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APR 15, 2009 10:29 AM
Standardized testing really only works for math, IMO.
I do agree that teachers should be paid much more than what they get right now.
APR 15, 2009 10:34 AM
Otoki said:
Standardized testing really only works for math, IMO.
I do agree that teachers should be paid much more than what they get right now.
I forgot to add that in addition to paying teachers enough, give the teachers a budget so they can get the classroom equipment they need to teach. No teacher should have to pay for their own chalk.
APR 15, 2009 11:13 AM
Good article Coyotemike, there are no standardized kids. While standards are certainly something to strive for, it is not reasonable to expect everyone to exhibit the same ability in reaching them. Education is a holistic process, an environment that helps foster interest in learning while meeting the different needs of students is just as important as the end result. By mandating a national program of success, I'm afraid that schools' curriculum will become too narrowly focused towards meeting these standards and will leave other disciplines outside the realm of reading, writing and mathematics behind. True, you can't reach the next step (say in history or science) without mastering the basics, however, such skills are indeed ancillary to having a well rounded education and not everyone learns in a linear fashion.
APR 15, 2009 11:59 AM
Standardized testing currently doesn't work, but there needs to be some sort of standard way of measuring that the minimum skills required post secondary school have been met. While we can't rely on Scantron tests for every student because of learning disabilities, etc., we need to find something.
APR 15, 2009 12:30 PM
FellOnEarth said:
Good article Coyotemike, there are no standardized kids. While standards are certainly something to strive for, it is not reasonable to expect everyone to exhibit the same ability in reaching them. Education is a holistic process, an environment that helps foster interest in learning while meeting the different needs of students is just as important as the end result. By mandating a national program of success, I'm afraid that schools' curriculum will become too narrowly focused towards meeting these standards and will leave other disciplines outside the realm of reading, writing and mathematics behind. True, you can't reach the next step (say in history or science) without mastering the basics, however, such skills are indeed ancillary to having a well rounded education and not everyone learns in a linear fashion.
Well, that depends on what graduating means.
If graduating means "he was a good student who tried hard", then yes.
If graduating means "he knows x, y, and z", or more accurately, that "he CAN DO x, y, and z", then standardized tests are a decent way of proving that.
By mandating a national program of success, I'm afraid that schools' curriculum will become too narrowly focused towards meeting these standards and will leave other disciplines outside the realm of reading, writing and mathematics behind.
What else (besides maybe history or economics) should the schools be teaching?
APR 15, 2009 12:41 PM
DJForce said:
FellOnEarth said:
Good article Coyotemike, there are no standardized kids. While standards are certainly something to strive for, it is not reasonable to expect everyone to exhibit the same ability in reaching them. Education is a holistic process, an environment that helps foster interest in learning while meeting the different needs of students is just as important as the end result. By mandating a national program of success, I'm afraid that schools' curriculum will become too narrowly focused towards meeting these standards and will leave other disciplines outside the realm of reading, writing and mathematics behind. True, you can't reach the next step (say in history or science) without mastering the basics, however, such skills are indeed ancillary to having a well rounded education and not everyone learns in a linear fashion.
Well, that depends on what graduating means.
If graduating means "he was a good student who tried hard", then yes.
If graduating means "he knows x, y, and z", or more accurately, that "he CAN DO x, y, and z", then standardized tests are a decent way of proving that.
By mandating a national program of success, I'm afraid that schools' curriculum will become too narrowly focused towards meeting these standards and will leave other disciplines outside the realm of reading, writing and mathematics behind.
What else (besides maybe history or economics) should the schools be teaching?
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APR 15, 2009 12:48 PM
No, seriously, what should they learn besides math, science, and language?
And how would you certify that a student has mastered those disciplines?
APR 15, 2009 12:52 PM
mydogfarted said:
Standardized testing currently doesn't work, but there needs to be some sort of standard way of measuring that the minimum skills required post secondary school have been met. While we can't rely on Scantron tests for every student because of learning disabilities, etc., we need to find something.
