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abbazappa

abbazappa

Sacramento, CA
June 2006

JUN 24, 2008 10:04 AM

The New York Times has published a interesting new article about close ties Obama has to the ethanol industry that brings up some interesting questions about if Obama really is a reformer and "new politics".


Obama camp closely linked with ethanol
Industry endorsed by candidate has provided some of his top advisers
By LARRY ROHTER
The New York Times
updated 6:19 a.m. PT, Mon., June. 23, 2008

When VeraSun Energy inaugurated a new ethanol processing plant last summer in Charles City, Iowa, some of that industry's most prominent boosters showed up. Leaders of the National Corn Growers Association and the Renewable Fuels Association, for instance, came to help cut the ribbon and so did Senator Barack Obama.

Then running far behind Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton in name recognition and in the polls, Mr. Obama was in the midst of a campaign swing through the state where he would eventually register his first caucus victory. And as befits a senator from Illinois, the country's second largest corn-producing state, he delivered a ringing endorsement of ethanol as an alternative fuel.

Mr. Obama is running as a reformer who is seeking to reduce the influence of special interests. But like any other politician, he has powerful constituencies that help shape his views. And when it comes to domestic ethanol, almost all of which is made from corn, he also has advisers and prominent supporters with close ties to the industry at a time when energy policy is a point of sharp contrast between the parties and their presidential candidates.

In the heart of the Corn Belt that August day, Mr. Obama argued that embracing ethanol "ultimately helps our national security, because right now we're sending billions of dollars to some of the most hostile nations on earth." America's oil dependence, he added, "makes it more difficult for us to shape a foreign policy that is intelligent and is creating security for the long term."

Links to Tom Daschle
Nowadays, when Mr. Obama travels in farm country, he is sometimes accompanied by his friend Tom Daschle, the former Senate majority leader from South Dakota. Mr. Daschle now serves on the boards of three ethanol companies and works at a Washington law firm where, according to his online job description, "he spends a substantial amount of time providing strategic and policy advice to clients in renewable energy."

Mr. Obama's lead advisor on energy and environmental issues, Jason Grumet, came to the campaign from the National Commission on Energy Policy, a bipartisan initiative associated with Mr. Daschle and Bob Dole the Kansas Republican who is also a former Senate majority leader and a big ethanol backer who had close ties to the agribusiness giant Archer-Daniels-Midland Co.

Not long after arriving in the Senate, Mr. Obama himself briefly provoked a controversy by flying at subsidized rates on corporate airplanes, including twice on jets owned by Archer Daniels Midland, which is the nation's largest ethanol producer and is based in his home state.

Jason Furman, the Obama campaign's economic policy director, said Mr. Obama's stance on ethanol was based on its merits. "That is what has always motivated him on this issue, and will continue to determine his policy going forward," Mr. Furman said.

Asked if Mr. Obama brought any predisposition or bias to the ethanol debate because he represents a corn-growing state that stands to benefit from a boom, Mr. Furman said, "He wants to represent the United States of America, and his policies are based on what's best for the country."

Mr. Daschle, a national co-chairman of the Obama campaign, said in a telephone interview on Friday that his role advising the Obama campaign on energy matters was limited. He said he was not a lobbyist for ethanol companies, but did speak publicly about renewable energy options and worked "with a number of associations and groups to orchestrate and coordinate their activities," including the Governors' Ethanol Coalition.

Of Mr. Obama, Mr. Daschle said, "He has a terrific policy staff and relies primarily on those key people to advise him on key issues, whether energy or climate change or other things."

Obama, McCain differ on subsidies
Ethanol is one area in which Mr. Obama strongly disagrees with his Republican opponent, Senator John McCain of Arizona. While both presidential candidates emphasize the need for the United States to achieve "energy security" while also slowing down the carbon emissions that are believed to contribute to global warming, they offer sharply different visions of the role that ethanol, which can be made from a variety of organic materials, should play in those efforts.

Mr. McCain advocates eliminating the multibillion-dollar annual government subsidies that domestic ethanol has long enjoyed. As a free trade advocate, he also opposes the 54-cent-a-gallon tariff that the United States slaps on imports of ethanol made from sugar cane, which packs more of an energy punch than corn-based ethanol and is cheaper to produce.

