Feminism VS Masochism

I've spent way too much time and energy on message boards (including at feminist sites) trying to talk to SNAG (Sensitive New Age Guy) men about their passive-aggressive tendencies, where they try to please women by being overly submissive, and then resenting the fact that being unassertive and passive doesn't work like they think it should. I spent ages talking to some boy at the BUST magazine boards -- he was all Women's Studies'd up, sensitive and caring -- and we had a long dialogue about masculinity issues.

I'll tell you this much -- the feedback I got, on the boards and in private, was that the women there identified much more with what I was presenting in terms of masculinity than with what he was saying. Just because they were feminists, didn't mean they wanted eunuchs for boyfriends and husbands.

Without wanting to get into a long series of exchanges, let's try these.

1. "What appropriate aggressive behavior is" is between consenting adults. Don't be aggressive with someone you don't know well.

2. Assertive behaviour is not the same as aggressive behaviour.

3. Confident behaviour is not the same as aggressive behaviour.

4. Your task is to find ways to be confident and assertive without being a prick. Dont assume that you'll find a balance that works for everybody. Find a balance that works for the people you want it to work for.

5. Stop assuming that women are to blame for all your problems. If gender relations are a mess (and they usually are) we're all in it together, so let's all take the blame.

6. In the spirit of point 5, for fuck's sake, stop whining.

Is he still hot when he's prancing around being Peter Allen?

I feel like I've hijacked something beautiful and made it quite tawdry. *sniff* I'm sorry.

Al's right again! And besides, who says Peter Allen isn't hot??

Bollocks. I hear he waves his claws around during "I Go To Rio".



Edited because of an errant t.

[Edited on Dec 07, 2003 by TheFuckOffKid]

I love TFOK.

*takes unravled, throws her manfully over his shoulder (in consensually assertive fashion) and marches off to his cave, making seductive grunting noises*

I think it comes down to self-confidence.If a male or female knows who they are and is not ashamed of being that individual then what you see is what you get.
If your naturally a passive individual,like me,then don't strut around like you own the place because people will expect that of you all the time.If you're more agressive then don't act all meek and mild just to get into bed with someone,only to wonder why they think your an asshole or a bitch when you start being yourself.
I was under the impression that feminism was a movement to have females treated as individuals NOT as a stereotype.Usually blanket statements concerning groups;ethnic,race,gender etc are the mentally lazy way of dealing with the world.It's a lot more difficult to treat everyone as an individual but everyone deserves that right in my opinion.

PS. The Phoenix is the personification of the multivereses life force.

Aaaaaaand

LYING BITCHES!

Ohhhh, wait... I'm sorry, you've learned to hate and distrust women because they try to be sensitive to your feelings. Stupid feminism! It's all feminism's fault!

I'll tell you one thing-- the last two women I've slept with, it began like this:

I am sitting on a couch with the woman in question. The next thing I know I'm flat on my back with her tongue in my mouth wondering, "Whoa! How the hell did this happen?"



And, to answer the original question, the answer to it requires an entire book. Read The Bonds of Love by Jessica Benjamin. It's pretty dense going, lots of footnotes and heavy ideas, but it's well worth it if you can make it through. From the back cover:

"Why do people submit to authority and even desire pleasure from the power others have over them? What is the appeal of domination and submission, and why are they so prevalent in erotic life? Why is it so difficult for men and women to meet as equals? Why, indeed, do they continue to recapitulate the positions of master and slave?

"In The Bonds of Love, noted feminist theorist and psychoanalyst Jessica Benjamin explains why we accept and perpetuate relationships of domination and submission. She reveals that domination is a complex psychological process which ensnares both parties in bonds of complicity, and shows how it underlies our family life, our social institutions, and especially our sexual relations, in spite of our conscious commitment to equality and freedom."

Not only is this the book that made me decide that I'm a feminist, it completely changed my concept of what it means to have a concept of identity. It's honestly one of those books (Hermann and Chomsky's Manufacturing Consent is another) that completely altered and shaped my worldview.

I agree, that's why I said theories like Feminism and Marxism are tools not movements. I know a little about Social Sciences I've got a long bunch letters after my name that say I'm a qualified geek...