I guess we get confused on terms. You're absolutly right. There do need to be standards, bare minimums of subject skills. Maybe what would work better would be to divide high schools like they divide colleges: students who are better at or more interested in this subject recieve more in-depth instruction on that, while recieving a more basic education in other subjects. Divide it up into broad topics that require similar base skills and spend more time on them. You could get away with 4 basic categories:
Math/Science (Bio, Chem, Physics, Trig, Calculus)
Social Science (History, Debate, Politics, Bio, etc)
Fine Arts (English, Art, Geometry, History, Music, Metal/Woodshop, School Paper)
Practical (English, Geometry, Metal/Woodshop, Cooking, Autoshop, Accounting, etc)
It might become more cumbersome, particularly as it would take more teachers, but it would take things to a student-by-student basis and each would get the skills they need to move on to the next, more narrowed, area of study.
The Scantron tests mean nothing. If I remember correctly from taking those, I'm supposed to be a chemist.
APR 15, 2009 12:58 PM
There used to be such a thing as vocational schools that focused on the "Practical" skills. My highschool had a College Prep path for those who wanted to attend college, and a general diploma for the more blue-collared group.
APR 15, 2009 12:59 PM
DJForce said:
No, seriously, what should they learn besides math, science, and language?
And how would you certify that a student has mastered those disciplines?
how about history, government, and economics? i specify those three since they are required for high school students in this state to graduate. if i recall my "mastery" was certified when qualified educators tested me over the material they taught.
edit: doing the dishes while replying means the person you're replying to gets to edit their thread before you post.
APR 15, 2009 01:02 PM
DJForce said:
There used to be such a thing as vocational schools that focused on the "Practical" skills. My highschool had a College Prep path for those who wanted to attend college, and a general diploma for the more blue-collared group.
Vocational schools are a form of college, not high school.
APR 15, 2009 01:05 PM
Coyotemike said:
DJForce said:
There used to be such a thing as vocational schools that focused on the "Practical" skills. My highschool had a College Prep path for those who wanted to attend college, and a general diploma for the more blue-collared group.
Vocational schools are a form of college, not high school.
...not to mention that practically every country that still "tracks" students when they're only 13 years old (or younger) faces lots of issues with classism. I think we have enough issue with classism in America without turning ourselves into a mini-Brave New World. We've already got the blind consumerism part down pat, now we just need to assort ourselves into Alphas through Epsilons.
APR 15, 2009 01:07 PM
Toku666 said:
Coyotemike said:
DJForce said:
There used to be such a thing as vocational schools that focused on the "Practical" skills. My highschool had a College Prep path for those who wanted to attend college, and a general diploma for the more blue-collared group.
Vocational schools are a form of college, not high school.
...not to mention that practically every country that still "tracks" students when they're only 13 years old (or younger) faces lots of issues with classism. I think we have enough issue with classism in America without turning ourselves into a mini-Brave New World. We've already got the blind consumerism part down pat, now we just need to assort ourselves into Alphas through Epsilons.
I don't know if you saw what I wrote above about setting up individual programs for students, but I absolutly do not mean that to be a form of tracking. It would be a volunteer program for students who want to get a head start on what they want, not what a multiple choice test tells them they can do.
APR 15, 2009 01:09 PM
snidebot said:
DJForce said:
No, seriously, what should they learn besides math, science, and language?
And how would you certify that a student has mastered those disciplines?
how about history, government, and economics? i specify those three since they are required for high school students in this state to graduate. if i recall my "mastery" was certified when qualified educators tested me over the material they taught.
edit: doing the dishes while replying means the person you're replying to gets to edit their thread before you post.
These are all excelent disciplines to be sure, and should be a part of any education. However, we didn't get to the moon with history or economics. And few jobs test your knowlege of government or history. We should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. One of my instructors is from Tiawan, and there they teach transistor theory in high school! Here, it's junior/senior college level!
APR 15, 2009 01:10 PM
Coyotemike said:
DJForce said:
There used to be such a thing as vocational schools that focused on the "Practical" skills. My highschool had a College Prep path for those who wanted to attend college, and a general diploma for the more blue-collared group.