"We made a series of mistakes by not adopting a sustainable energy policy, one of which is the subsidies for corn ethanol, which I warned in Iowa were going to destroy the market" and contribute to inflation, Mr. McCain said this month in an interview with a Brazilian newspaper, O Estado de São Paulo. "Besides, it is wrong," he added, to tax Brazilian-made sugar cane ethanol, "which is much more efficient than corn ethanol."

Mr. Obama, in contrast, favors the subsidies, some of which end up in the hands of the same oil companies he says should be subjected to a windfall profits tax. In the name of helping the United States build "energy independence," he also supports the tariff, which some economists say may well be illegal under the World Trade Organization's rules but which his advisers say is not.

Many economists, consumer advocates, environmental experts and tax groups have been critical of corn ethanol programs as a boondoggle that benefits agribusiness conglomerates more than small farmers. Those complaints have intensified recently as corn prices have risen sharply in tandem with oil prices and corn normally used for food stock has been diverted to ethanol production.

"If you want to take some of the pressure off this market, the obvious thing to do is lower that tariff and let some Brazilian ethanol come in," said C. Ford Runge, an economist specializing in commodities and trade policy at the Center for International Food and Agricultural Policy at the University of Minnesota. "But one of the fundamental reasons biofuels policy is so out of whack with markets and reality is that interest group politics have been so dominant in the construction of the subsidies that support it."

Sugar cane more efficient
Corn ethanol generates less than two units of energy for every unit of energy used to produce it, while the energy ratio for sugar cane is more than 8 to 1. With lower production costs and cheaper land prices in the tropical countries where it is grown, sugar cane is a more efficient source.

Mr. Furman said the campaign continued to examine the issue. "We want to evaluate all our energy subsidies to make sure that taxpayers are getting their money's worth," he said.

He added that Mr. Obama favored "a range of initiatives" that were aimed at "diversification across countries and sources of energy," including cellulosic ethanol, and which, unlike Mr. McCain's proposals, were specifically meant to "reduce overall demand through conservation, new technology and improved efficiency."

On the campaign trail, Mr. Obama has not explained his opposition to imported sugar cane ethanol. But in remarks last year, made as President Bush was about to sign an ethanol cooperation agreement with his Brazilian counterpart, Mr. Obama argued that "our country's drive toward energy independence" could suffer if Mr. Bush relaxed restrictions, as Mr. McCain now proposes.

"It does not serve our national and economic security to replace imported oil with Brazilian ethanol," he argued.

Mr. Obama does talk regularly about developing switchgrass, which flourishes in the Midwest and Great Plains, as a source for ethanol. While the energy ratio for switchgrass and other types of cellulosic ethanol is much greater than corn, economists say that time-consuming investments in infrastructure would be required to make it viable, and with corn nearing $8 a bushel, farmers have little incentive to shift.

Ethanol industry executives and advocates have not made large donations to either candidate for president, an examination of campaign contribution records shows. But they have noted the difference between Mr. Obama and Mr. McCain.

Brian Jennings, a vice president of the American Coalition for Ethanol, said he hoped that Mr. McCain, as a presidential candidate, "would take a broader view of energy security and recognize the important role that ethanol plays."

The candidates' views were tested recently in the Farm Bill approved by Congress that extended the subsidies for corn ethanol, though reducing them slightly, and the tariffs on imported sugar cane ethanol. Because Mr. McCain and Mr. Obama were campaigning, neither voted. But Mr. McCain said that as president he would veto the bill, while Mr. Obama praised it.

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

JUN 24, 2008 10:14 AM

I have to ask . . .

So?

Gwylim

Gwylim

I'm lost
June 2008

JUN 24, 2008 10:33 AM

Unfortunate, doesn't look like either candidate has a very solid grasp on the ethanol issue...

The problem is pretty simple, if you burn food to provide energy, they'll be less food; and what's left will be more expensive. Corn is a basic staple in North American and the boost in it's price means that many people are eating less as a result.

