Obama on Zionism, Hamas and Jimmy Carter

A partially reassuring interview in Jeffrey Goldberg's column in the Atlantic.

It's actually quite rare to see a politician that understands what Zionism is about and why Israel's security is so important. I don't think Condoleezza Rice does.

I suspected that Obama was secretly the kind of Liberal who truly expected Israel to commit hara kari in order to give yet more land to Arabs lead by terrorists.

Bearing in mind the politics of his former mentor Jeremiah Wright, I expected Obama to sympathize with that antisemitic piece of shit, Jimmy Carter.

Unless Obama is an exceptionally well-informed schmoozer (as the most successful politicians must be), or indulging in subtle word-play it appears my impression of him may be have been slightly wrong.

A few examples of where Obama gets it wrong, nearly gets it and totally gets it:

Nearly gets it:

Fine - except when creeps like David Duke and Jimmy Carter brand Israel an "apartheid state", they are engaging in loophole racism. They are using a modern day, political blood libel.

It's great that Obama condemned Carter's words, but I don't think he appreciates the loathsome mindset behind them

Doesn't quite get it:

The issue of "settlements" is a complex one for people who don't share a spiritual bond with the Jewish Homeland. Settlers see themselves tending farms in territory which the Palestinians twice rejected. Land that remains unissued to any people or state, but which is morally and historically part of the native homeland of the Jewish people.

They are not the issue anyway. We're only talking about a few thousands settlers and their existence doesn't make a jot of difference to Hamas who want to kill all the Jews, regardless.

Islamists and Arab Nationalists regard all Jews in Israel as "settlers" and want rid of them, so worrying about a couple of ratty farms in Judea is beside the point. It is a distraction from the real issue.

The real barrier between Israel, Palestinians and peace are the armed, extremist Palestinian terrorist groups. They will remain the obstacle until someone disarms them and leaves the job of policing the Palestinians to he Palestinian official forces.

Totally gets it wrong:

Eugh - nice choice of words, B.O. Again - place the blame where it should be placed - firmly in the lap of terrorists. Terrorists aren't caused by our foreign policy. They aren't caused by Israel's existence. Terrorists are caused by evil religious leaders that brainwash kids.

Totally gets it:

and

excellent - some of the best statements I've seen from a Liberal

denying our own involvement in the creation and growth of terrorism is the most disgusting kind of self-delusional bullshit.

it's cute how you neatly skip over the fact that you're asking Palestinians to do the same for Israel. the simple fact is that in order to create the state of Israel--a just, necessary goal--we had to commit a number of questionable acts. and we had and continue to have to allow Israel to commit questionable acts in its own defense. to slap Palestinian fighters with the terrorist label is to ignore the complexity and moral uncertainty of the situation, and that deliberate ignorance is why charges of Zionism are leveled so frequently. not to say that they don't engage in terrorism, but you're not decrying their tactics--you're using their tactics as an excuse to ignore the reasons they feel driven to take action in the first place.

the galling, two-faced unfairness of the situation in the eyes of the Palestinians and other arab nations is a huge source (not the only source, possibly not even the main source, but still a large contributing factor) of the antisemitism in the region and in the world.

Am I?

If the Palestinians stopped fighting they'd have peace and have a homeland. Maybe not 100% of what they want, but nothing comes without compromise.

If the Israelis stopped fighting there would be a bloodbath resulting in the destruction of the State of Israel.

Since over three quarters of "Palestine" had already been hived off to give to the Arabs, the British should have given the last piece to the Jews with no strings attached.

However. due to woeful British mismanagement and Arab allegiance to Hitler, the Jews had to fight more wars to get their homeland back. Questionable acts happen in all wars. Both sides commit them. Moaning about questionable acts in a conflict is like crying about the weather.

IT ITS OWN DEFENSE

If I had a bunch of psychotics living next door to me and nobody was doing anything to help stop them, I can't guarantee what I'd do to keep my kids safe.

