TOPICS:
DEC 22, 2003 03:05 PM
Casualties in war. Shocking.
Who would publicizing casualties serve? As long as it isn't Bush, I suppose you dont care.
DEC 22, 2003 03:38 PM
Its called news. How many total hours do you think were spent discussing Sadam Hussein's fucking beard last week? This war has a cost, and we're sweeping it under the rug, which does no service to either the American people or the ones making the sacrifice.
DEC 22, 2003 03:55 PM
stockula said:
Casualties in war. Shocking.
Who would publicizing casualties serve? As long as it isn't Bush, I suppose you dont care.
people like you, me, your neighbors...those stories and images help put a face to the casualty list...the sad truth is that those boys and girls are going to have to put up with the substandard medical care, of the va...and with the economy in the crapper like it is, employment opportunities will be VERY limited...i have seen the enemy and the enemy is us.
DEC 22, 2003 04:45 PM
esbee said:
stockula said:
Casualties in war. Shocking.
Who would publicizing casualties serve? As long as it isn't Bush, I suppose you dont care.
i have seen the enemy and the enemy is us.
Not, apparently, the a-holes shooting RPG's or planting mines on roads.
DEC 22, 2003 04:51 PM
stockula said:
esbee said:
stockula said:
Casualties in war. Shocking.
Who would publicizing casualties serve? As long as it isn't Bush, I suppose you dont care.
i have seen the enemy and the enemy is us.
Not, apparently, the a-holes shooting RPG's or planting mines on roads.
was over there the first go around...the whole situation is an exercise in futility...God help us, God forgive us for we know not what we do.
DEC 22, 2003 04:52 PM
reprobate said:
Its called news. How many total hours do you think were spent discussing Sadam Hussein's fucking beard last week? This war has a cost, and we're sweeping it under the rug, which does no service to either the American people or the ones making the sacrifice.
Ok reprobate, everyone else, time for a family meeting.
The strategy of the enemy is to rack up as many American casualties as possible, in order to turn US public support against our presence in Iraq, and drive us out.
That being the case, WHY HELP OUR ENEMY ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS?!!?! Do you really hate Bush so much you're willing to demand we assist our enemies in the only possible way they could defeat us? Do you really think the US is more malign and our influence more detrimental than that of Saddam Hussein and his flunkies?
Because face it, your demand for seeing maimed casualties and coffins being offloaded from cargo planes is to score political points against this president who you dont like.
DEC 22, 2003 04:52 PM
Stockula said:
Not, apparently, the a-holes shooting RPG's or planting mines on roads.
Must be nice to live in a world where everything is black and white. Maybe I'll get orders there after my next OIF (I have 2 OEF's and an OIF already)
null
[Edited on Dec 22, 2003 by meandmystar]
Cash
USA
OLD SKOOL
DEC 22, 2003 05:01 PM
reprobate said:
This war has a cost, and we're sweeping it under the rug, which does no service to either the American people or the ones making the sacrifice.
Bullshit. Who is sweeping what under a rug? Who isn't aware that there are soldiers coming home missing arms and legs........and that some of them aren't coming home?
Throughout the fighting there have been injury and death reports almost daily.
Nothing's getting swept under a fucking rug.
You and your manufactured conspiracies.
DEC 22, 2003 05:09 PM
meandmystar said:
Stockula said:
Not, apparently, the a-holes shooting RPG's or planting mines on roads.
Must be nice to live in a world where everything is black and white. Maybe I'll get orders there after my next OIF (I have 2 OEF's and an OIF already)
null
[Edited on Dec 22, 2003 by meandmystar]
I guess it's preferable to consider your CINC, the one you voluntarily chose to serve, to be a greater enemy?
DEC 22, 2003 05:12 PM
stockula said:
reprobate said:
Its called news. How many total hours do you think were spent discussing Sadam Hussein's fucking beard last week? This war has a cost, and we're sweeping it under the rug, which does no service to either the American people or the ones making the sacrifice.
Ok reprobate, everyone else, time for a family meeting.
The strategy of the enemy is to rack up as many American casualties as possible, in order to turn US public support against our presence in Iraq, and drive us out.
That being the case, WHY HELP OUR ENEMY ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS?!!?! Do you really hate Bush so much you're willing to demand we assist our enemies in the only possible way they could defeat us? Do you really think the US is more malign and our influence more detrimental than that of Saddam Hussein and his flunkies?
Because face it, your demand for seeing maimed casualties and coffins being offloaded from cargo planes is to score political points against this president who you dont like.
not trying to dis the prez...liked his dad...don't agree on the road this occupation is leading us down, but that was not the point...the point was, that there are planeloads of boys and girls that maimed and mutilated and we are not giving that aspect the coverage it needs...i don't like the idea how the press glamourizes the pressence of woman and their contribution to the mission, but somehow glosses over the rapes which happended to all the female pow's.
