TOPICS:
MAY 20, 2008 06:24 AM
I don't think it is a chauvinistic at all. Partners, spouses, take care of each other and defend each other. FTR, what does your wife do when someone badmouths you in her presence? I bet it ain't pretty.
The GOP is dropping. They've lost a good portion of the Christian base. They've lost most moderate conservatives. All they have left are the bigoted, the sexist, the racist, and the intellectual lightweights known as the "good ole boys." And the only ammuntion they have in their arsenal is old fashioned character slander. They can't compete on intellectual matters, they can't compete on social matters, hell they can't even compete on moral matters.
The era of the smooth-talking, self-serving, boys'-club politician is over. It is time for the tough, intellectual, people-serving politician.
And it's about damn time.

Quirky
Birmingham, AL
October 2005
MAY 20, 2008 06:41 AM
coyotemike said:
All they have left are the bigoted, the sexist, the racist, and the intellectual lightweights known as the "good ole boys." And the only ammuntion they have in their arsenal is old fashioned character slander. They can't compete on intellectual matters, they can't compete on social matters, hell they can't even compete on moral matters.
This is the textbook definition of a troll.
MAY 20, 2008 08:12 AM
Good for Obama. Though I doubt it will be as important as FTR would like to think.
MAY 20, 2008 09:23 AM
Did McCain really say those things to his wife? I mean really? Wow, I'd only say that kind of thing to Ann Coulter or Countess Bathory or some other irredeemably evil bitch...and even then I think I'd probably say it in the nicest way possible.
Gee, some chicks sure know how to pick 'em.
MAY 20, 2008 09:30 AM
Mr_Matt_ said:
Good for Obama. Though I doubt it will be as important as FTR would like to think.
Agreed. I hope it is, but I've seen a lot of amazingly eloquent speeches Obama has made while surfing the net, and I really had to look for them. Whenever you turn on the TV, all you get is the Reverend Wright bullshit or his "god and guns" thing instead of speeches like this.
Only in this county can you get attacked for being intelligent and actually tackling the REAL issues.
MAY 20, 2008 09:41 AM
Believe it or not, as much as I huff and puff around here, I'm generally a very peaceful guy. I can count the fights I've been in in my life on one hand and still have enough fingers left over to go bowling. Someone messes with my wife or kids, the transformation the Hulk goes through will look like caterpillar to butterfly in comparison. I believe if you DON'T have this reaction, weather you are male or female, there is something wrong in your relationship. Now, I don't mean to say every time someone looks at your wife you should beat the shit out of them, but there are definitely situations where the risk of a battery charge may be called for.
I also wouldn't have called myself one of the Obama groupies. I just thought he was OK, least worst. After seeing that, I'm sold. That's the most truthful, straight from the gut talk I have EVER in my entire life heard come out of the mouth of a politician.
MAY 20, 2008 09:42 AM
Right on! And I don't think there's anything chauvinistic about a man defending a woman he cares about, just as there is nothing emasculating about a woman defending a man she cares about.

livertarian
Fairfax, VA
February 2008
MAY 20, 2008 10:03 AM
brandxofttl said:
Mr_Matt_ said:
Good for Obama. Though I doubt it will be as important as FTR would like to think.
Agreed. I hope it is, but I've seen a lot of amazingly eloquent speeches Obama has made while surfing the net, and I really had to look for them. Whenever you turn on the TV, all you get is the Reverend Wright bullshit or his "god and guns" thing instead of speeches like this.
Only in this county can you get attacked for being intelligent and actually tackling the REAL issues.
I will respectfully argue that Obama ducks real issues as well as any politician who aspires to be President. If the argument is desired, anyway, I will see it through. No doubt, though, the guy has more class and style by far than anyone else on the trail. I got burned voting for a rock star in '92, so this time I am more skeptical.
MAY 20, 2008 10:39 AM
livertarian said:
I will respectfully argue that Obama ducks real issues as well as any politician who aspires to be President. If the argument is desired, anyway, I will see it through. No doubt, though, the guy has more class and style by far than anyone else on the trail. I got burned voting for a rock star in '92, so this time I am more skeptical.
Can you provide some examples? It's possible that I see a lot more Obama coverage than you, so maybe there are examples that I can't remember, but I honestly can't think of one time when he's dodged any real issues. He can dodge questions like a pro, for sure, but when those questions are all about peripheral tabloid issues, I don't see that as being the same thing.
MAY 20, 2008 11:13 AM
Echoing bean's sentiment, I hear livertarian's type of comments all the time (or an amalgamation of don't know what he stands for, what his record is, can't trust him etc.). Just once I wished these uninformed and misinformed media slaves would stop waiting to be spoon fed, get off their couch and actually do some research on Obama instead of simply parroting what they hear from some conservative luddite. For goodness sakes, this man could very likely be the next president and people are simply willing to be told what to think of him instead of actually looking into him for themselves (for better or worse!!!) I highly suggest people research all candidates before deciding to vote for instead of just settling for who you're told to vote against, otherwise why the hell are you recklessly voting?!?
