life is a cabaret, ol' chum

i watched the film 'cabaret' tonight for the umpteenth time, but this time my stomach knotted up when i realized that one may never know for certain when it's time to get out of a country that's falling apart or being taken over, before the shit hits the fan. i wonder about that now - what has to happen in the u.s. that signals 'get out before the shit hits the fan.' do you have a bottom line that would signal that for you? that would make you pack up and get outta here?

i think the question rests on some assumptions that are perhaps not quite solid...the US isn't like France, or some other wimpy country that gets invaded and taken over every single time a little bit of shit hits the fan. it's a huge chunk of land with massive easy to cross borders to Canada and Mexico, not to mention vast areas of wilderness to retreat into. i really doubt anyone could ever 'take over' the US...perhaps another country could engage in mutually assured nuclear annihilation with us, but that's about it. i think any real danger of the US becoming a crappy place to live would come from within by having the government slowly become more and more controlling of it's citizens and passing more and more restrictive laws to the point where quality of life declines and people want to go someplace where they can smoke a joint and fuck each other in the ass without getting arrested.

Of course Cabaret takes place in Berlin, Germany, where the government did slowly become more controlling from within.

EXACTLY


[Edited on Nov 29, 2003 by Eraser_X]

What Cyd said. You ever see Napoleon try to take Russia? Or Hitler? It's just no easy!

wow, i'm amazed at the depth and breadth of responses so far- thank you. what got me thinking about this in the first place was how the movie portrays the phenomenon of, um, 'not paying attention', so to speak. people weren't paying attention to what was going on outside of their small spheres of influence because so much time in a day had to be taken up with trying to make a buck. what time was left was spent partying to try to forget about how bad things were. i do see parallels here in the u.s., but i'm wondering if this is a strong sign in and of itself, or if there are other signs that are more significant. also, i am genuinely concerned that i won't know far enough ahead of time to get out, or at least get my family out, if certain events go on here in the u.s. that make it dangerous or at least extremely unethical to live here. do these kinds of changes happen so slowly that you just don't put it all together in time? i realize this is sort of paranoid, but the movie really spooked me on this point. it would seem that at least some of the criteria for the decision to leave would be based on one's personal ethic or situation, so i was curious how those individual criteria would vary from person to person. your thoughts are appreciated.

hehe, of course, you understand i have no idea what Cabaret is except for some ads i saw on tv for it when i was eight. i just like wandering in threads and spewing stream of conciousness drivel.

but to put things in perspective even though I haven't experienced Cabaret, let me deflect your cute parting barb with the fact that ive spent many a month roaming around the world from studying abroad in london to hiking through europe including france, germany, greece and italy. i have a very good idea of where the US stands and where I stand in the great scheme of things from first hand cultural immersion of living with host families to a wide range of history and political science courses.

that said...i still say the french are annoying, and history is on my side when it comes to calling them wimpy. just go google the phrase "french military victories"....

[Edited on Nov 29, 2003 by cyd]

*points and laughs*

we surrender! we surrender!!

Good cheese, though....

Camelot is not an address, rather a state of mind...regardless of what the world looks or feels like from your perspective, you have freedoms and opportunities which do not exist in any other country in the world...If you find camelot on the map, tell me and I will go with you.

Q: what is the difference between a piece of toast and a french soldier?
A: you can teach a piece of toast how to fight

Q: why are the streets of paris lined with trees?
A: to shade the germans as they march in.

i originally read the title of this board as "life is a cabaret of chum."
this is way less confusing, but somehow a bit of a let down.

at any rate we're all fucked.

[Edited on Nov 29, 2003 by thatzac]

I been around, couple of different countries, quite a few cities and three or four states. I think we have it pretty good here, but comfort is no excuse for compacency. I keep looking at the Canadian border (well, generally north) and also tracing the outline of New Zealand on the globe. Not that I don't love this country... I do - I think it has the potential to be the greatest country in the world. Unfortunately, it is populated by a huge number of narcisistic (sp?) pigs who are only out for their own good. Since we are, loosely speaking, democratic (I know - we are a republic, but who wants to deal with that thread again ) we tend to not go in for the whole protecting of the free world and tend to gravitate toward the protection of the private interest.

