Bush and France

(sorry for my english)
In France we can't support Bush but we don't understand him. A biographer says he was addict with alcool and after meet Jesus. We are secularist in France ; if our president speak about Bible , we will go to the streets and scream .
I know american constitution speak about Holy Bible.. I don't want to hurt everyone but how can you do ? I'm atheist and I know lots of american people aren't. But how can a country believe to God ? It is a personal choice, isn't it ? If a consitution is christian (ofwhatever), tomorrow I can say it is inspired by god, we're always right and what we do is always the best.

President of USA can now say ; "I belive in god, he loves me, so I'm always right. I can send young american people in Iraki, just for oil and says I want to save iraki people. I will go to afghan country so save people from taliban."
What a fuck ! Who will believe that ? Afghan people were with taliban more than 4 years. Now there are so many problems. My aunt came as doctor in the country and she felt so bad ; rapes, murders. Nothing changed.

You know it is really strange for a french girl. Clinton has so many problem for a sex thing. In France it can't happen because all our politics have sex relations ! and GWB, which is maybe a good husband, I don't know and that's not my problem is dangerous, racist and he stays as president ? I don't understand. really not.

and I'm thinking I will have problems with this post

[Edited on Oct 29, 2003 by mathilde74]

Firstly, our constitution doesn’t talk about religion. Except once in the first amendment, which says the state can’t support a religion, nor can it hinder it. Never the less, most of the people in America are very religious and our leaders sometimes speak about things in religious terms because it is expected of them.

Secondly, President Bush is as popular as he is, only because we are in a war. Americans don’t generally like to criticize the government during emergencies, so many people say them support him even if they don’t agree with him.

There is a good chance that he won’t be president after the 2004 elections.

I hope this helps out.

Actually, what the US constitution says is that american citizens are free to practice whatever religion they want, and that the government can't make any laws concerning religion. Besides that, the guys who wrote the constitution stated pretty clearly that religion and government should remain as completely separate as possible.

But in spite of that, only about 10% of american citizens call themselves athiests, and a large portion of the remaining 90% would, in europe, be considered fundamentalists. Atheism is considered a radical position here. So any politician who wants to have a realistic chance of getting elected has to rant about how religious he is, whether it's true or not.

I'm an atheist, but I've read the bible and I can tell you that the more a politician claims to love jesus, the less of a genuine christian he is likely to be. I don't know why christian americans can't see this for themselves.

As for bush: I know he's lying, and everyone I know knows he's lying, and it's very easy to prove he's lying, and I have friends in the army, navy, and marines, and I am very fucking pissed about this whole middle-east situation. But I live in one of the most liberal cities in the country, so I can't really speak for anyone else, and I'm not sure why people elsewhere buy his bullshit. I believe that america's gullibility has its roots in the hyper-capitalist reaction to the cold war, but unless you want me to get into it, I'll save it for another time...

Yeah, the clinton/bush thing is strange for an american boy, too. Lying about consensual sex vs. lying about why my friends should go die... guess which one earns impeachment in the USA? It blows my mind.

Ok thanks for precisions I saw Bush on tv says "god bless you". It is impoossible in France. Our prime minister went in Italy to see the Pope and we consider that very bad

I have saw there are laws against sodomy or homosexuality in some estates ; aren't they based on religion ?

Coliwali : you say "we are in war". But who is in war ? USA ? Bush decide to go in Iraki. USA have not be attacked by Iraki so I think americian people have to say stop to all that bull shit. I think 213 young american are dead since may in Iraki... And for what ? just for nothing.

coughee : I have problems with capitalism that's why maybe you can read my strange reaction .

Personally I agree. We were not seriously threatened by Iraq and our attack against them was irresponsible at best. My opinion is the minority opinion in America.

You *shouldn't* have problems with this post... everything you discuss makes perfect sense.

By the way, your English is much better than my French!

My opinion is the minority opinion in America

Coliwali, I saw on TV lot of american people think Saddam Hussein is reponsible from 11th september. Is that true ? I don't understand... They have to say themselves "how can he do ?" he was on embargo (correct word ?).

the eral problme for USA is fundamentalists which are in Saubi Arabia... And I think some american people still have contracts with these country.

Saddam Hussein was not a "real muslim" until two or three years... He used to drink and did'nt have a good attitude (if you think as a fundamentalist !). All fundamentalists hate him and he thougjt he was threatened by them : so he became to be a good muslim. But it is very very recent (two years I think).

Was is dangerous for USA ? yes He hates them because he studies a lot stalinism and so on. Not because he has relations ships whith fundamentalists !

robinbanks : you are cute but you are lying . My english is horrible !

Well... at least I'm cute haha.

boys are all the same.. they only read what they want

haha... you're absolutely right. I'm off to bed to dream of French women.

just begin dreaming with this french actress.... good dreams

Behold my not editing processes.