Seriously, the Republicans have no where to go but low at this point. They're down in the muck and the best they can do is to try to pull everything down with them? I think their negativity and fear-mongering machine finally jumped it's rails and is going to hold them back in November.

livertarian
Fairfax, VA
February 2008
MAY 20, 2008 11:25 AM
bean said:
livertarian said:
I will respectfully argue that Obama ducks real issues as well as any politician who aspires to be President. If the argument is desired, anyway, I will see it through. No doubt, though, the guy has more class and style by far than anyone else on the trail. I got burned voting for a rock star in '92, so this time I am more skeptical.
Can you provide some examples? It's possible that I see a lot more Obama coverage than you, so maybe there are examples that I can't remember, but I honestly can't think of one time when he's dodged any real issues. He can dodge questions like a pro, for sure, but when those questions are all about peripheral tabloid issues, I don't see that as being the same thing.
Well, to begin a debate on this, we'd have to agree on what the "real issues" are. I would propose a few for starters.
Social Security. Obama said in his speech in Portland yesterday that higher-income people need to shoulder more of the burden. This resonates with voters - nobody really likes rich people, so of course they should pay more. This kind of statement I find highly typical of politics, and completely lacking practicality; SS is conceptually flawed from the ground up, and I don't believe anyone who's as educated and savvy as Obama can honestly see a way around it. Even if rich people were to be denied SS, plus taxed highly to support the lower brackets, the system will still go broke eventually. More importantly, Obama never mentions Medicare/Medicaid in his speeches, because it turns out these entitlements dwarf SS in cost. SS/Medicare/Medicaid is straight-up guaranteed to bankrupt the government. The accountants at the GAO can fill in details, but it's a $50 trillion problem as of today.
Drug War. Obama says nothing substantial that I can find. The implication is that he wants to stay the course by keeping drugs illegal and funding the War effort. I believe drug criminalization is by far the number one issue impacting African Americans as a group. Prison stats and crime stats might back me up on this.
Military policy. Withdrawal from Iraq is the only thing Obama has pledged so far that I can get behind. But he fails to discuss our military policy with any depth or candor. Would he back another UN resolution to essentially rebuild more nations deemed rebuild-able? How successful are these effort, considering the cost in lives and dollars, and what kind of results do we expect? Iraq was a disaster - most Americans agree - and yet the UN is not taken to task for resolving to make this happen.
It would be wonderful if there were more candidates out there discussing what the role of government truly ought to be. Protecting our rights would be my answer. Transformation of society is assumed to be the role, however, with little debate. Obama's speech on balancing religion with politics is an eloquent one, but sidesteps this very important issue to me and most true conservatives.
I realize that Obama has little to gain by sticking his neck out. But I also have to assume that the Hope and Change thing is just talk. I am prepared to see the mess we call the federal government become worse under this guy, or the other. It's really just a matter of how fast you wanna slide.
MAY 20, 2008 11:34 AM
livertarian said:
bean said:
livertarian said:
I will respectfully argue that Obama ducks real issues as well as any politician who aspires to be President. If the argument is desired, anyway, I will see it through. No doubt, though, the guy has more class and style by far than anyone else on the trail. I got burned voting for a rock star in '92, so this time I am more skeptical.
Can you provide some examples? It's possible that I see a lot more Obama coverage than you, so maybe there are examples that I can't remember, but I honestly can't think of one time when he's dodged any real issues. He can dodge questions like a pro, for sure, but when those questions are all about peripheral tabloid issues, I don't see that as being the same thing.
Well, to begin a debate on this, we'd have to agree on what the "real issues" are. I would propose a few for starters.
Social Security. Obama said in his speech in Portland yesterday that higher-income people need to shoulder more of the burden. This resonates with voters - nobody really likes rich people, so of course they should pay more. This kind of statement I find highly typical of politics, and completely lacking practicality; SS is conceptually flawed from the ground up, and I don't believe anyone who's as educated and savvy as Obama can honestly see a way around it. Even if rich people were to be denied SS, plus taxed highly to support the lower brackets, the system will still go broke eventually. More importantly, Obama never mentions Medicare/Medicaid in his speeches, because it turns out these entitlements dwarf SS in cost. SS/Medicare/Medicaid is straight-up guaranteed to bankrupt the government. The accountants at the GAO can fill in details, but it's a $50 trillion problem as of today.