I do see what Lamia is saying... this government, this country, both are growing steadily less representative of me... The lesser of two evils is still evil. My question to her is this:
It may be time to run, it may be past time... but, my darling... where will you run to?

CANADA?!?...reality check...check out the tax rate and medical system...our good friends come south of the border when they need fast and good medical care...don't know why we look ouside our borders for the answers that our countries founding fathers had 200 + years ago.

good question. ideally, if it was a matter of safety, i'd head for canada since it's so close to where i live. but chances are it's more likely it would be a matter of principle. a friend of mine recently expatriated to france for that very reason. he couldn't in good conscience remain in the u.s. i could join him there - just what france needs, another bitter expat american.

but i think what you're getting at is there really is no perfect place where justice reigns and freedom rings and blah blah. i would have to reluctantly agree with that. and i do love where i live. so i probably wouldn't leave even if the shit did hit the fan. i'd stay and duke it out, join the underground, subvert, never surrender, etc.

For Esbee:

I musta missed that... unless you are talking about lack of representation, that's all I feel here. No politician that represents me has a snowball's chance in the warm red place, or here for that matter. My voice is nothing in America, and I've used it. In highschool when I protested violence and supported the troups I had a redneck hold a knife to my throat and threaten to cut off my hair. I watch people from the same background as me ground under the heel of a system that is so bureaucratic (sp?) that they will never come up for air. Sure, things are okay for the majority, but my questions are unanswered, my concerns remain forever... So, what answers do the founding fathers have for me?


[edited for clarity]

And - Yeah Lamia, me too, prolly. "Damn the man! Save the Empire "

[Edited on Nov 29, 2003 by marley386]

A handfull of rich people, perhaps, but by and large, we're quite happy with our system, even the conservatives.

Because the world's changed a little in the last 200 years? Because your founding fathers' answers might not be infallable?


[Edited on Nov 29, 2003 by troglodyte]

Ok, I'll be serious for a moment. Potshots at the French aside, I believe that it is important for a country to be able to control its own destiny. The French may be concerned with their own individuality on a philosophical level, but if they spend too much time in the ivory towers of high-minded academia and too little time with their feet on the ground figuring out how to physically defend their country, all the philosophy and ideals in the world won't help them the next time someone decides that the eiffel tower would make a nice trophy.

In this regard, I have much more respect for North Korea...North Korea may be a pain in the ass, chock full of starving people who live in constant fear of a corrupt despotic government...BUT...at least North Korea managed to outmaneuver the US repeatedly over the last half century and keep them at bay with the threat of nuclear war.

Also, please note that while I happen to currently reside in the US, I am not using it as a benchmark, and I have no particular love for it or it's current form of government. I simply think that being able to prevent invasion should be high on a country's priority list.

*cough*cough*NATO*cough*

So you think nuclear weapons proliferation is a good thing? Their success at "out-maneuvering the US" hardly excuses their abusiveness.

there is no such thing as right or wrong or good and evil at that level of international politics...there are only shades of grey and shrewd political manuvering. of course nuclear weapons proliferation is a 'bad' thing for everyone on the planet..North Korea doesn't give a shit about that however, they are playing a game of chess with the US and they have a reasonably strong position.

perhaps NATO will protect the French the next time...perhaps not. I just tire of their endless strikes and philosophical idealism.

[Edited on Feb 04, 2004 by Lamia]

I doubt anyone could come up with, and execute a better system than they did...wasn't diss'n our neighbor to the north...hell, i see one day due to economic collapse, that canada and the u.s. will become one nation. (sans quebec)

shameless promo for
ladykier , but if any of you are in or can get to manhattan soon, ladykier will be sally bowles (the lead) in cabaret on bway for some performances in december. contact her on how to get good seats and when she's on. i haven't seen the movie, but i've been to see her 5 times in the past few months. she is absolutely phenomenal. and i hear the movie and the play are very differently done?

anyway.

Submitting to totalitarians is never a wise decision.