[Edited on Oct 29, 2003 by Frank]

I suppose I shouls say that in my interpretation of the document, "make no law respecting an establishment of religion" means make no laws about religion at all, ever, in any way. But that also doesn't mean a politician can't hold strong religous views and publicly espouse these views. It just means he can't pass laws specifically supporting or denying a religion.

If it's an urban legend, Thomas Jefferson started it...
"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State"
And that wasn't the only time he mentioned it, by a long shot... TJ and the boys were pretty well hopped up on the idea.

whoa! Only joking about the "french women" comment.
I should've put a after that comment but I was just too tired to think. However, I wish I could escape this recurring nightmare that's been haunting me. Dreaming about that actress would be a sweet relief!

Like others said, the US is a religious country, and many people wont vote for someone who isn't Christian (or white, or male). It's an unspoken requirement to be a church-going Christian if you want to be the president. That's just how it is here. Just as the French eat snails, let their children drink wine, and place low importance on personal hygiene, large areas of the US are Jesus freaks. We're just different cultures, France and the US.

All presidents say "God bless you" at the end of big speeches. The currency has the US motto "In God We Trust". That motto is less about following God than an understanding how fallible all men are.

You have to realize the French media, elites, and government really hate George Bush. They'd hate him even if he wasn't a Christian, that's just something extra they can ridicule him on. Bill Clinton made sure he went to church every Sunday and was seen carrying his Bible out on tv, as did Al Gore. I dont think the French would criticize Clinton or Gore about that. Jimmy Carter was a religious man, and he was mocked for speaking about his spirituality in a Playboy Magazine interview.



[Edited on Oct 30, 2003 by stockula]

Robin , I know you were jocking do not worry

stockula : I don't eat snails, I don't drink wine ; am I french

That's false. Republican people in France just love Bush. I'm on a board in France (if you speak french, it will be interesting for you, there are a lot of american people who are coming on this board, they understand french but speak in english. They always remeber WW2 and the incoming in France of american soldiers. I just read a post on a french board which says : "go W go". You are a wonderful president and so on .

There are two ideas in my post
- how much religion is important in USA ? it is an idea I just can't understand as an atheist
- What do you think about Bush.

I just hate my president too you know... because he is a coward, a liar and has stolen money in France.

In France, after the 11th september, there was REALLY anti-americanism, totally stupid and horrible. That's true.

But since may 2003, there are two sorts of people pro Bush and anti Bush in France. And in politics, theer are some guys who just like Bush and his politic.

cool

ughh.. I think *some* French people are justified in their *criticisms* of George Bush.. easy way to ignore the substance of those criticisms but simplifying them under the umbrella of "hate." Also, it's a safe assumption that criticism of Bush goes beyond the "elites."

ahh.. poor George.. those French elites really hate him!

[Edited on Oct 31, 2003 by robinbanks]

I dont think "hate" is too strong a word. This blog shows how the mainstream French media and French government perceive Bush and the US. The rancor and animosity is frankly quite shocking. The editorial catoons show GLEE at US casualties, these are cartoons that go right on the front page of Le Monde. Anyway, I read this blog every day.

http://merdeinfrance.blogspot.com/

1)Thomas Jefferson had no direct influence on the 1st amendment. He was in France when the bill of rights was being drafted.
2)The first documented mention of a "wall of separation between Church and State" that I've ever seen or found was in a response to the Danbury Baptist association in which they were expressing worries that the government, under the leadership of religious politicians, would punish people for their beliefs. His response was that (and I'm paraphrasing) he agreed that people were free in their beliefs, and that the amendment protected people from being punished on the basis of faith ("the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions" from the letter in question). The subject of the letter was the punitive and legislative powers of goverment, not the entire interaction of religion and government. He wasn't saying that government and religion were completely separated, he was saying that they were separated such that man could not be held to account for his beliefs. Further, this was 11 years *after* the bill of rights (which he had no direct influence on) was passed.

You're right though, TJ did start it, as that's what (from my understanding) the supreme court decision that established it was based on.

My own interpretation is that the first amendment was meant to be interpretted as restricting the government from *establishing any religion* or passing any laws that restricted anyone else from exercising their religious beliefs. Not that I'm really complaining, I'm just as happy as anyone to see religion and government separated.

[Edited on Oct 31, 2003 by Helter]

I assume something that translates as 'Shit In France' is really unbiased in the way things are presented...to be honest the US attitude towards the French and the way they are treated by the US media is what is truly shocking.

Hey WaTed, if you could give me examples of how the French are treated badly in the New York Times, Washington Post, Wall Street Journal or CNN, I might take your snarky little comment seriously. Elite media types in the US love the French. All that blogger does is open France's biggest papers and translates choice articles into English. He doesn't seem to be fond of the French, but since he's lived in France for 20 years, maybe there's a reason for that.

haha..

New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman (September 18, 2003):

"It's time we Americans came to terms with something: France is not just our annoying ally. It is not just our jealous rival. France is becoming our enemy."


[Edited on Oct 31, 2003 by robinbanks]