Whereas nothing in this resolution shall be construed as an authorization of the use of force against Iran: Now, therefore, be it
Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring), That Congress--
(1) declares that preventing Iran from acquiring a nuclear weapons capability, through all appropriate economic, political, and diplomatic means, is vital to the national security interests of the United States and must be dealt with urgently;
(2) urges the President, in the strongest of terms, to immediately use his existing authority to impose sanctions on--
(A) the Central Bank of Iran and any other Iranian bank engaged in proliferation activities or the support of terrorist groups;
(B) international banks which continue to conduct financial transactions with proscribed Iranian banks;
(C) energy companies that have invested $20,000,000 or more in the Iranian petroleum or natural gas sector in any given year since the enactment of the Iran Sanctions Act of 1996; and
(D) all companies which continue to do business with Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps;
(3) demands that the President initiate an international effort to immediately and dramatically increase the economic, political, and diplomatic pressure on Iran to verifiably suspend its nuclear enrichment activities by, inter alia, prohibiting the export to Iran of all refined petroleum products; imposing stringent inspection requirements on all persons, vehicles, ships, planes, trains, and cargo entering or departing Iran; and prohibiting the international movement of all Iranian officials not involved in negotiating the suspension of Iran's nuclear program; and
(4) urges the President to lead a sustained, serious, and forceful effort at regional diplomacy to support the legitimate governments in the region against Iranian efforts to destabilize them, to reassure our friends and allies that the United States supports them in their resistance to Iranian efforts at hegemony, and to make clear to the Government of Iran that the United States will protect America's vital national security interests in the Middle East.
coyotemike said:
Would you care to explain how this would be an act of war?
inter alia, prohibiting the export to Iran of all refined petroleum products; imposing stringent inspection requirements on all persons, vehicles, ships, planes, trains, and cargo entering or departing Iran; and prohibiting the international movement of all Iranian officials not involved in negotiating the suspension of Iran's nuclear program; and cargo entering or departing Iran; and prohibiting the international movement of all Iranian officials not involved in negotiating the suspension of Iran's nuclear program; and
and cargo entering or departing Iran; and prohibiting the international movement of all Iranian officials not involved in negotiating the suspension of Iran's nuclear program; and
This is referred to as a blockade. It is often considered an act of war.
"The International Criminal Court plans to include blockades against coasts and ports in its list of acts of war in 2009."
I'm looking all through the ICC, and nowhere do they have a list of "acts of war." And since they are concerned only with a very certain set of war crimes, they have no reason to make a list of acts of war.
coyotemike said:
I'm looking all through the ICC, and nowhere do they have a list of "acts of war." And since they are concerned only with a very certain set of war crimes, they have no reason to make a list of acts of war.
coyotemike said:
I'm looking all through the ICC, and nowhere do they have a list of "acts of war." And since they are concerned only with a very certain set of war crimes, they have no reason to make a list of acts of war.
Perhaps the list hasn't been released yet. The wikipedia article mentioned it as being in 2009. Anyway that's besides the point.
Not really. Acts of war are very specific actions; invading a country, attacking a warship or protectorate of a nation, etc. I could not find any past lists of acts of war, let alone an updated one. You are stipulating a blockade as an act of war, using a specific source (wikipedia) to justify that designation.
coyotemike said:
I'm looking all through the ICC, and nowhere do they have a list of "acts of war." And since they are concerned only with a very certain set of war crimes, they have no reason to make a list of acts of war.
Perhaps the list hasn't been released yet. The wikipedia article mentioned it as being in 2009. Anyway that's besides the point.
Not really. Acts of war are very specific actions; invading a country, attacking a warship or protectorate of a nation, etc. I could not find any past lists of acts of war, let alone an updated one. You are stipulating a blockade as an act of war, using a specific source (wikipedia) to justify that designation.
Ok let's think here for a minute. Suppose China declared it was going to use its military to forcibly inspect all cargo and persons entering or leaving the United States. Are you seriously contending this would not be seen as an act of war?
coyotemike said:
I'm looking all through the ICC, and nowhere do they have a list of "acts of war." And since they are concerned only with a very certain set of war crimes, they have no reason to make a list of acts of war.
Perhaps the list hasn't been released yet. The wikipedia article mentioned it as being in 2009. Anyway that's besides the point.
Not really. Acts of war are very specific actions; invading a country, attacking a warship or protectorate of a nation, etc. I could not find any past lists of acts of war, let alone an updated one. You are stipulating a blockade as an act of war, using a specific source (wikipedia) to justify that designation.
Ok let's think here for a minute. Suppose China declared it was going to use its military to forcibly inspect all cargo and persons entering or leaving the United States. Are you seriously contending this would not be seen as an act of war?
we're discussing legal terms, not how things would be seen.
bald_eagle said:
I checked the link. I didn't see where it calls on anyone to interfere with Iranian trade. It calls on the president to
initiate an international effort to immediately and dramatically increase the economic, political, and diplomatic pressure on Iran ... by, inter alia, prohibiting the export to Iran of all refined petroleum products; imposing stringent inspection requirements on all persons, vehicles, ships, planes, trains, and cargo entering or departing Iran; and prohibiting the international movement of all Iranian officials not involved in negotiating the suspension of Iran's nuclear program
(emphasis mine)
It's more like trying to negotiate a boycott with the other countries. It does not suggest that the U.S. send the Navy to blockade their ports.
Also note the statement,
nothing in this resolution shall be construed as an authorization of the use of force against Iran
"imposing stringent inspection requirements on all persons, vehicles, ships, planes, trains, and cargo entering or departing Iran; and prohibiting the international movement of all Iranian officials not involved in negotiating the suspension of Iran's nuclear program"
What method could you invision of doing this short of a blockade?