DEC 22, 2003 05:20 PM
stockula said:
meandmystar said:
Stockula said:
Not, apparently, the a-holes shooting RPG's or planting mines on roads.
Must be nice to live in a world where everything is black and white. Maybe I'll get orders there after my next OIF (I have 2 OEF's and an OIF already)
[Edited on Dec 22, 2003 by meandmystar]
Stockula Said:
I guess it's preferable to consider your CINC, the one you voluntarily chose to serve, to be a greater enemy?
Touche...I did volunteer, long before it was fashionable. I'll be here when he is gone too. I also swore to uphold the president's orders. In no way did I swear to like or agree with them. Is he a greater enemy? Not quite, but he is no less of one. Maybe you should enlist and chip in for the man you so strongly support. I trust or respect no politician eager for war who has never seen it.
[Edited on Dec 22, 2003 by meandmystar]
DEC 22, 2003 05:20 PM
It isn't a callous disregard for the service and sacrifices of our military people. It's about denying the enemy propaganda.
DEC 22, 2003 05:21 PM
meandmystar said:
stockula said:
meandmystar said:
Stockula said:
Not, apparently, the a-holes shooting RPG's or planting mines on roads.
Must be nice to live in a world where everything is black and white. Maybe I'll get orders there after my next OIF (I have 2 OEF's and an OIF already)
[Edited on Dec 22, 2003 by meandmystar]
I guess it's preferable to consider your CINC, the one you voluntarily chose to serve, to be a greater enemy?
Touche...I did volunteer, long before it was fashionable. I'll be here when he is gone too. I also swore to uphold the president's orders. In no way did I swear to like or agree with them. Is he a greater enemy? Not quite, but he is no less of one. Maybe you should enlist and chip in for the man you so strongly support. I trust or respect no politician eager for war who has never seen it.
Like FDR and Lincoln? Damn chickenhawks.
[Edited on Dec 22, 2003 by stockula]
DEC 22, 2003 05:30 PM
Cash said:
reprobate said:
This war has a cost, and we're sweeping it under the rug, which does no service to either the American people or the ones making the sacrifice.
Bullshit. Who is sweeping what under a rug? Who isn't aware that there are soldiers coming home missing arms and legs........and that some of them aren't coming home?
Throughout the fighting there have been injury and death reports almost daily.
Nothing's getting swept under a fucking rug.
You and your manufactured conspiracies.
Normally I leave this shit alone, and I have nothing against you personally, but are you basing your info on independant media or the big 5 (Fox, CBS, NBC, etc...)? Only in the last few months have they started reporting the injured, and only those deemed loosely as "combat action" casualties are even reported (friendly fire and suicide are deemed accidental). The real numbers are much higher, we never report (until recently) iraqi non-combatant casualties either. And contrary to popular belief there are innocent Iraqi's.
DEC 22, 2003 05:31 PM
stockula said:
The strategy of the enemy is to rack up as many American casualties as possible, in order to turn US public support against our presence in Iraq, and drive us out.
That being the case, WHY HELP OUR ENEMY ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS?!!?! Do you really hate Bush so much you're willing to demand we assist our enemies in the only possible way they could defeat us? Do you really think the US is more malign and our influence more detrimental than that of Saddam Hussein and his flunkies?
Because face it, your demand for seeing maimed casualties and coffins being offloaded from cargo planes is to score political points against this president who you dont like.
a better idea: why not just make the full truth available at all times, no matter what the issue, and allow everyone to decide for themselves whether or not the cost is worth it?
either way, there is no point to trying to "strategically" suppress information nowadays. it's going to get out to the public one way or another. all it takes is one idiot with a blog to break a story.
DEC 22, 2003 05:35 PM
esbee said:
stockula said:
esbee said:
stockula said:
Casualties in war. Shocking.
Who would publicizing casualties serve? As long as it isn't Bush, I suppose you dont care.
i have seen the enemy and the enemy is us.
Not, apparently, the a-holes shooting RPG's or planting mines on roads.
was over there the first go around...the whole situation is an exercise in futility...God help us, God forgive us for we know not what we do.