The solution is also pretty simple, unless you're a politician. Cellulosic ethanol; which can be made from pretty much anything. Here in Ottawa we have a facility in it's test phase that converts garbage to ethanol, with no emissions, the only by-product is this shiny gravel-like material that can be used for making roads. That's right. Back to The Future is now. (although the plant cannot yet send a Delorean through time)

The problem for politicians, is that many of them have already jumped on the corn based ethanol band-wagon, making friends with company owners, and taking donations for their campaigns. Makes it much harder to upgrade your stance on ethanol despite what the science says.

It'll be an interesting debate to watch as November approaches.

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

JUN 24, 2008 10:38 AM

Gwylim said:
Unfortunate, doesn't look like either candidate has a very solid grasp on the ethanol issue...

The problem is pretty simple, if you burn food to provide energy, they'll be less food; and what's left will be more expensive. Corn is a basic staple in North American and the boost in it's price means that many people are eating less as a result.

The solution is also pretty simple, unless you're a politician. Cellulosic ethanol; which can be made from pretty much anything. Here in Ottawa we have a facility in it's test phase that converts garbage to ethanol, with no emissions, the only by-product is this shiny gravel-like material that can be used for making roads. That's right. Back to The Future is now. (although the plant cannot yet send a Delorean through time)

The problem for politicians, is that many of them have already jumped on the corn based ethanol band-wagon, making friends with company owners, and taking donations for their campaigns. Makes it much harder to upgrade your stance on ethanol despite what the science says.

It'll be an interesting debate to watch as November approaches.



Actually, the problem is that this events in the story happened nearly a year ago, and much has been learned about ethanol in that year. Also, what else was Obama supposed to do to get rural support in Iowa? Right now, farmers are seeing ethanol as pure gold. Around here, ethanol plants are springing up as fast as they can be built. Yes, it is now pretty general knowledge that corn ethanol is inefficiant and barely even a bandage.

As for the sugar cane version of ethanol . . . yes, it is much more efficiant as the byproduct of making it can be used as a fuel for the destilling process. But where in the U.S. can we grow sufficient amounts of sugar cane?

motorfirebox

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA
March 2004

JUN 24, 2008 10:44 AM

yeah. while importing foreign ethanol might work as a short-term way to lower gas prices--maybe--i don't think it's very wise to climb into the fire by way of getting out of the frying pan.

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

JUN 24, 2008 10:54 AM

motorfirebox said:
yeah. while importing foreign ethanol might work as a short-term way to lower gas prices--maybe--i don't think it's very wise to climb into the fire by way of getting out of the frying pan.



If I remember correctly, ethanol doesn't travel very well over long distances in tanks. It degrades too quickly.

RudieCantFail

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA
January 2006

JUN 24, 2008 12:38 PM

coyotemike said:
As for the sugar cane version of ethanol . . . yes, it is much more efficiant as the byproduct of making it can be used as a fuel for the destilling process. But where in the U.S. can we grow sufficient amounts of sugar cane?



Louisiana, if we could unhinge my state from the clutches of big oil.

Gwylim

Gwylim

I'm lost
June 2008

JUN 24, 2008 12:40 PM



Actually, the problem is that this events in the story happened nearly a year ago, and much has been learned about ethanol in that year. Also, what else was Obama supposed to do to get rural support in Iowa?



And that's the main problem, a bad renewable energy idea is now directly tied to political support in the Midwest. The only way out of that as far as I can see it is to offer governments grants to farmers that want to grow a non-food crop for ethanol production like hemp seed, but then what do you do with all the ethanol plants already setup for corn? Very expensive to back the political ethanol train up at this point and there's a lot of people on board.



yeah. while importing foreign ethanol might work as a short-term way to lower gas prices--maybe--i don't think it's very wise to climb into the fire by way of getting out of the frying pan.



This is the beauty of the plasma gasification plants (things that turn garbage to ethanol). Every city has garbage, most have huge stockpiles of it in landfills, so no energy needs to be wasted transporting either the fuel, or the source of it.

The company running the PGP here in Ottawa is Plasco, I spoke to the owner about a year ago for an article I was writing on th plant for a local paper. Fascinating technology, unless of course your a corn farmer. The only thing you can't convert to ethanol with this process is nuclear waste.

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

JUN 24, 2008 12:44 PM

RudieCantFail said:

coyotemike said:
As for the sugar cane version of ethanol . . . yes, it is much more efficiant as the byproduct of making it can be used as a fuel for the destilling process. But where in the U.S. can we grow sufficient amounts of sugar cane?



