how tax cuts stimulate the economy

I think tax cuts are bad...except when they apply to me (which they rarely do, for some reason).

Okay, that has to be the absolute funniest thing I've read this year. somebody is gonna have to slap this freaking grin off my face. Thanks for the post

That was a good read, thanks.

Affluent, urban East Coast professionals supporting a liberal candidate? UNHEARD OF!
Some people think the government puts their money to good use and are actually HAPPY to pay taxes, even if they pay an inordinate share (my mom is one such person).

Soros doesn't have to worry about tax cuts, as his Quantum Fund is based offshore.....so he can evade taxes. Before he started his crusade on Bush, Soros wrote a book in 1998 criticising global capitalism. I read it because of the huge dissonance of a guy like Soros criticising the very system that allowed him to become a billionaire. So I was interested in what he had to say. Frankly, I can't remember anything.

[Edited on Nov 14, 2003 by stockula]

Yes, the economy is recovering and the middle classes are spending the money they're saving from tax cuts. Just because Bush's economic policy doesn't unsettle me (though it does) does not mean that I am unjustified in my harsh resentment towards him for his disreputable foreign policy. Iraq: unilateral; starting to look more and more like the early years of Vietnam every day(ahem: draft boards? escalating violence?). Altogether unsettling as both the United States and Israel continue to alienate themselves from the world at large to the tune of "You're either with us or against us."

That's the issue. Who cares about his internal tax policy? I sure as hell don't.

Soros is evil.

Despite the philanthropy, guided talks with the World Social Forum (countering the WEF), and this supposed Run-Bush-Out-Of-Office campaign, he's a man that was largely responsible for crushing an entire country's economy and sending it into such a depression that they still haven't fully recovered.

He's very good a currency speculation, which is probably the most dangerous form of money laundering the world over, but also with the highest stakes.

His criticism of Global Capitalism is a bit late in coming. For real solutions, to real problems, he should surrender up that nest egg he's got tucked away.

Q: Because - I mean put it in easily understandable terms. I mean if you could have profited by destroying Malaysia's currency, would you have shrunk from that? -Ted Koppel

A: Not necessarily because that would have been an unintended consequence of my action. And it's not my job as a participant to calculate the consequences. This is what a market is. That's the nature of a market. So I'm a participant in the market. - George Soros

Yeah, what a great guy.

What country did Soros ruin? All he did was knock those central banks who tried to artifically control their currencies back into economic reality. He failed with Malaysia.

[Edited on Nov 14, 2003 by stockula]

Since when was this a disscussion about Soros' beef with capitalism?

If he has one, that's news to me. I generally don't keep too up to date on current events, figures, etc.

As far I was aware though, Soros was being mentioned specifically in reference to his desire to oust Bush which, based on the Washington Post article I read, was due to what he deemed as "'America, under Bush, [being] a danger to the world'" and "'When hear[ing] Bush say, 'You're either with us or against us,' it reminds [him] of the Germans.' It conjures up memories, he said, of Nazi slogans on the walls, Der Feind Hort mit ("The enemy is listening"). 'My experiences under Nazi and Soviet rule have sensitized me,' he said."

Now I don't believe that Hitler and Bush are one in the same, or anything like that, however, I do believe that with global politics as they are right now, and where it is they seem to be going, we are now drawing closer and closer to what could potentially be the break-out of the third world war than we ever have been before, or at least since the Cuban Missile Crisis back in '62. I do agree with Soros that having George W. Bush as president right now is a threat to world security and I don't really give a fuck about the internal US economy or any other kind of domestic fiscal action on anybody's part whatsoever when so much more is obviously at stake. Is Iraq going to turn out another Vietnam? Is Iraq just going to turn into Rhineland? Are we now just waiting and waiting for something to happen, for someone to do something?

To me, it kind of seems like we are and I think there's too much going on right now for us to just sit back and wait, thumbing it, until someone else gets us rid of boisterous bumbling Bush for us, which would be a very nice start.

[Edited on Nov 14, 2003 by hal]

S5's article points out that even people who have benefitted from Bush's policies are against him. Soros, being an investor, has to and yet has made it his mission in life to get rid of Bush.

I was just calling attention that Soros has done something this before with this book which criticised global marketplace that made his vast fortune possible http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1891620274/qid=1068874131/sr=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/103-2878725-6852631?v=glance&s=books
I'm not calling him a hypocrite at all. On the contrary, it's his style to do something like this.

The author of the article seems to be marvelling at this phenomenon and points to it as proof that Bush is alienating everyone. I dont think so. These people just have differnt ideas about the policies and philosophies that should govern society, which is more important to them than the economics of Bush's tax cuts that affect them directly.