Drug War. Obama says nothing substantial that I can find. The implication is that he wants to stay the course by keeping drugs illegal and funding the War effort. I believe drug criminalization is by far the number one issue impacting African Americans as a group. Prison stats and crime stats might back me up on this.
Military policy. Withdrawal from Iraq is the only thing Obama has pledged so far that I can get behind. But he fails to discuss our military policy with any depth or candor. Would he back another UN resolution to essentially rebuild more nations deemed rebuild-able? How successful are these effort, considering the cost in lives and dollars, and what kind of results do we expect? Iraq was a disaster - most Americans agree - and yet the UN is not taken to task for resolving to make this happen.
It would be wonderful if there were more candidates out there discussing what the role of government truly ought to be. Protecting our rights would be my answer. Transformation of society is assumed to be the role, however, with little debate. Obama's speech on balancing religion with politics is an eloquent one, but sidesteps this very important issue to me and most true conservatives.
I realize that Obama has little to gain by sticking his neck out. But I also have to assume that the Hope and Change thing is just talk. I am prepared to see the mess we call the federal government become worse under this guy, or the other. It's really just a matter of how fast you wanna slide.
None of those are examples of him "ducking" any issues or "dodging" anything. Whether you disagree with his statements, or can't find statements from him about an issue, those don't constitute ducks or dodges. Try again.
MAY 20, 2008 11:39 AM
At one point, Cindy playfully twirled McCain's hair and said, "You're getting a little thin up there." McCain's face reddened, and he responded, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you cunt." McCain's excuse was that it had been a long day. If elected president of the United States, McCain would have many long days.
Holy mother of God.... When you said this I thought it was some kind of joke. Who the fuck does that? I'd hate to see what would happen if McCain had a "long day" in the Oval Office. Suddenly the leader of Iran is a "dick-sucking butthole" and we're in war for twenty more years...
MAY 20, 2008 11:44 AM
FellOnEarth said:
Echoing bean's sentiment, I hear livertarian's type of comments all the time (or an amalgamation of don't know what he stands for, what his record is, can't trust him etc.). Just once I wished these uninformed and misinformed media slaves would stop waiting to be spoon fed, get off their couch and actually do some research on Obama instead of simply parroting what they hear from some conservative luddite. For goodness sakes, this man could very likely be the next president and people are simply willing to be told what to think of him instead of actually looking into him for themselves (for better or worse!!!) I highly suggest people research all candidates before deciding to vote for instead of just settling for who you're told to vote against, otherwise why the hell are you recklessly voting?!?
Abso-fucking-lutely!
During debates, Obama can only answer the questions asked. And if you have asshats asking inane questions about idiotic non-issues, there simply isn't time to get to the issues. And partisan "news" sources sure as hell aren't going to outline the position of someone they don't like. How much time was spent by right-wing talking-heads on Obama's middle name? How many weeks were spent on Jeremiah Wright, or on an "elitist" remark. How much time was spent talking about Clinton having a little catch in her voice early on in the campaign at the end of a hard day, or her taking a shot and a beer in a bar?
The information on the issues is readily available. Go look for it. In fact, I'll provide you with a nice link:
All info can be found here.

Quirky
Birmingham, AL
October 2005
MAY 20, 2008 11:55 AM
Nolan_Void said:
At one point, Cindy playfully twirled McCain's hair and said, "You're getting a little thin up there." McCain's face reddened, and he responded, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you cunt." McCain's excuse was that it had been a long day. If elected president of the United States, McCain would have many long days.
Holy mother of God.... When you said this I thought it was some kind of joke. Who the fuck does that? I'd hate to see what would happen if McCain had a "long day" in the Oval Office. Suddenly the leader of Iran is a "dick-sucking butthole" and we're in war for twenty more years...
I'm more concerned about the McCain family spousal abuse that isn't documented by the media.
MAY 20, 2008 11:58 AM
coyotemike said:
FellOnEarth said:
Echoing bean's sentiment, I hear livertarian's type of comments all the time (or an amalgamation of don't know what he stands for, what his record is, can't trust him etc.). Just once I wished these uninformed and misinformed media slaves would stop waiting to be spoon fed, get off their couch and actually do some research on Obama instead of simply parroting what they hear from some conservative luddite. For goodness sakes, this man could very likely be the next president and people are simply willing to be told what to think of him instead of actually looking into him for themselves (for better or worse!!!) I highly suggest people research all candidates before deciding to vote for instead of just settling for who you're told to vote against, otherwise why the hell are you recklessly voting?!?
Abso-fucking-lutely!
During debates, Obama can only answer the questions asked. And if you have asshats asking inane questions about idiotic non-issues, there simply isn't time to get to the issues. And partisan "news" sources sure as hell aren't going to outline the position of someone they don't like. How much time was spent by right-wing talking-heads on Obama's middle name? How many weeks were spent on Jeremiah Wright, or on an "elitist" remark. How much time was spent talking about Clinton having a little catch in her voice early on in the campaign at the end of a hard day, or her taking a shot and a beer in a bar?