Louisiana, if we could unhinge my state from the clutches of big oil.



Wouldn't be enough. Suger cane ethanol has a higher output per acre, but Louisiana simply doesn't have enough room. Then you have the problem of degradation during shipping.

RudieCantFail

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA
January 2006

JUN 24, 2008 12:49 PM

coyotemike said:

RudieCantFail said:

coyotemike said:
As for the sugar cane version of ethanol . . . yes, it is much more efficiant as the byproduct of making it can be used as a fuel for the destilling process. But where in the U.S. can we grow sufficient amounts of sugar cane?



Louisiana, if we could unhinge my state from the clutches of big oil.



Wouldn't be enough. Suger cane ethanol has a higher output per acre, but Louisiana simply doesn't have enough room. Then you have the problem of degradation during shipping.



You could include the gulf coast areas of East Texas, Mississippi, Alabama, and Florida as well, I think. That may still not be enough for national needs, but I don't think we can really count on any one source to solve our oil addiction. At best, it could help swing a voting bloc that's fearful of losing the jobs that oil provides to the region, by giving them an alternative industry that their skills could be easily translated to.

felony187

felony187

Denver, CO
June 2007

JUN 24, 2008 01:25 PM

What about switch grass? Da prez was all hot and bothered about it two years ago, oh yeah it must of been a joke. bush trying to get off big oil 's teet.
The answer is regional crop's that are suitable for ethanol. And maybe it would take a brave leader to suggest ,that maybe it would be okay to grow more hemp for this purpose.
Alaska may have to be on oil only and I'm sure stock's okay with that. But regional solutions are going to be the answer.

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

JUN 24, 2008 01:30 PM

felony187 said:
What about switch grass? Da prez was all hot and bothered about it two years ago, oh yeah it must of been a joke. bush trying to get off big oil 's teet.
The answer is regional crop's that are suitable for ethanol. And maybe it would take a brave leader to suggest ,that maybe it would be okay to grow more hemp for this purpose.
Alaska may have to be on oil only and I'm sure stock's okay with that. But regional solutions are going to be the answer.



Does switch grass have a usable by-product? The mash from corn ethanol can be used as cattle feed, and whatever is left from sugar-cane ethanol can actually be used to power the plant.

motorfirebox

motorfirebox

Pittsburgh, PA
March 2004

JUN 24, 2008 01:38 PM

Switchgrass

i don't see any mention of useable byproduct, but there do seem to be a number of other advantages--mainly related to the fact that switchgrass is very hardy and requires little maintenance or care to grow. there's some debate regarding whether you get more energy out of switchgrass biofuel than you expend to grow, harvest, and process it.

felony187

felony187

Denver, CO
June 2007

JUN 24, 2008 01:42 PM

coyotemike said:

felony187 said:
What about switch grass? Da prez was all hot and bothered about it two years ago, oh yeah it must of been a joke. bush trying to get off big oil 's teet.
The answer is regional crop's that are suitable for ethanol. And maybe it would take a brave leader to suggest ,that maybe it would be okay to grow more hemp for this purpose.
Alaska may have to be on oil only and I'm sure stock's okay with that. But regional solutions are going to be the answer.



Does switch grass have a usable by-product? The mash from corn ethanol can be used as cattle feed, and whatever is left from sugar-cane ethanol can actually be used to power the plant.

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html
Here is a little more info. It could be used for livestock feed. But it is actually a very useful product. Check it......or paste it I can't get it to autolink.

AceT

AceT

Portland, OR
April 2004

JUN 24, 2008 01:54 PM

Nice little hit job there, but Obama has always pushed for cellulosic biofuels, which uses waste and not vital parts of crops.

From his website

Support Next Generation Biofuels

Deploy Cellulosic Ethanol: Obama will invest federal resources, including tax incentives, cash prizes and government contracts into developing the most promising technologies with the goal of getting the first two billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol into the system by 2013.



