence. I'm unsure as to how much their opinions should be taken into consideration. The anger that comes from being victimized does not serve justice well.

thefreak

thefreak

NEWSWIRE

Gardner, MA

JUN 29, 2009 11:54 AM

Adroitbeing said:


Yes, but this title was soooo much better


I still stand by my subtitle. tongue

Back on topic...Hey, fuck him.

-TM

slayn001

slayn001

United Kingdom
February 2005

JUN 29, 2009 12:08 PM

Katieesq said:

Hmmm. You raise a good point, one that was notably used by Madoff's defense team (which, of course, is not meant to imply that you are somehow defending Bernie Madoff). However, Madoff has become a symbol for the cause of the economic recession, and this is the main reason why his prison sentence is so lengthy. Beyond the fact that Madoff's fraud went on for decades and evaporated so many people's life savings, his imprisonment is one of many commonly occuring populists efforts to disrupt and challenge the common practice of economic exploitation of middle and lower classes. We don't often get legal recourse against these kinds of criminals, so when we do, we go for blood.

.



But is this really going for blood ? he is going to put up in a federal prison for the very short remainder of his life. Certainly its not paradise, and losing your freedom can be very traumatizing, but its not like he is going to be tortured or harmed in any sort of official capacity. He is just going to spend his days sleeping, eating, making license plates or doing laundry etc., eating, whatever prisoners do in the afternoon, eating, then sleeping.

Personally if it was up to me, i would set him to work for habitat for humanity or something similar so that he could make some sort of contribution to society at large. I agree with wildswan, lets not simply lock him away.

Gringo

Gringo

Spokane, WA
May 2006

JUN 29, 2009 12:24 PM

So, to sum this up:

Physical abuse/damage against innocent victimes = rot in prison.

Severe emotional or severe financial abuse against victims = Hey, go easy on them. It's not like they ruined anyone's lives or anything....oops killed anyone. Maybe a halfway house or a little community service?

I'm pretty sure the latter of the two scenarios will see a drastic drop in those kinds of crimes with that plan.

wildswan

wildswan

I'm lost
June 2006

JUN 29, 2009 12:32 PM

Gringo said:
Wildswan, I think there are crimes that are somewhat victimless: Late paying taxes, most drug-related crimes (usage/buying/selling), and I'm sure there are more. I just can't think of any on the spot right now.

But back to your original suggestion of how to handle Madoff, I want to make sure I understand you correctly. Are you suggesting that if you swindle millions of dollars from the public, that the only consequence for getting caught is giving the money back and having to stay at a halfway house? Just because he's smart/intelligent?

I understand your good intent of having him serve the public...but hasn't he demonstrated that he's not exactly trustworthy that way? Unless, of course, you are suggesting he pick up trash off the streets n' stuff.




I'm not advocating a soft, cushy life for Mr. Made-off-with-people's-life savings-and-even-bilked-charities-including-Elie Wiesel's. I'm saying that traditional incarceration isn't going to ameliorate the financial outlooks of his victims. If I were a victim of Madoff, I'd want him to be doing something to mitigate the damage done to my fiscal health.







Subrosa said:

wildswan said:
You know, as much as I despise what the man has done--I had a minibar sentence was decrying his actions for months--I think it's wasteful, shortsighted and revengeful to warehouse him, or any other non-violent offenders. Madoff should be living in a halfway house, on his own dime, and doing public service and activities that go toward paying his victims back. In jail, he's completely useless, and he costs us taxpayers even more. He's quite a talented guy;he should be put to good use serving the public.

Why don't we have less cavemanish ways to deal with nonviolent offenders?



It's a deterrence issue, primarily. The idea (and I don't know that empirical research exists to confirm or rebut this idea, I'm just saying) is that there is a class of people out there who may commit a white collar crime if they think they're going to end up in a halfway house but may not if they think they'll end up in a FPMITA prison amongst the general populace of murderers and thugs. Again, I don't know the research, but viscerally there's probably something to that idea.

Now, that doesn't negate the policy implications of having a prison-industrial complex that herds people in like cattle for violent and non-violent crimes alike, but I think it's a reasonable counter-point.




If I were a corporate criminal, I'd be greatly deterred by the prospect of spending the remainder of my life in alternative incarceration, exchanging my previous cushy life for working the remainder of my days repaying my victims in a pauper's lifestye.

I mean, couldn't the prosecutors have come up with some creative deals? As I understand it, Madoff is sitting on the valuable information about where those assets are. He has no incentive, now, to tell where the bulk of those assets are.


Also, I don't know how much the 'smartest guys in the room' personalities are prone to what the average person would be deterred by. I just think there are so many ways to punish him and coerce him into ways of trying to make his victims whole again--as whole as possible.


*This is no expression of sympathy for the man.

Gringo

Gringo

Spokane, WA
May 2006

JUN 29, 2009 12:38 PM

Ugh, I am reading stories/reports of some of the victims.

It appears that due to our overly-complicated laws, there are loopholes which do not protect those who aren't "direct investors." Meaning if you are like this one 80 yr old retired engineer who put their complete life savings in the hands of a consultant - you are out fucked and have to work at Safeway as a butcher making less than $9 an hour to pay your bills.

Maybe we should spend more time closing loopholes rather than finding less severe punishments for ass maggots who fuck the public over.

wildswan

wildswan

I'm lost
June 2006

JUN 29, 2009 12:40 PM

Katieesq said:

wildswan said:
You know, as much as I despise what the man has done--I had a minibar sentence was decrying his actions for months--I think it's wasteful, shortsighted and revengeful to warehouse him, or any other non-violent offenders. Madoff should be living in a halfway house, on his own dime, and doing public service and activities that go toward paying his victims back. In jail, he's completely useless, and he costs us taxpayers even more. He's quite a talented guy;he should be put to good use serving the public.