Vocational schools are a form of college, not high school.
That's funny, my dad attented a vocational highschool ...
APR 15, 2009 01:13 PM
DJForce said:
Coyotemike said:
DJForce said:
There used to be such a thing as vocational schools that focused on the "Practical" skills. My highschool had a College Prep path for those who wanted to attend college, and a general diploma for the more blue-collared group.
Vocational schools are a form of college, not high school.
That's funny, my dad attented a vocational highschool ...
Did he teach you to spell?
The only vocational schools I've ever heard of have been post-high school. There may be others. I don't claim to have all knowledge.
APR 15, 2009 01:14 PM
DJForce said:
snidebot said:
DJForce said:
No, seriously, what should they learn besides math, science, and language?
And how would you certify that a student has mastered those disciplines?
how about history, government, and economics? i specify those three since they are required for high school students in this state to graduate. if i recall my "mastery" was certified when qualified educators tested me over the material they taught.
edit: doing the dishes while replying means the person you're replying to gets to edit their thread before you post.
These are all excelent disciplines to be sure, and should be a part of any education. However, we didn't get to the moon with history or economics. And few jobs test your knowlege of government or history. We should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. One of my instructors is from Tiawan, and there they teach transistor theory in high school! Here, it's junior/senior college level!
You want someone to compete in a global economy without any understanding of history or politics?
APR 15, 2009 01:16 PM
DJForce said:
However, we didn't get to the moon with history or economics.
Bullshit. Out and out bullshit. It is only an ignorance of history that would lead one to say "we didn't get to the moon with history or economics."
The moon race was a component of the Cold War. The Cold War was largely (some would argue entirely) an economics matter. And it certainly was a historical matter. It wasn't some random group of guys who said "Hey! Let's use math, science, and language--and ONLY those disciplines--and fly a rocket to the MOON!"
Although global competitiveness is an issue, you don't magically fix that by restricting education. The biggest reason that many other countries outpace us educationally is that their kids go to school year-round. There are lots of historical, social, and economic factors at work here that you're not paying any attention to. Your point can be summed up in "other countries produce 18-year-olds that have an ITT-level education but don't know any history, art, or economics. We should totally be like that in the US!"
I typically only say this ironically, but "get informed."
APR 15, 2009 01:20 PM
DJForce said:
By mandating a national program of success, I'm afraid that schools' curriculum will become too narrowly focused towards meeting these standards and will leave other disciplines outside the realm of reading, writing and mathematics behind.
What else (besides maybe history or economics) should the schools be teaching?
...
We should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. One of my instructors is from Tiawan, and there they teach transistor theory in high school! Here, it's junior/senior college level!
you're shifting goalposts. transistor theory would certainly be left out of any school that focused on standardized testing.
you're right. we should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. the current method of standardized testing does not encourage curricula which prepare students to compete in a global economy.
APR 15, 2009 01:24 PM
motorfirebox said:
DJForce said:
By mandating a national program of success, I'm afraid that schools' curriculum will become too narrowly focused towards meeting these standards and will leave other disciplines outside the realm of reading, writing and mathematics behind.
What else (besides maybe history or economics) should the schools be teaching?
...
We should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. One of my instructors is from Tiawan, and there they teach transistor theory in high school! Here, it's junior/senior college level!
you're shifting goalposts. transistor theory would certainly be left out of any school that focused on standardized testing.
you're right. we should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. the current method of standardized testing does not encourage curricula which prepare students to compete in a global economy.
You forgot to use bolds ![]()
APR 15, 2009 01:30 PM
Toku666 said:
DJForce said:
However, we didn't get to the moon with history or economics.
Bullshit. Out and out bullshit. It is only an ignorance of history that would lead one to say "we didn't get to the moon with history or economics."
The moon race was a component of the Cold War. The Cold War was largely (some would argue entirely) an economics matter. And it certainly was a historical matter. It wasn't some random group of guys who said "Hey! Let's use math, science, and language--and ONLY those disciplines--and fly a rocket to the MOON!"