I've railed on ethanol in previous threads as evil, but only if it's taken from edible grain. If you use switchgrass, which doesn't require any pesticides or excess energy to grow, algae, or the waste products of corn that aren't edible then it's a perfectly viable biofuel without rising food costs, diminshing the food supply, or causing any of the dangers McCain or other naysayers are warning about.

scylis

scylis

USA
November 2004

JUN 24, 2008 01:57 PM

motorfirebox said:
Switchgrass

i don't see any mention of useable byproduct, but there do seem to be a number of other advantages--mainly related to the fact that switchgrass is very hardy and requires little maintenance or care to grow. there's some debate regarding whether you get more energy out of switchgrass biofuel than you expend to grow, harvest, and process it.



i believe switchgrass ethanol development is still in its infancy. plus, recent test plots seems to point to massively larger energy output than what is required to be put into it.

source
source
a .pdf of Schmer, Vogel, Mitchel, and Perrin's finding from their study

felony187

felony187

Denver, CO
June 2007

JUN 24, 2008 01:57 PM

And by the way who gives a fuck about Obama being tied to BIG CORN.

Coyotemike

Coyotemike

USA
May 2006

JUN 24, 2008 01:58 PM

felony187 said:
And by the way who gives a fuck about Obama being tied to BIG CORN.



People who want to say "gotcha" to Obama supporters.

scylis

scylis

USA
November 2004

JUN 24, 2008 01:58 PM

felony187 said:

coyotemike said:

felony187 said:
What about switch grass? Da prez was all hot and bothered about it two years ago, oh yeah it must of been a joke. bush trying to get off big oil 's teet.
The answer is regional crop's that are suitable for ethanol. And maybe it would take a brave leader to suggest ,that maybe it would be okay to grow more hemp for this purpose.
Alaska may have to be on oil only and I'm sure stock's okay with that. But regional solutions are going to be the answer.



Does switch grass have a usable by-product? The mash from corn ethanol can be used as cattle feed, and whatever is left from sugar-cane ethanol can actually be used to power the plant.

link
Here is a little more info. It could be used for livestock feed. But it is actually a very useful product. Check it......or paste it I can't get it to autolink.



fixed.

it bugged me.

felony187

felony187

Denver, CO
June 2007

JUN 24, 2008 01:59 PM

ARRR!!!

felony187

felony187

Denver, CO
June 2007

JUN 24, 2008 02:02 PM

coyotemike said:

felony187 said:
And by the way who gives a fuck about Obama being tied to BIG CORN.



People who want to say "gotcha" to Obama supporters.



Maybe we can send all those people to Rhodesia, and you know ,see what happens.

felony187

felony187

Denver, CO
June 2007

JUN 24, 2008 02:14 PM

scylis said:

felony187 said:

coyotemike said:

felony187 said:
What about switch grass? Da prez was all hot and bothered about it two years ago, oh yeah it must of been a joke. bush trying to get off big oil 's teet.
The answer is regional crop's that are suitable for ethanol. And maybe it would take a brave leader to suggest ,that maybe it would be okay to grow more hemp for this purpose.
Alaska may have to be on oil only and I'm sure stock's okay with that. But regional solutions are going to be the answer.



Does switch grass have a usable by-product? The mash from corn ethanol can be used as cattle feed, and whatever is left from sugar-cane ethanol can actually be used to power the plant.

link
Here is a little more info. It could be used for livestock feed. But it is actually a very useful product. Check it......or paste it I can't get it to autolink.



fixed.

it bugged me.



Thank you

Stiles

Stiles

Oakland, CA
November 2002

JUN 24, 2008 02:41 PM

This is a non-issue.

scylis

scylis

USA
November 2004

JUN 24, 2008 02:47 PM

Stiles said:
This is a non-issue.



why do you hate America?

Varuka_Salt

Varuka_Salt

I'm lost
October 2006

JUN 24, 2008 02:56 PM

So, I don't know how many of you are from Illinois, or been through it, but outside of Chicago and the other large cities, the entire state is mostly corn.

So what the OP is saying, is that Obama has been representing his constituents. I believe, that is the major portion of his job description.

The problem there is?



Green crude.

This also offers an incredible renewable energy resource that will require almost zero change to our current refining and distribution networks, or our engines. There are pilot plants being built right now that expect to be able to provide automotive fuel for $1.34 a gallon in the next 2 years or less.

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