Food for thought

I am stealing this from another board I read by someone who did a bit of research.

Let's review a brief history of imperealism.

Here is what Julius Caesar wrote in Chapter 14, Book 1 of his reports from Gaul (as he was conquering it, note: Romans always spoke about themselves in the third person).
"and that he felt the more indignant at them, in proportion as they had happened undeservedly to the Roman people: for if they had been conscious of having done any wrong, it would not have been difficult to be on their guard, but for that very reason had they been deceived, because neither were they aware that any offense had been given by them, on account of which they should be afraid, nor did they think that they ought to be afraid without cause." classics.mit.edu/Caesar/gallic.1.1.html
Yes, Caesar was justifying the conquering of Gaul because some Celtic tribes had raided Roman lands, and the Romans were afraid, and therefore justified in conquering all of Gaul and enslaving the people.

"You are now witnessing the beginning of a great epoch in German history. This fire is the beginning,"
Adolf Hitler after the terrorist bombing of the Reichstag (German Parliment building)

19 days later German Parliment passed "Law for Terminating the Suffering of People and Nation" this law eliminated: Free expression of opinion, Freedom of the press, Right of assembly and association, Right to privacy of postal and electronic communications, Protection against unlawful searches and seizures, Individual property rights, and States' right of self-government.

"By the most brutal methods of terrorism, a regime sought to maintain an existence that was condemned by the overwhelming majority of its people...I have tried to persuade the responsible authorities that it is impossible for a great nation, because it is unworthy of it, to stand by and watch millions belonging to a great, an ancient civilized people be denied rights by their government... I have endeavoured to find some way to alleviate a tragic fate. One agreement was signed only to be broken. I then tried a second time to bring about an understanding. A few weeks later, we were forced to the conclusion that the government [of Austria] had no intention of carrying out this agreement in the spirit that had inspired it, but in order to create an excuse. I have determined, therefore, to place the help of our country at the service of these millions. Since this morning, our soldiers are on the march across all of Austria's frontiers."

-- Adolf Hitler, March 12, 1938, justifying the German invasion of Austria.

"We have no interest in oppressing other people. We are not moved by hatred against any other nation. We bear no grudge. I know how grave a thing war is. I wanted to spare our people such an evil. It is not so much the country [of Czechoslovakia]; it is rather its leader [Dr. Edward Benes]. He has led a reign of terror. He has hurled countless people into the profoundest misery. Through his continuous terrorism, he has succeeded in reducing millions of his people to silence. The Czech maintenance of a tremendous military arsenal can only be regarded as a focus of danger. We have displayed a truly unexampled patience, but I am no longer willing to remain inactive while this madman ill-treats millions of human beings."

-- Adolf Hitler, April 14, 1939, justifying the German invasion of Czechoslovakia.

"The wave of appalling terrorism against the [minority] inhabitants of Poland, and the atrocities that have been taking place in that country are terrible for the victims, but intolerable for a Great Power which has been expected to remain a passive onlooker. We will not continue to tolerate the persecution of the minority, the killing of many, and their forcible removal under the most cruel conditions. I see no way by which I can induce the government of Poland to adopt a peaceful solution. But I should despair of any honourable future for my own people if we were not, in one way or another, to solve this question."

-- Adolf Hitler, August 23, 1939, justifying the German invasion of Poland.

"On my orders, the United States military has begun strikes against al Qaeda terrorist training camps and military installations of the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. These carefully targeted actions are designed to disrupt the use of Afghanistan as a terrorist base of operations, and to attack the military capability of the Taliban regime.
....
At the same time, the oppressed people of Afghanistan will know the generosity of America and our allies. As we strike military targets, we'll also drop food, medicine and supplies to the starving and suffering men and women and children of Afghanistan.
The United States of America is a friend to the Afghan people, and we are the friends of almost a billion worldwide who practice the Islamic faith. The United States of America is an enemy of those who aid terrorists and of the barbaric criminals who profane a great religion by committing murder in its name.
This military action is a part of our campaign against terrorism, another front in a war that has already been joined through diplomacy, intelligence, the freezing of financial assets and the arrests of known terrorists by law enforcement agents in 38 countries. Given the nature and reach of our enemies, we will win this conflict by the patient accumulation of successes, by meeting a series of challenges with determination and will and purpose."
George Bush, October 7, 2001 justifying the invasion of Afghanistan

"Good morning. American and coalition forces have begun a concerted campaign against the regime of Saddam Hussein. In this war, our coalition is broad, more than 40 countries from across the globe. Our cause is just, the security of the nations we serve and the peace of the world. And our mission is clear, to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people."
George Bush, March 22, 2003 justifying the Invasion of Iraq.