As far as military force, what do you think is going to happen when ships departing Iranian ports are ordered to submit to inspection by US and/or international forces?
Restricting egress from the country is far beyond a boycott.
One would think killing American soldiers, supplying proxy wars against a major ally, defying the UN and seizing one's embassy is an act of war. The bellicose party is Iran. They should have been neutralized a long time ago.
One would think killing American soldiers, supplying proxy wars against a major ally, defying the UN and seizing one's embassy is an act of war. The bellicose party is Iran. They should have been neutralized a long time ago.
So now you think defying the UN is cause bellus?
The embassy was seized over 20 years ago. I'm not sure what you are referring to as far as killing US soldiers.
And maybe an ally that constantly requires us to defend them isn't worth having an alliance with.
One would think killing American soldiers, supplying proxy wars against a major ally, defying the UN and seizing one's embassy is an act of war. The bellicose party is Iran. They should have been neutralized a long time ago.
So now you think defying the UN is cause bellus?
The embassy was seized over 20 years ago. I'm not sure what you are ferring to as far as killing US soldiers.
And maybe an ally that constantly requires us to defend them isn't worth having an alliance with.
I don't think it, it is. Iraq was invaded because they defied the UN.
Soldiers killed refers to the barracks bombing in Beruit, the Khobar towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, and the hundreds of soldiers in Iraq killed by Iranians, or Iraqis trained and equipped by Iranians.
If we abandon allies due to thugs challenging us, what message would that send to the rest of our allies, and more importantly, what message would it send to our enemies?
Iran is a fucker, it's true. and we could probably beat them fairly handily--though an upset like Israel vs Hamas '06 isn't out of the question.
but winning--actually winning, not declaring 'mission complete'--would be a long, costly process. i'm not sure anyone has the political capital to make that happen, and i know that almost nobody wants us to try.
One would think killing American soldiers, supplying proxy wars against a major ally, defying the UN and seizing one's embassy is an act of war. The bellicose party is Iran. They should have been neutralized a long time ago.
So now you think defying the UN is cause bellus?
The embassy was seized over 20 years ago. I'm not sure what you are ferring to as far as killing US soldiers.
And maybe an ally that constantly requires us to defend them isn't worth having an alliance with.
Soldiers killed refers to the barracks bombing in Beruit, the Khobar towers bombing in Saudi Arabia, and the hundreds of soldiers in Iraq killed by Iranians, or Iraqis trained and equipped by Iranians.
If we abandon allies due to thugs challenging us, what message would that send to the rest of our allies, and more importantly, what message would it send to our enemies?
First off, those bombings were carried out by Al Qaeda, which is a synni outfit, and the enemy of shiite iran.
Perhaps you forget that the whole reaason Saddam had WMDS in the first place was because we gave them to him when he was warring with Iran.
If we pursued a foreign policy of non-interventionism, the message it would send is "we have no interest in meddling in the affairs of other nations" You don't see too many terrorist attacks in switzerland.
non-interventionism is impossible. we're dug into global politics too deeply to back out, and i don't think we'd have a place in the world that would arise if we did.
bald_eagle said:
I checked the link. I didn't see where it calls on anyone to interfere with Iranian trade. It calls on the president to
initiate an international effort to immediately and dramatically increase the economic, political, and diplomatic pressure on Iran ... by, inter alia, prohibiting the export to Iran of all refined petroleum products; imposing stringent inspection requirements on all persons, vehicles, ships, planes, trains, and cargo entering or departing Iran; and prohibiting the international movement of all Iranian officials not involved in negotiating the suspension of Iran's nuclear program
(emphasis mine)
It's more like trying to negotiate a boycott with the other countries. It does not suggest that the U.S. send the Navy to blockade their ports.
Also note the statement,
nothing in this resolution shall be construed as an authorization of the use of force against Iran
"imposing stringent inspection requirements on all persons, vehicles, ships, planes, trains, and cargo entering or departing Iran; and prohibiting the international movement of all Iranian officials not involved in negotiating the suspension of Iran's nuclear program"
What method could you invision of doing this short of a blockade?
As far as military force, what do you think is going to happen when ships departing Iranian ports are ordered to submit to inspection by US and/or international forces?
Restricting egress from the country is far beyond a boycott.
If it passes, and if an international coalition agrees to take measures that include something like a blockade, then there might be something to worry about.
Right now, I don't think Bush could get an international consensus on the proposition that rain is wet.
But he very much wants to go after Iran, and he could do so unilaterally. The international part is not a restricitve condition, by my reading of the bill.
motorfirebox said:
non-interventionism is impossible. we're dug into global politics too deeply to back out, and i don't think we'd have a place in the world that would arise if we did.
That;s always the argument. We;re in too deep. But it's not like we can stand still. Interventionism has consequences. To deal with those consequences, the only solution seems to be more interventionism. Where does it end?
I think that you are interpreting this bill as authorizing a literal and physical blockade of relevant goods into Iran, which does not appear to be the intended resolution. I think you are justified in posting this as a news story of importance, but the title of the OP is not accurate.
This bill would not constitute an act of war because it does not require a physical blockade to enforce the resolution. The language of the bill seems to suggest that we would be suspending Iran's ability to acquire shipments through non military methods ("...through all appropriate economic, political, and diplomatic means..."), which could include refusing to allow them to trade in dollars, impose sanctions on American companies investing in Iran, etc.
A key passage in the text says: "Whereas nothing in this resolution shall be construed as an authorization of the use of force against Iran..."
LSlice
Montclair, NJ
December 2007
JUN 22, 2008 08:31 AM