The information on the issues is readily available. Go look for it. In fact, I'll provide you with a nice link:
All info can be found here.
I'll do ya one better, mike.
Obama's stances on...
Healthcare
Military/Foreign Policy
Social Security
If I missed any, livertarian, all the rest are right there on the site. Maybe he hasn't been able to fit all that into every speech that he's given, but it's up on the site and I found it with one single Google search, so it can't be that hard for anyone else to get a hold of.
MAY 20, 2008 12:02 PM
Narghile said:
Nolan_Void said:
At one point, Cindy playfully twirled McCain's hair and said, "You're getting a little thin up there." McCain's face reddened, and he responded, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you cunt." McCain's excuse was that it had been a long day. If elected president of the United States, McCain would have many long days.
Holy mother of God.... When you said this I thought it was some kind of joke. Who the fuck does that? I'd hate to see what would happen if McCain had a "long day" in the Oval Office. Suddenly the leader of Iran is a "dick-sucking butthole" and we're in war for twenty more years...
I'm more concerned about the McCain family spousal abuse that isn't documented by the media.
You and me both. I'm not going to lie, I found McCain kind of charming in his own way, even though I completely distrusted his change from being "disgusted" with Bush so many years ago to being his best fucking buddy. I worry about the truthfulness of the reporters saying that he called his wife a "cunt", but seeing as how he is known for his temper I wouldn't find it much of a stretch to find that it really happened. And domestic issues aside, it's just terrifying to think of having someone who might just flip the fuck out on a foreign dignitary that he didn't agree with as our president.

livertarian
Fairfax, VA
February 2008
MAY 20, 2008 12:07 PM
bean said:
None of those are examples of him "ducking" any issues or "dodging" anything. Whether you disagree with his statements, or can't find statements from him about an issue, those don't constitute ducks or dodges. Try again.
You might be right, bean. It would perhaps be more accurate to call Obama duplicitous, though I would still argue he is a dodger.
On the Drug War, I actually did find
this nice write up. So he plans to win the Drug War after all, by keeping drugs illegal and somehow making first offenders less likely to repeat their "crimes".
On SS/Medicare/Medicaid, his policy statements indicate he actually believes you can manage a system where everyone receives more money than they put into it. But without a real numerical connection from "reducing waste" in M/M to actually depositing enough cash into the Treasury to allow the money to grow at the needed rate, I have to call this ducking and/or dodging.
MAY 20, 2008 12:11 PM
Narghile said:
Nolan_Void said:
At one point, Cindy playfully twirled McCain's hair and said, "You're getting a little thin up there." McCain's face reddened, and he responded, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you cunt." McCain's excuse was that it had been a long day. If elected president of the United States, McCain would have many long days.
Holy mother of God.... When you said this I thought it was some kind of joke. Who the fuck does that? I'd hate to see what would happen if McCain had a "long day" in the Oval Office. Suddenly the leader of Iran is a "dick-sucking butthole" and we're in war for twenty more years...
I'm more concerned about the McCain family spousal abuse that isn't documented by the media.
I'm not entirely sure I buy any of that. I know he's got a temper, but as far as I can tell, there's one source for all of those rumors (a book called "The Real McCain" by Cliff Schecter), and none of them have been confirmed with any real diligence. Indeed Matthew Yglasias, who quoted the story from the book and blogged about it, had this to say:
So yesterday I blogged this story about John McCain having called his wife a "cunt" and a "trollop." The story was the kind of thing that's known in the journalism business as "too good to check," which is to say I just kind of linked to it thoughtlessly without considering the sourcing. The sourcing, however, is not very good -- "Three reporters from Arizona, on the condition of anonymity, also let me in on another incident" which wasn't reported on at the time and of which there's no evidence over the past 16 years outside of Cliff Schecter's book.
Cliff's a good guy, and no doubt reporters from Arizona really did tell him this anecdote. But still, if I'm honest with myself about what I would think of this story if it were being told about a politician I admire, I'd say it was mighty thin and the reality is that it's thin as an anti-McCain story too. There is, clearly, ample evidence that McCain has a short fuse and an occasional penchant for inappropriate name-calling, but there's no evidence that this particular incident happened that meets a reasonable journalistic standard.
If we're going to reject these sorts of peripheral rumors and bullshit non-issue attacks, we should be consistent in that rejection.
MAY 20, 2008 12:12 PM
It's not ducking or dodging. You disagree with his policy.
End of story.












FearTheReaper
NEWSWIRE
I'm lost
MAY 19, 2008 09:18 PM