I don't want to live here anymore.

aye

Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to relive it?

I nominate this post for fastest devolution to Godwin 2003.

That was also brought up on the other board as well.

God damn, people overuse Hitler as a comparison to whatever the fuck they want to argue against.

it's a sad thing that we have come to this so late in out countries history. the fact that we havn't learned anything in over two hundred years of war and oppression is painfully obvious. but the choices left to us are to move to other countries with similar problems not reported by our news or to stay and fight for what is right. though we may not be ready to take up arms against our own government we can stand up and fight. i still believe we can make a difference through assembly and voting. we have only ourselves to blame for the turn of events over the last few years. after all the germans also rallied behind hitler and turned a blind eye to the atrocities of it's government. of course we could also blame the nader-traitors. but it's threads like these that get people thinking and talking and hopefully acting.

it's a sad thing that we have come to this so late in out countries history. the fact that we havn't learned anything in over two hundred years of war and oppression is painfully obvious. but the choices left to us are to move to other countries with similar problems not reported by our news or to stay and fight for what is right. though we may not be ready to take up arms against our own government we can stand up and fight. i still believe we can make a difference through assembly and voting. we have only ourselves to blame for the turn of events over the last few years. after all the germans also rallied behind hitler and turned a blind eye to the atrocities of it's government. of course we could also blame the nader-traitors. but it's threads like these that get people thinking and talking and hopefully acting.

*nod*

For all the people bitching about the comparison to Hitler, do you not see WHY they can be compared? Did you even read the thread? It looks to me like GW took a page out of Hitlers speech writing book.

If you don't have anything to say besides bullshit about people making comparisons to one of the biggest tyrants and most evil men in last century, than go to another thread.

I have to say - that is the most eerie thing I've read in a long time. I just hope that the similarities end with those statements.

Could you provide a source for the quotes please?

If Hitler said " I am going to invade Poland, France ect... because they are stupid or I dont like the way they look, then I will try to kill all the Jews in Europe", would the Germans have fallowed him? Get a clue.

Comparing the similarities of these two men is stupid.

right. and Poland and Czecholslovakia were under the command of someone along the lines of Saddam Hussein. And Germany was of course attacked by terrorists supported by the Polish national government that crashed...what? a steam engine train into a major international commerce hub.

your comparison is irresponsible, irrelevant, and little more than inflamatory.

I'm not a fan of President Shrub, and I'm hopeful he'll be out of office soon. But try to present some context or at least some kind of an argument for comparison other than canned speeches.

The context is lying to the people about your motives for war and invasion so that they go along with what you are doing unquestioningly. Sound familiar?

I think that there is a basis for comparison beyond that - look at the recinding of personal liberties after the terrorists bombed the German parliament building - there were other acts that we would deem terrorism around that time in Germany too - then they took away civil liberties - then they started invading. All these things are happening here but on a much less flagrant level. True - Hitler than moved on to more horrible things, but with the blessing of the populace. The people of Germany blamed the Jews for the problems they saw in their lives, and now the American people tend to look at anyone in a turban as a potential terrorist, I think that the comparison maybe a little premature, but thank God for that! Maybe - in the unlikely event that we are moving towards something horrific - people jumping the gun like this may be what makes us aware that it is going on.

"And maybe they'll come for the unionists, and maybe they'll come for the jews, and maybe they'll come for the heretics, but they'll never come for you!
When you hear the steps in the hallway, when you taste the iron fear, don't you go crying out for justice cause there's no one left to hear!"

Fred Small, The Face at the Window

I read it. I don't agree.

I'm about as left as they come, believe me. I abhore GWB, and the dangerous line he's crossing when it comes to US foreign policy. He lies, cheats his way into office, and is, in general, a fucking moron. A hand-puppet if you will.