But I can tell you this - whatever I do, won't be tailored to fit the white guilt-ridden whims of pinheaded Liberals.

fighters? you cunt.

to me that is as disgusting as calling pedophiles "the differently sexualised"

whitewash those fuckers all you like, but tell me:

since when does sneaking into a supermarket and detonating a bomb next to two 16 year old girls constitute fighting?

how exactly is a pizza restaurant a worthy adversary in a battle?

what risk do the palestinians face from the bars and discos that their brave noble fighters blow up

here's what's unfair - 96% of Bilad al Sham is given to Arabs

4% is given to Jews to share with Arabs

Arabs openly say they want to grab that last bit from the Jews

the world expects Israel to give the Arabs more land

when Israel does give Arabs more land they use it to launch rocket attacks at Israel, yet the liberals continue to lionise the Arab terrorists as "fighters" and piss and moan about Israel and blame it for antisemitism.

yuck

You know, this is actually one of those post where the subject is more worthy of discussion than the poster.

one could say the same thing about the US during the 'War of Northern Aggression'. we could have had peace, just as the american indians and the aboriginal tribes of australia have peace. it is pigheaded and ridiculous to expect any people to stop fighting for their homeland, when we as a nation have the history that we have. not to mention how frequently we support such underdogs--when it suits us.

there's a difference between moaning and questioning. that's why they're called questionable acts, and not acts which should be moaned about.

'terrorist' is, these days, just as loaded a term as 'apartheid'. i choose not to use it in this case because i choose to not ignore and reject the reason these combatants continue to fight. that doesn't mean i approve of the terror tactics that they employ; it simply means that i am aware of how language shapes conversation. should i call you a cunt, now?

yes, well, up until the middle of the 19th century, the US owned roughly a third of what would become its territory. we weren't satisfied with that, though--we wanted the whole shebang. nations and peoples aren't known for being satisfied with part-ownership of the territory they see as theirs. moaning about that fact is like moaning about the weather.

Israel is no more to blame for antisemitism than liberals are to blame for conservatism. the fact remains that when liberals are in power, conservatives complain more, and vice-versa. the only difference is that neither liberalism nor conservatism is inherently evil (despite what proponents of each would have you believe about the other). Israel's demise would not lower antisemitism. Israel's existence, however, does give antisemitics a target to focus on.

It is pigheaded and ridiculous to expect Israel to give a state to these nice gentlemen:



I don't think it is ridiculous to imagine Israel giving the Palestinians most of what Fatah claim to want, but the Palestinians have to disband Islamic Jihad, the Al Asqa Martyrs Brigade & Hamas.

The Palestinians do not need terrorists to "fight for their homeland", they already have official forces. If you at all noticed the circular nature of attack-reprisal-attack, then all the Palestinians need to do is stop attacking.

What about Israel? Well take a look at Gaza.

Israel did an experiment. They withdrew settlers and their army and gave the Palestinians full autonomy over Gaza. It was a measure of trust, since the Palestinians did not disband any terrorist groups,.

But it was also a very public test bed. An opportunity for the Palestinians to show what they were made of. To show the world they could organise themselves peacefully, build a state and get on peacefully with Israel.

So how did they do?

On the 12th July as the withdrawal plan was about to get underway, Islamic Jihad defended the Palestinian people by killing two 16 year old girls, a 31 year old Russian woman and a 50 year old grandmother who were shopping in a Netanya mall.


Then, following a late August suicide attack on Beersheba and the Israeli's formal withdrawal on 12th September, the Palestinians let off their next suicide bomb on 26th October. No doubt the "fighter" concerned felt that the random patrons of Hadera's open market were a worthy adversary. His nail bomb killed 6 and wounded 55.

On the home front, the Palestinians celebrated their new found autonomy in Gaza by desecrating synagogues, looting and destroying the valuable agricultural intrastructure that the israelis had left for them, voting Hamas as their government and using the land Israel gave them to launch thousands of rocket attacks at Israel. They breached the border with Egypt, threw political opponents off the top of buildings and have generally turned Gaza into a Lord of the Flies scenario.