I do the same thing, except on the other side of the coin. I have friends who ask me why I support Republican policies if I'm not rich, I read Democrats asking why ANYONE who isn't a big Monopoly guy sitting on bags of money, like in a Thomas Nast cartoon, could possibly vote Republican.

Like the people in the Slate article, people like me vote on the policies we think are correct. I dont vote according to what candidates promise to give to me. I dont look at cuts on the top of a progressive taxation scheme as a "giveaway". That's their fucking money that they earned. I dont understand how sharply skewing the top taxation rate against the biggest earners is "fair" and bringing it more in line with lower earners is "unfair".



[Edited on Nov 14, 2003 by stockula]

George Soros is a good economist. He knows how things work. He probably realizes that the tax cuts are bad for the country overall. He's into global funding and he probably not into the U.S. making bad economic decisions, its bad for his business and it probably affects his pride.

The tax plan itself has no real economic effectibility whatsoever. The whole idea about it is that it will spirt the economy by giving people more money to spend, therefore will stimulate the economy and make the whole world go round. But the bad thing is, people SAVE money. People who are getting tax cuts probably think it's a good idea to throw it in a savings account and just let the interest sit on it. It's a reasonable thing to do for the average joe but the worst thing to do on a global thought. Keeping the money you got from the tax cuts doesn't do anything for the economy except freeze it, meanwhile we've got the largest deficet in history. I hope to god that the U.S.'s credit line doesn't fall apart on us because of it.

Taxes are the price of civilization. An economic policy based on forever making more and more cuts to taxation is a way of appealing to a mindset that thinks, "the hell with civilization, what's in it for me?"

Do you know how banks work? When people stick their savings into banks, the banks turn around and loan that money out to finance consumption and investment. That's how banks earn their money. If people stuck their money into mattresses, THEN it wouldn't be doing anything. But interest rates aren't giving savers a good rate of return, and Americans are doing the opposite of saving right now. They're borrowing.

As for the "biggest deficit in history", in absolute dollar terms, that's correct. But given that the dollar isn't worth what it used to be, and that the economy is bigger than it used to be, in percentage terms the current deficit isn't especially big.



[Edited on Nov 15, 2003 by stockula]

spacemen3 said:
Soros is evil. . . he's a man that was largely responsible for crushing an entire country's economy

This is pure commie conspiracy theory. Do you really think George Soros, net worth 7 billion, can singlehandedly crush the economy of Malaysia GDP 210 billion, 'net worth' many trillions?

To paraphrase the Eagles, 'George can't take Mahathir a-a-anywhere, less'n he ain't already set to go.'

Holy shit! Economic policy kung fu! I think that's the most amazing analogy I've ever heard in my entire life. I wholeheartedly agree with what you've said. Bush's tax cuts are meant not only to stimulate the economy, but to win the hearts (and pocketbooks) of voters. Those who oppose Bush aren't going to suddenly change their minds when he gives them tax breaks. Their opposition, for the most part, stems from other policies, as some have already said. The war in Iraq, the reduction of our right to privacy, the interfering of a woman's right to choose: these are reasons for the opposition. As the article states, Bush's newest tax breaks are much harder to return, so what's the next best thing? Spend it on deposing Bush. Simple as that.

I wouldn't necessarily call it a commie conspiracy theory; Dr Matathir is not a communist. It is, however, Dr Matathir's way of deflecting blame for the economic results of his own autocratic mismanagement of Malaysia.

I'd point out that Warren Buffet, the billionaire CEO of investment firm Berkshire Hathaway, while not actively campaigning for Bush's defeat like Soros, has very harshly criticized Bush's tax policies, pointing out the fact that his secretary pays a much larger percentage of her income in tax than he does.

He also worked for Schwarzenegger, but was shut up when he made a real suggestion that might help California's economy, namely junking Proposition 13 and allowing property taxes to be raised. Oh well.

Re: the size of the deficits -

Yes, stockula, the deficit as a percentage of the GDP is comparable with that of the 1980s and 1990s, and %GDP is probably a fairer measure than absolute dollars (though that's still freakin' high). On the other hand, the *debt* as a %GDP is rising rather rapidly.

Well, he's a pretty successful capitalist. Not quite the same, but he's rich as sin.

Where Gross says "As an economic strategy, the tax cuts have plainly worked", I'd amend it to "As a short-term economic strategy, the tax cuts have plainly worked." The bill has yet to be paid.

This reminds me of the other day when i saw somebody driving around in a brand fucking new huge SUV with a "Support Howard Dean" bumper sticker. It made me smile in that ironic kind of way because it's a Dem driving something that all Dems should be against.

nice that one of the 'ultra rich' has stepped up and called some things what they are.

hal was right, it sounds like the economy isn't the reason for soros' desiring to oust (hahah... he said -Oust-) the shrub.

- Neoconservatives, Soros said, are exploiting the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, to promote a preexisting agenda of preemptive war and world dominion.