However, the comparisons to Hitler are unjustified. If you think that this thread is the first on these forums to mention it, then wow, you must not browse the Current Events boards very often. I'd wager that about 40-50% of the threads regarding the US mention some sort of link between 30-40's Germany and the present day US. You've got a hell of a lot of precedent just in these forums alone.

The US will back out of Iraq, honestly. They've put far too much PR into this at home that it would be political suicide to not follow through. Even so, when GWB loses the election next year (which he most likely will) his successor will probably make it the first order of business.

Saddam was a bad guy. I never supported the move to enter Iraq without international support, but he really did need to be stopped. However, the US is not solely to blame for not complying with the UN. Tony Blair and Co. could have put a stop, or even slowed the machine down, but they are just as responsible as the US for all actions in Iraq (not to mention the other coalition countries).

As for the changes made at home (Patriot act etc.) although excessive, they're hardly alone in the world. In Canada, the immigration and customs laws have been ramped-up to the point of being ridiculous (granted, this was done because of US pressure), and I'm sure other countries around the world have enacted similar legislation.

The thing that worries me is that there is some question among the populace as to wether or not Shrub was elected... I mean - he sits there in Washington in the office of the President, but he sorta pulled the win out of the hat - a little bit of a magic trick - and one things for sure - he aint Gore (thank Gawd!) But still - if you've read the posts about the election machines and their faulty and questionable software, if you've looked at the almost insane nationalism being represented by the adds crying that anyone who questions is a traitor, if you've looked at all of these frightening things and don't think of the worse case scenario then maybe you aren't scared enough. Just think - if the next pres is another one from the same bolt of cloth as GWB, couldn't things get worse? I don't know if the comparison is accurate, I don't care either - I'm just scared, every day ... I don't want this country to fall prey to same illness that destroyed Germany, wether or not the man in the driver's seat is the same as that other madman so many years ago or not, the American people are buying into this to an extent that frightens me. So I'm gonna question it now in the hopes that I'm wrong.

This is exactly what it is. No Hitler and Bush aren't the same. But they are getting to have the same sorta speeches, the same sorta laws passed. It's worrysome to me. The idea of fighting terrorism in the name of imperialism is nothing new, but people don't wanna be on guard about it. More innocents have died in Afghanistan from our military strikes, than the number died in the WTC, but somehow we are more just? Killing is never just when innocent people die. This is not 'Bush is a NAZI' thread, it's more of a 'Stand up and be more aware of the dangers of misleading the public and engaging in imperialism' thread.

Both guys are using the same lies to justify invading other nations as well as curtailing freedom of expression at home. That should raise some red flags in your mind.

I'm not saying that GW has gas chambers where he plans to eliminate Muslims, but his staff are clearly using the same propaganda techniques that another tyrant found successful.

What if GW had said, "I want to invade Iraq so we can seize control of their oil. Because our priority is the oil, this invasion will mean indefinitely depriving Iraq of clean water and electricity. Because the war will destroy the nation, the majoirty of their people will become unemployed. Their people will suffer greatly as the health care system and schools collapse. The people of Iraq will hate us. The world will hate us. A few of us, especially my richest friends, will profit greatly."

Guess what ... no one would have supported his invasion of Iraq.

Evildoc said:

that another tyrant found successful.

Why are you calling Bush a tyrant?

Have we stole their oil? No. Unemployed people? They were before we went there. They will suffer greatly because their health care system and schools collapse? Funny how Saddam was using all of his oil sales money to buy (illegaly)weapons instead of doing this himself. The people of Iraq will hate us? I doubt it. They want us out to run their own country but I do not think they will hate us.

What you fail to take into consideration, is that the government of Afghanistan was blatantly supporting international terrorist group(s) who launched the most horrific attack on US civilians in history.. What the fuck do you think the government was going to do in Afghanistan?.I hardly see any of the US actions in Afghanistan as being naked US imperialist aggression ,(and save me the bullshit about the supposed pipeline)so any comparison to Hitler's blatant land grabs of the late 30's is rubbish.
You wanna talk Iraq? That's a whole different ball of wax,but
to compare Hitler's philosophy of Lebensraum , with what is happening in Afghanistan, is knee-jerk sophmoric ,and wholly ignorant of the facts in this continuing matter.