I was over there, too, for seven months, and I couldn't agree LESS. I was all over the streets of Iraq, all day every day from Basrah to Baghdad, and we accomplished a great deal. It is true that reports are not often published about the wounded. The deaths are reported, and we hear of them constantly (which is fine). The wounded aren't reported as frequently in part because figures of those wounded in ambushes are mixed with those wounded becuase of clumsiness or routine injury. But if the wounded aren't accurately reported, neither are the overwhelmingly positive things being done by civil affairs units over there - the building of schools, the refurbishment of public infrastructure - this stuff is happening, big time, and no one knows about it. I do, because I was part of it. About a month ago, one of the Iraqi's on the CPA ( I forget which one) criticized the American press for inaccurate reporting of goings-on in Iraq. To paraphrase, he said the press does not report the many positive things being done by Coalition forces. I think there was an army captain who wrote an article on this site talking about this stuff. Here is another, published in the WSJ, by a marine in my unit:
http://www.mail-archive.com/sam11@erols.com/msg00127.html
DEC 22, 2003 05:37 PM
Network Hiccup
[Edited on Dec 22, 2003 by meandmystar]
DEC 22, 2003 05:41 PM
[Stockula Said:n it.
Like FDR and Lincoln? Damn chickenhawks..
Apples and Oranges. To even compare dubya to them is wrong in many ways. War has it's purpose and motive is everything. Ours was always suspect. And by the way a Chickenhawk is an older gay man who preys on young boys. I think you meant warhawk.
[Edited on Dec 22, 2003 by meandmystar]
[Edited on Dec 22, 2003 by meandmystar]
DEC 22, 2003 06:15 PM
Cash said:
reprobate said:
This war has a cost, and we're sweeping it under the rug, which does no service to either the American people or the ones making the sacrifice.
Bullshit. Who is sweeping what under a rug? Who isn't aware that there are soldiers coming home missing arms and legs........and that some of them aren't coming home?
Throughout the fighting there have been injury and death reports almost daily.
Nothing's getting swept under a fucking rug.
You and your manufactured conspiracies.
I'm too tired and have far too much to do to slap the fifteen pages of documented media manipulation, obfuscation and blackout in here at the moment. So lets just pretend I threw a lot of incotrovertable facts in your face and you went off to sulk like we usually do.
The DoD is delaying release, denying acess, lumping all injuries together so as to prevent people from differentiating between casualties and injuries, gaging servicemen and lying though their teeth all in the name of sanitizing this conflict such that even Disney would call it saccharine. Don't believe me, make friends with google.
DEC 22, 2003 06:22 PM
stockula said:
It isn't a callous disregard for the service and sacrifices of our military people. It's about denying the enemy propaganda.
And how are solid facts propaganda? And for that matter who is going to make use of them? The massive PR machine of Ba'athist irregulars?
Hate to break it to you but preventing the release of information that will be unpopular is propaganda. The consent for this adventure was manufactured, and BushCo is desperately afraid it will erode back to the 32% it was this time last year with an election coming up.
DEC 22, 2003 06:24 PM
Screwtape said:
esbee said:
stockula said:
esbee said:
stockula said:
Casualties in war. Shocking.
Who would publicizing casualties serve? As long as it isn't Bush, I suppose you dont care.
i have seen the enemy and the enemy is us.
Not, apparently, the a-holes shooting RPG's or planting mines on roads.
was over there the first go around...the whole situation is an exercise in futility...God help us, God forgive us for we know not what we do.
I was over there, too, for seven months, and I couldn't agree LESS. I was all over the streets of Iraq, all day every day from Basrah to Baghdad, and we accomplished a great deal. It is true that reports are not often published about the wounded. The deaths are reported, and we hear of them constantly (which is fine). The wounded aren't reported as frequently in part because figures of those wounded in ambushes are mixed with those wounded becuase of clumsiness or routine injury. But if the wounded aren't accurately reported, neither are the overwhelmingly positive things being done by civil affairs units over there - the building of schools, the refurbishment of public infrastructure - this stuff is happening, big time, and no one knows about it. I do, because I was part of it. About a month ago, one of the Iraqi's on the CPA ( I forget which one) criticized the American press for inaccurate reporting of goings-on in Iraq. To paraphrase, he said the press does not report the many positive things being done by Coalition forces. I think there was an army captain who wrote an article on this site talking about this stuff. Here is another, published in the WSJ, by a marine in my unit:
http://www.mail-archive.com/sam11@erols.com/msg00127.html
yes, great things are being done...but for who and what is the agenda...too many factions too many variables...God help us all, and God bless ya'all who get your marching orders...Grace and Peace be with you all.
DEC 22, 2003 07:49 PM
s5 said:
stockula said:
The strategy of the enemy is to rack up as many American casualties as possible, in order to turn US public support against our presence in Iraq, and drive us out.
That being the case, WHY HELP OUR ENEMY ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS?!!?! Do you really hate Bush so much you're willing to demand we assist our enemies in the only possible way they could defeat us? Do you really think the US is more malign and our influence more detrimental than that of Saddam Hussein and his flunkies?
Because face it, your demand for seeing maimed casualties and coffins being offloaded from cargo planes is to score political points against this president who you dont like.
a better idea: why not just make the full truth available at all times, no matter what the issue, and allow everyone to decide for themselves whether or not the cost is worth it?
either way, there is no point to trying to "strategically" suppress information nowadays. it's going to get out to the public one way or another. all it takes is one idiot with a blog to break a story.