"Bush feels that on September 11th he was anointed by God," Soros said. "He's leading the U.S. and the world toward a vicious circle of escalating violence."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A24179-2003Nov10?language=printer

[ the p-rez really does say that god TOLD him to go get saddam... and his religious friend (forgot his name but he's one of the bigger evangelist types) talks of how bush "recognizes his role in the end times" etc

statements like that beg the question: are these people delusional?
or just talking out their asses? ]

interesting to see an official response to soros (same link as above):

"It's incredibly ironic that George Soros is trying to create a more open society by using an unregulated, under-the-radar-screen, shadowy, soft-money group to do it," Republican National Committee spokeswoman Christine Iverson said. "George Soros has purchased the Democratic Party."

immediately with the "unregulated" and "under the radar" and "shadowy"

- emotional 'set up' words to later transfer to the man himself, should he become a figurehead of the impeach bush scene -

( imagine her response had he donated the same amount to republican groups )

the spokeswoman's comment is brilliant in not responding to any of the stated reasons behind the man's contributions...

she ignores his accusations and turns the attention to purchasing the democratic party- a classic spin technique. good work there spokeswoman! like a robot.

( wondering how many times over the republican party has been purchased since you can get the dems for a cool 15 mil )

did Mr.S say he was trying to create a more open society?

nope. he said that the current white house is being guided by a supremicist ideology, america under bush is a danger to the world, and it reminds him of living under nazi and soviet rule- a big difference i'd say.


not super familiar here with billionaire soros or his actions and alliances~ but he's been making some needed waves in a variety of places where no un-rich person is taken seriously~ or even allowed to speak - and that kicks ass.


the tax cut thing... part of Gross's slate story is the gov lets us have a little bit more of our own money back so somehow people owe the shrub their "good fortune" and are feeling guilty about it. fun concept that, but kind of pointless.

people are probably feeling the tax cut matters- but maybe not as much as the millions of jobs lost in the last three years (you don't get much back when you can't find work) or our new preemptive war starting thing- which doesn't really make sense when combined with the tax cut..

the best part was near the end:

After all, the fiscal recklessness of the past few years means I'm highly unlikely to get the Social Security benefits to which I'm theoretically entitled. I also put a fraction of that sum in an account for my kids, who will have to foot the bill for this party when they grow up....

which is a small acknowledgment to the theme of one of the books he says those with anti-bush sentiment are buying with their tax refund windfalls:

The majority of Americans are funding the Bush Regime's tax giveaway to the super rich and they will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Under the Bush Regime's current fiscal policies, the elimination of social security, medicare, and other social services that most of us have paid for with payroll taxes is inevitable. The massive deficits generated by the Bush Regime's runaway spending will eventually result in large interest rate hikes whose consequences will include astronomical mortgage and credit card bills, and of course personal bankruptcy for many. These policies, in other words will break the back of the middle class financially, politically, and socially. Seen from that context they may be cruel and ruthless but they are not the product of stupidity.

Ultimately, Krugman argues, the only beneficiaries of the Bush Regime's economic policies will be a tiny minority of crony capitalists in very specific industries included but not limited to energy companies, auditing firms, and of course defense contractors. The rest of American businesses however can look forward to the flight of foreign investment capital in a manner that is comparable to the Asian economic crisis in the late 90s. Corporate scandals, according to Krugman, required an immediate push for justice and reform on the part of the executive branch of government not for moral reasons but to assure foreign investors that they could trust American companies with their money. But the Bush Regime is bound too tightly to known corporate criminals, according to Krugman and cannot implement the necessary punishments, checks and balances to make the system safe for investment again. This portends disastrous consequences for the American economy for years to come.

~amazon review of 'the great unraveling'

I don't have the educational background to offer an extremely insightful post on this topic but I think I can make an observation.
I live in British Columbia,Canada and the govement we currently have came to office promising to balance the budget and stimulate the economy by cutting taxes by 23%(?).
I'm not all that bright but even I realised that the only way this could be achieved is by massive cuts to social spending which of course is exactly what took place.Most of the government services have increased their fees and layed off large portions of their staff. Now the government is looking to privatise most services in order to meet their budget.
The tax cuts give me an extra $6 dollars every two weeks but I pay more than that in the the increasd medicare fees.The only people I see benifitting from this economic plan are those who make $80,000 + a year and they can only spend so much on themselves in the provinicial economy on direct material goods and services (food ,shelter ,getting the SUV fixed).The rest of their money is usually invested into the private economy where it is sheltered from taxes and is taken out of the provincial economy.
It's true that employment has gone up but the jobs that have been created are mostly part-time service industry jobs, not the thing that one can live on.Add to this a $6 dollar an hour training wage for the first 500 hours worked and you have a workforce whose majority lives below poverty level and has to spend almost all their earnings on meeting their basic needs.
The buisnesses that the government were counting on being lured here by cheaper operating costs havn't materialised and all that's happened is a race to the bottom for the majority of people and buisnesses that are already here.

totally Yawg...and extremely insightful.

the supposedly exploding economy and employment increases here are exactly what you are talking about: jobs in the service industry, temping, and savings made by getting rid of employees.

it is much easier to control an angry and lied-to population if they are busy trying to take care of their basic needs.


almost forgot, there are 2000 new jobs available- working on the Draft Board.

