Muslim girl suspended in Oklahoma over dress code.

Interesting. I don't know what to make of it; there was something very similar to this in France a couple of years back, perhaps our French friends could comment more on this regarding their experience?




Dress code gets girl suspended.



[Edited on Oct 14, 2003 by Allister]

its stupid to not allow it, but rules are rules and if she and her parents dont like it its not the schools problem

I'll start by saying that I think it's rediculous. You should be allowed to wear religious head coverings. Even the hated NYPD allows religious head coverings in place of the regulation cover.

BUT........this is the product of those people who so voraciously seek to keep religion as far away from schools as possible. This is the product of people raising a stink because someone put a Christmas tree on municipal property.

It's shit like that that has public entities' asses so puckered they can't make a common sense judgement call for fear of litigation, so they make their zero tolerance policies.

I hope the God/Allah/Yaweh/Vishnu/Other-damned ACLU is happy.

It's a public school. Therefore, it is the school's problem. Dress code rules at public schools should have religious exemptions. You would be right if it was a private school.

Rules are rules? Are you fucking serious? I hardly even know where to begin on that famous idiocy. Just because something is a "rule" doesn't mean its a good rule, or a just rule, or a legitimate rule or in this case, a constitutional rule. All it it means is that someone who thinks thay have authority wants someone else to do something. Thats it, and guess what? They don't have the authority, and it is the schools problem and theyre about to be humiliated by a federal court judge who likely isn't going to be persuaded by your analysis.

it's a public school though, so I'm not sure how this works exactly.

Sorry, but thats a load of crap. This has nothing whatsoever to do with God forbid, enforcing the separation of church and state, except insofar as its a petty excuse on the part of people who wish there wasn't one. This is about using a trendy power grab rule (I mean really, how many street gangs do you really think Muskogee, OK has to worry about) to humilate the different kid for being different. This isn't about fear of litigation, since theyre basically begging to be sued and have no chance of success. There isn't even a colorable religious element to the policy, so really your argument has no basis. Its an anti gang rule that they refuse to modify in order to allow the free exercise of religion, an issue which the ACLU you hate so much is at the vanguard of defending, and I utterly gurantee will intervene in this case.

not too long ago, there was an instance here in florida where a muslim woman would not remove her burqua for her drivers license photo. im not condoning that, but i can at least understand that. but yeah, this was silly

ps: my first response to a current events thread ever. please be kind

its scary isnt it saltwater...

i have mixed emotions about this. i think its wrong first of all i wanna get that out there. when i was in fourth grade there was this girl who had such a terrible family life that she pulled her hair out in clumps. it was a real mental condition that she couldnt help...but kids being kids she got picked on all the time for it. so the school stepped in and allowed her to wear hats to school. in this case when the school stepped in they did the right thing.

but i can see where Cash is coming from...

when people start bitching too much, the school has to set up no tolerance policies...and then when a situation like this comes along theyre fucked, either way.

hopefully theyll allow her to wear it...i dont think they have a right to tell her she cant...but atleast recognize the other side of the situation.

Actually, Muskogee had several gangs in the '80's...the, um, 1880's.

Well, you can wear a turban if you are a sihk on the NYPD, but not if you're on an active swat mission. On regular duty, the state has no compelling interest where an accomodation is possible. On the SWAT team, it's compelling interest is the safety of the man and, thereby, the unit.

Christmas decorations are a completely different thing. No religion requires public space be used to advertise.

As to the ACLU, they have overwhelmingly supported free practice of religion in america. to suggest otherwise is just ignorant. I'm not saying you are an ignorant person, cash, because you demonstrably are not. I'm saying the ACLU has demonstrably protected religious observance in America since it's inception.

As to why this chick gets to wear a hat:
Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Unless there is a compelling interest by the state, they cannot abridge the entitlements of a citizen. The school will, if they try to show that this case passes the cpmpelling interest test, be laughed at.

by this thinking, women wouldn't vote and we'd still have poll taxes. Rules, when superceded by other rules, are not rules.

i dig the ACLU... I believe totally with the idea of seperation of church and state.. and i see a very real threat when such things are not moderated... but that should only go for the state and its ceremonies and administrators... consider that a kid is forced to go to school by law or society or whatever.... to not let a student dress with self expression would be an infringement on the first ammendment... let kids wear what they want.. and let the teachers act as government puppets.

its scary isnt it saltwater...

i have mixed emotions about this. i think its wrong first of all i wanna get that out there. when i was in fourth grade there was this girl who had such a terrible family life that she pulled her hair out in clumps. it was a real mental condition that she couldnt help...but kids being kids she got picked on all the time for it. so the school stepped in and allowed her to wear hats to school. in this case when the school stepped in they did the right thing.

but i can see where Cash is coming from...

when people start bitching too much, the school has to set up no tolerance policies...