Why don't we have less cavemanish ways to deal with nonviolent offenders?



Hmmm. You raise a good point, one that was notably used by Madoff's defense team (which, of course, is not meant to imply that you are somehow defending Bernie Madoff). However, Madoff has become a symbol for the cause of the economic recession, and this is the main reason why his prison sentence is so lengthy. Beyond the fact that Madoff's fraud went on for decades and evaporated so many people's life savings, his imprisonment is one of many commonly occuring populists efforts to disrupt and challenge the common practice of economic exploitation of middle and lower classes. We don't often get legal recourse against these kinds of criminals, so when we do, we go for blood.

It's also true that the victim's unequivocally desired the long sentence. I'm unsure as to how much their opinions should be taken into consideration. The anger that comes from being victimized does not serve justice well.




The underlined is a vital point: when the anger--an emotion that can fog decision making--is drained off, those people will still be in need of pragmatic reparations, and not some guy sitting in traditional punishment.

I can't help but to think it's not just a pipe dream to think that this man could recover these people losses, pay for his own punishment, and pay the public at large back for what it has cost us to try him.

Katieesq

Katieesq

USA
June 2008

JUN 29, 2009 12:44 PM

^^^ Couldn't he do this in a traditional incarceration setting?

wildswan

wildswan

I'm lost
June 2006

JUN 29, 2009 12:45 PM

Gringo said:
Ugh, I am reading stories/reports of some of the victims.

It appears that due to our overly-complicated laws, there are loopholes which do not protect those who aren't "direct investors." Meaning if you are like this one 80 yr old retired engineer who put their complete life savings in the hands of a consultant - you are out fucked and have to work at Safeway as a butcher making less than $9 an hour to pay your bills.

Maybe we should spend more time closing loopholes rather than finding less severe punishments for ass maggots who fuck the public over.



As I've tried to make very clear: it's not about making the punishment less severe; it's about finding creative, more constructive ways of paying society back. I think the blood lust is a vain attempt and purging society's anger, and that don't pay bills.

wildswan

wildswan

I'm lost
June 2006

JUN 29, 2009 12:51 PM

Katieesq said:
^^^ Couldn't he do this in a traditional incarceration setting?



Why would he? Were is the incentive?

We make deals with freaking serial killers--deals that render the practical punishment the same as someone who has committed a much lesser crime, just so that the guy will say where he dumped victim's bodies. Sometimes that's the best that can be done because the victim's family need to know that important information, and that's the only way to get it.

Katieesq

Katieesq

USA
June 2008

JUN 29, 2009 01:07 PM

wildswan said:

Katieesq said:
^^^ Couldn't he do this in a traditional incarceration setting?



Why would he? Were is the incentive?

We make deals with freaking serial killers--deals that render the practical punishment the same as someone who has committed a much lesser crime, just so that the guy will say where he dumped victim's bodies. Sometimes that's the best that can be done because the victim's family need to know that important information, and that's the only way to get it.



Atonement? I'm serious about that answer.

I dunno, wildswan. At best, Madoff has about 20 years of life left in him. It seems unlikely he could earn back the money that he squandered over so much time. Also, if a house arrest arrangement was made for him, how would we measure his ability to remain on house arrest? By how much money he earns off of his investments? If he didn't earn enough, would we put him in jail?

It's up to his attorneys to propose this sort of scenario, and they did no such thing. Granted, I don't know if such a thing is ever done (except in that movie Catch Me if you Can), but it still strikes me as the responsibility of the defense.

Towelly

Towelly

Philadelphia, PA
January 2007

JUN 29, 2009 05:45 PM

wildswan said:

Katieesq said:
^^^ Couldn't he do this in a traditional incarceration setting?



Why would he? Were is the incentive?

We make deals with freaking serial killers--deals that render the practical punishment the same as someone who has committed a much lesser crime, just so that the guy will say where he dumped victim's bodies. Sometimes that's the best that can be done because the victim's family need to know that important information, and that's the only way to get it.



I think you've got your heart in the right place, but are still ultimately wrong, for two reasons. First, the practical reason: your desire for him to earn back money is undercut by the fact that the reason he's in jail is because he was never very good at earning money in the first place. His talent consisted in convincing people he could, rather than actually fulfilling on said pledge. While it's admittedly possible to be a gifted con artist and a brilliant hedge fund manager, one doesn't usually rely on the former for income if you can rely on the latter.

The second, more theoretical reason is that what you're suggesting, when stripped away of the particulars, is that we tailor the punishment to the skills of the punished. There is a certain logic to this, I'll admit. But at the same time, it results in dramatically uneven punishment, as more skilled workers get what amounts to work release, with what I assume is the condition that they do the job they are prescribed well or they get tossed in a jail cell, while those with no real skills simply skip a step and move to the cell block. Insofar as we don't believe that some people are more valuable than others by law, we shouldn't, therefore, incorporate a legal standard of punishment which dispenses differing standards of justice.

Cassiel

Cassiel

Aurora, CO
September 2004

JUN 29, 2009 07:09 PM

Can someone please explain why the courts dole out these improbably long sentences? The man's not going to live that long, and it just seems contrary to common sense to give out a sentence longer than the average human lifespan.

Also, is there any difference between a life sentence and a 150 sentence in terms of the law?

Previous

PAGE: 

1 | 2

Next