There two syllables that tell you everything you need to know about why unilateral Israeli gestures are futile: GA ZA

Of course Hamas have offered a Hudna - a "give us land now - die later" scheme. Their covenant still contains the immortal words:

yeah - give them a fucking state

give me a forest of Jew trees to hide behind

I am not whitewashing terrorism.

The meaning of terrorism is not obscured. It is clear. Private groups or individuals who further their political aims by deliberately terrorizing civilians with bombs, gun attacks etc.

There's a clear distinction between terrorists, ordinary psychopaths, regular armies, militias and guerrillas.

Unlike terrorists, ordinary psychopaths are mentally ill and don't kill for a political cause.

Unlike terrorists, regular armies have levels of accountability, act on behalf of their country and come under the responsibility of international courts.

Unlike terrorists, militias aren't directly governed but often do the dirty work of political overlords. Their work however is not terrorism. It has different strategic aims.

Unlike terrorists Guerillas armed forces that engage with the armed forces of governments they want to overthrow.

It's true that some people emotionally throw in the term "terrorist" in order to attack opponents, but this doesn't change the meaning of the word.

When I emotionally call you a cunt, it doesn't mean you are literally a vagina. But Hamas, Islamic Jihad and the Al Asqa Martyrs Brigade are *literally* terrorists.

True - but it doesn't justify people unilaterally moaning about Israel. Why not moan at Jordan for a while? They got most of the land.

That's like someone saying a women's clothing inspired the rapist.

That's how it should be.

Why do you mention it?

It's a bit more nuanced than that, but if Likud is faultless (I don't know anything about Likud, so I can't say if unwavering support is warranted.) then I suppose the sense you got from what you heard would be retained.

no, you're blackwashing--if that's a word--anyone who doesn't unquestioningly support Israel's most hawkish tendencies and actions. i mean, you just called Jimmy Carter a white supremacist because he and David Duke used the same word. you ignore the part where Duke used it in a hilariously hypocritical condemnation of the entire state of Israel, and Carter used it to describe a specific action taken by Israel. David Duke believes in god, same as Mother Theresa did; that doesn't mean Mother Theresa deserves to be lumped in with the likes of David Duke. painting disparate political figures with the same brush to make your point serves only to drive people away from it. not to mention being blatantly false.

cute, reductio ad rapeum--the new Godwin's Law.

you know, if that works, we could take that idea and apply it everywhere, thereby achieving world peace. people should just stop fighting. a fucking genius, is what you are.

the situation in Israel is complex, and shouldn't be painted in black and white. it is just as wrong--and just as damaging to any peace process based in reality--to proclaim that Israel shouldn't be questioned as it is to claim that Israel should be destroyed.

Oh, good, another useless, Jews are right, Palestinians are wrong thread.

This should go great.

I applaud.

I believe this thread was posted with the specific intent of being inflammatory. When one of the opening statements is

and degrades from there, I cannot see how this can be taken any other way. There are ways to present alternative points of view that can engender intelligent discussion and debate. This is not one of them. I can only conclude that the intent of the OP is to cause trouble, disrupt the discourse present on the boards, and some other personal satisfaction I cannot fathom. I believe this adequately expresses my intent and opinion without a TOS violation.

I think I know of a 5 letter word that sums all that up.

quite.

Wouldnt it be great if uptight could actually meet Jimmy Carter? Uptight would be all

and Jimmy would politely challenge him to a duel, which he would totally win, sinces hes all buff from building houses for the poor and nuclear engineering, and peanut farming, and then uptight would be all

and Jimmy would be all,

and thats what I think of this article.

Shit dude, yer gonna get me in truble.

thank god i'm a scientologist.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!!

how dare you sully the fine name of uptight! he's just so smart, and wants to enlighten us with his prodigious intelligence!

totally. me and T. Cruise kick it weekly at the L. Ron Hubbard Enlightenment Center/ Intergalactic Titty bar.

don't ask, you have to be OT XII, minimum.

Intergalactic titty bar you say?

Does the chick from Total Recall with the three knockers work there?

I am just thankful that the TOS here protect statements like

while prohibiting the identification of TROLLS.