You know, just in case there's a draft...

and those would be non-paying volunteer jobs.

* * * *

Today's layoffs: 11/14/03

Where are all these jobs everyone (the media) is so ecstatic about?

http://www.vdare.com/guzzardi/chao.htm

Baltimore City Public School System Facing Massive Layoffs

http://www.btimes.com/News/article/article.asp?NewsID=34960&sID=4

Zhone completes merger, dumps workers

http://sanjose.bizjournals.com/sanjose/stories/2003/11/10/daily65.html

Adobe Systems cuts 3% of work force

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/ap/ap_story.html/Financial/AP.V7162.AP-Adobe-Job-Cuts.html

Job ends for civilian report technicians

http://www.wivb.com/Global/story.asp?S=1525871&nav=0RapJ8H3

Conference confronts Macon job losses

http://www.accessnorthga.com/news/ap_newfullstory.asp?ID=24244

Nineteen lose jobs at Boston Herald

http://www.timesdaily.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20031114/APF/311140937

Plant closings cost Salem 620 jobs

http://www.theworldlink.com/articles/2003/11/14/news/news11.txt

Berkshire Health Systems Cuts

http://www.capitalnews9.com/content/your_news/default.asp?ArID=47707

County Forces Unpaid Leave at SB Courts

http://www.ucsbdailynexus.com/news/2003/6091.html

Telemarketers Blame Layoffs on Do not Call Registry

http://www.ucsbdailynexus.com/news/2003/6091.html

Tyco Set to Cut 100 Jobs

http://www.bgdailynews.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi?/200311/14+tyco20031114_news.html+20031114+news

Vistakon completes layoffs with 279 Jax cuts

http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2003/11/10/daily33.html

Returning Troops Complain of Job Problems

http://www.nbc4.com/employment/2636233/detail.html

Police Budget Heading for the Red

http://www.sentinelandenterprise.com/Stories/0,1413,106~4992~1766750,00.html

Budget woes hammer state and local government jobs

http://www.mlive.com/news/aanews/index.ssf?/base/news-6/1068824510113360.xml

Hoover Lays off 30 salaried workers

http://www.morningjournal.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1699&dept_id=46377&newsid=10514236&PAG=461&rfi=9

Bechtel could lay off 200 by Jan. 31

http://www.tri-cityherald.com/tch/local/story/4375839p-4384050c.html

Wafer Plants Closing in Salem

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/business/1068815001294900.xml

Steelcase Inc - More Layoffs Possible

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0311140375nov14,1,5113811.story?coll=chi-business-hed

Big Bear stores to go up for auction

http://www.zanesvilletimesrecorder.com/news/stories/20031114/localnews/640298.html

Proposed job cutbacks stun Cleveland Police, Fire unions

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1068805886245050.xml

Cuts too depp for tasks at hand

http://www.nj.com/news/expresstimes/pa/index.ssf?/base/news-8/106880444228580.xml

Amid layoffs, CSX has $1-million for Super Bowl seats

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/11/14/Business/Amid_layoffs__CSX_has.shtml

Franklin Mint dismisses 200 workers from Suburban Center

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10512310&BRD=2212&PAG=461&dept_id=465812&rfi=6

Housing Authority Cuts Jobs

http://www.bouldernews.com/bdc/county_news/article/0,1713,BDC_2423_2427740,00.html

Cone cuts 190 Jobs at White Oak Mill

http://www.news-record.com/money/news/whiteoak_111403.htm

Layoffs Looming Large at Valley Crest

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=10511676&BRD=2259&PAG=461&dept_id=455154&rfi=6

Des Moines School Layoffs could affect 45

http://www.dmregister.com/news/stories/c4780927/22759582.html

Budget Cuts in Westchester to Force 236 Layoffs

http://tinyurl.com/v2nn

N.E. Acquarium to Lay off Staff

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/money/2633867/detail.html

Ahold consolidation could mean layoffs for Giant in Maryland

http://www.gazette.net/200346/business/news/187963-1.html

Mayor Campbell addresses layoff proposal

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/2635979/detail.html

Yesterday's figures don't look much better, but then, the AJC says: Jobless Claims Low Enough to Breed Optimism

http://www.ajc.com/business/content/business/1103/14jobless.html