Although global competitiveness is an issue, you don't magically fix that by restricting education. The biggest reason that many other countries outpace us educationally is that their kids go to school year-round. There are lots of historical, social, and economic factors at work here that you're not paying any attention to. Your point can be summed up in "other countries produce 18-year-olds that have an ITT-level education but don't know any history, art, or economics. We should totally be like that in the US!"
I typically only say this ironically, but "get informed."
Yes, the economic and historical side of the cold war was significant.
However, I don't think the engineers at NASA gave a rat's behind about an potential engineers mastery of history. You want a job? The employer only cares about what you can DO, not what you know about esoteric subjects like art or government.
You want proof? I know a guy with a liberal arts degree and an art major. He runs a bar.
APR 15, 2009 01:33 PM
motorfirebox said:
DJForce said:
By mandating a national program of success, I'm afraid that schools' curriculum will become too narrowly focused towards meeting these standards and will leave other disciplines outside the realm of reading, writing and mathematics behind.
What else (besides maybe history or economics) should the schools be teaching?
...
We should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. One of my instructors is from Tiawan, and there they teach transistor theory in high school! Here, it's junior/senior college level!
you're shifting goalposts. transistor theory would certainly be left out of any school that focused on standardized testing.
you're right. we should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. the current method of standardized testing does not encourage curricula which prepare students to compete in a global economy.
The point I was trying to make is that other nations educate their students much better then we do. I agree, the current standardized tests may be poor, but they are better than none.
APR 15, 2009 01:33 PM
DJForce said:
Toku666 said:
DJForce said:
However, we didn't get to the moon with history or economics.
Bullshit. Out and out bullshit. It is only an ignorance of history that would lead one to say "we didn't get to the moon with history or economics."
The moon race was a component of the Cold War. The Cold War was largely (some would argue entirely) an economics matter. And it certainly was a historical matter. It wasn't some random group of guys who said "Hey! Let's use math, science, and language--and ONLY those disciplines--and fly a rocket to the MOON!"
Although global competitiveness is an issue, you don't magically fix that by restricting education. The biggest reason that many other countries outpace us educationally is that their kids go to school year-round. There are lots of historical, social, and economic factors at work here that you're not paying any attention to. Your point can be summed up in "other countries produce 18-year-olds that have an ITT-level education but don't know any history, art, or economics. We should totally be like that in the US!"
I typically only say this ironically, but "get informed."
Yes, the economic and historical side of the cold war was significant.
However, I don't think the engineers at NASA gave a rat's behind about an potential engineers mastery of history. You want a job? The employer only cares about what you can DO, not what you know about esoteric subjects like art or government.
You want proof? I know a guy with a liberal arts degree and an art major. He runs a bar.
So, because you don't know the connections, they don't exist?
APR 15, 2009 01:35 PM
DJForce said:
motorfirebox said:
DJForce said:
By mandating a national program of success, I'm afraid that schools' curriculum will become too narrowly focused towards meeting these standards and will leave other disciplines outside the realm of reading, writing and mathematics behind.
What else (besides maybe history or economics) should the schools be teaching?
...
We should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. One of my instructors is from Tiawan, and there they teach transistor theory in high school! Here, it's junior/senior college level!
you're shifting goalposts. transistor theory would certainly be left out of any school that focused on standardized testing.
you're right. we should not grauate students that are unable to compete in a global economy. the current method of standardized testing does not encourage curricula which prepare students to compete in a global economy.
The point I was trying to make is that other nations educate their students much better then we do. I agree, the current standardized tests may be poor, but they are better than none.
Have you looked at HOW those other nations are educating their students? Go look at the Belgian education system. Their high school students kick our college students' asses in nearly every category. Go see how they do it. Go see if they have their students doing multiple choice tests or if they have a different method.
Don't worry. We'll wait for you to get back.








Coyotemike
USA
May 2006
APR 15, 2009 09:37 AM