Your sentiment seems in the right place, but consider these:
So why does this site supress information like is spelled out in the TOS?
Should anyone have total access to information on the war? Is pictures included?
Should children be excluded? High School Students who are doing a report for their history class? The enemy?
Do you need "the full truth" to make your decision on this war? I don't. I only have to know very little to come up with a verdict. The same is true in a courtroom.
And what exactly is "the full truth"? If you know where to find it, could you tell me the way there, I will pay any price for any revelation of "the full truth".
To obtain a conviction on a crime, the state must prove motive, ability, and lack of alibi. This war has been most criticized because of the motive(s) used to bring it about. Questioning our ability to carry it out was never a consideration. And we should have been elsewhere, doing other things when Iraq as an "eminent threat" was identified. We still are taking casualties in Afghanistan, and we only control - in reality - the capital city, a few airfields, and that's about it.
The problem we started with, no clear political objective that victory will bring about, is a violation of Clauswitz's idea of war being "politics carried out by other means". What was our purpose in Iraq? It started out with weapons of mass distruction. Now what is our purpose?
As to wanting to see the bodies and hear or read the stories of casualties will only bring about some of the desired effect, a disgusted public. But this has backfired in the past. Goya was commisioned to create plates in a book showing the horrors of the Napoleanic Wars. People bought the book mostly to be titilated.
Susan Sontag has written two books about this: _On_Photography_, and _Regarding_The_Pain_of_Others_. I suggest a reading of these if anyone seriously considers any type of "showing" of casualties.
DEC 23, 2003 12:24 AM
PlanetG said:
a better idea: why not just make the full truth available at all times, no matter what the issue, and allow everyone to decide for themselves whether or not the cost is worth it?
either way, there is no point to trying to "strategically" suppress information nowadays. it's going to get out to the public one way or another. all it takes is one idiot with a blog to break a story.
Your sentiment seems in the right place, but consider these:
So why does this site supress information like is spelled out in the TOS?
Could it perhaps be possible the the motives and responsibilities of a porn site and a republic are so divergent than any alleged parallels are completely specious?
Should anyone have total access to information on the war?
No, and no one does, nor is anyone arguing that they should. What people are arguing is that what we are seeing is the inevitable result of self interested parties being the gatekeepers of information. Once you allow that a category be restricted, there is no way to part the curtain and find out what. You haven't been told, which means that it could be anything for any reason. This is why the least possible restriction and the greatest vigilance are required.
Is pictures included?
Why should the be subject to any different standard?
Should children be excluded? High School Students who are doing a report for their history class? The enemy?
None of these make any sense whatsoever. It is not the character of the audience than can ever be considered, but soley the character of the information. Either the information is so volitile that it supercedes the polity's right to be informed of the acts in its name, or it doesn't. No one is asserting the right of the Jefferson High Quill to a White House press pass, but freely available information must be just that.
Do you need "the full truth" to make your decision on this war?
Its not the war that is at stake. We live in a democracy and a well informed public is vital to the sucess of that endeavor. A manipuilated choice is not a choice at all. This is not a vote of confidence it is the judgement on each any every thing that is carried out in our name and if we choose to care, we have the right to know. Does the fact that the USS Lincoln farce was completely wagging the dog matter? Not to the ourcome or even propriety of the war, but certainly to any number of other very valid considerations, not the least of which is what the hell else are they lying about.
I don't. I only have to know very little to come up with a verdict.
I hope to God you mean very little in comparison to the volume of things that could be known. What more, once again whats at issue here is also veracity. If what you think you know isn't so, Sam I Am, you're in deep shit and don't even know it.
The same is true in a courtroom.
Ever seen a real trial?
And what exactly is "the full truth"? If you know where to find it, could you tell me the way there, I will pay any price for any revelation of "the full truth".
To obtain a conviction on a crime, the state must prove motive, ability, and lack of alibi.
Simply false. The state must prove none of those things. Ability is implied in actus reus, but that and mens rea are the legal standard. Whats more despite the lack of correlation in your analogy, far more is at issue in the case for war. The motives have been impugned because the reasons given were lies. That there is rationalization and self dealing at the heart of it is only half the objection. In the law giving a false alibi is de rigueur. In a democracy it undermines both the legitimacy and efficacy of the state.
This war has been most criticized because of the motive(s) used to bring it about.
See above.
Questioning our ability to carry it out was never a consideration.
You need to broaden your reading list. We haven't won this war. We haven't even defined what victory is. We deposed a head of state, everything else is up for grabs. You say we have no political objective, we don't even have a military objective.
esbee
San Antonio, TX
November 2003
DEC 22, 2003 02:18 PM