No, really, they don't. Perhaps I'm the only one who actually remembers middle school and high school. I find that curious, but tis starting to seem that way. Middle school and high school administration are, in about 80% of the cases, where people who cant cut it in academia or private industry end up to settle their petty grievances. Their policies are about imposing their will on people who cant really do anything back, and are the very defintion of arbitrary and capricious.

My brother is a high school adminsitrator in a real honest to God inner city public school, with real, honest to God gang bangers. If he had the luxury of giving a shit whether some kid wore a hat or baggy pants he'd be doing cartwheels in the hall. These dress codes are nothing more than than administrators in pissnat school districts manufacturing a non existant crisis to make themselves more important.

But really theyre not. If they had no dress code there would be no problem. Its Muskogee fucking Oklahoma. If they actually had a gang probelm they'd have figured out by now that baseball hats ain't got shit to do with it. Theyre only fucked because theyre refusing to allow a student to exercise a clearly enumerated constitutional right.

if they want the rule changed ignoring it isnt going to do much. i assume this doesnt happen at every school in america so if her parents dont want to get things changed they can home school the kid or send her somewhere else. if nothing else, maybe, just maybe, try changing it, instead of acting like it doesnt exist.

[Edited on Oct 14, 2003 by kighva]

richiedagger said:
when people start bitching too much, the school has to set up no tolerance policies...

lordjim said:

No, really, they don't. Perhaps I'm the only one who actually remembers middle school and high school. I find that curious, but tis starting to seem that way. Middle school and high school administration are, in about 80% of the cases, where people who cant cut it in academia or private industry end up to settle their petty grievances. Their policies are about imposing their will on people who cant really do anything back, and are the very defintion of arbitrary and capricious.

My brother is a high school adminsitrator in a real honest to God inner city public school, with real, honest to God gang bangers. If he had the luxury of giving a shit whether some kid wore a hat or baggy pants he'd be doing cartwheels in the hall. These dress codes are nothing more than than administrators in pissnat school districts manufacturing a non existant crisis to make themselves more important.

i agree partially with that...hats dont have shit to do with it, dress codes are retarded, and most administrators are just assholes on power trips. but i think they set up rules like this because dealing with these kind of instances once in a while is alot easier than dealing with people bitching all the time...so in a sense i think they do need to establish dress codes because people start bitchin too much. i still dont like dress codes and i got in trouble for them all the time...but from their point of view i think they think it make it easier on them.

richiedagger said:

and then when a situation like this comes along theyre fucked, either way.

lordjim said:

But really theyre not. If they had no dress code there would be no problem. Its Muskogee fucking Oklahoma. If they actually had a gang probelm they'd have figured out by now that baseball hats ain't got shit to do with it. Theyre only fucked because theyre refusing to allow a student to exercise a clearly enumerated constitutional right.

right. dead on. If they had no dress code there would be no problem. but they do have dress codes. the way things should be arent the way they are unfortunately. so once the dress code is established...theyre fucked either way.

[Edited on Oct 14, 2003 by richiedagger]

What the hell are you talking about. They are trying to change it. Thats whqat the meetings and the lawyers and the newspaper articles are about.

Or are you suggesting that she should obey an illegal rule that would force her to commit a sacrilage until the enlightened minds of Muskogee decide to chage their rule?

Officials at the school, the Ben Franklin Science Academy, previously summoned Hern to the office on September 11 to inform her she was no longer allowed to wear the scarf. She had worn it since the school year started a few weeks earlier.

coincidence?


I think it's stoopid. It's obviously not gang related. unless they're claiming she's showing solidarity with them there terrorist folk.

and it should have absolutly nothing to do with church/state violations...otherwise they are gonna have to go around campus and rip all those cute little cross necklaces off the other students' necks.

"Officials at the school, the Ben Franklin Science Academy, previously summoned Hern to the office on September 11 to inform her she was no longer allowed to wear the scarf. "

"Board officials met Friday to discuss the fate of suspended sixth-grader Nashala "Tallah" Hern, who was asked to leave school in the eastern Oklahoma town of Muskogee on October 1..."

"The girl's father met with school officials Friday in a closed-door hearing to appeal the decision"

yah, the girls parents are trying to change it, but after a month when she was first told. hell the girl was told on sept 11, and she wasnt suspended till oct 1, thats plenty of time to get in touch with the admins.

She was told on sept 11.......... hhhhmmmmmm interesting.





pretty sad for a FREE country I think. Hate to say it again and don't think that I think my Country is perfect but I couldn't imaginr this happening over here.

i think the sept 11th thing might be a little paranoid people. maybe if this was something huge on a national level...but its just one little high school.

She was suspended for the first time on the first. I would assume come contact was made then. I would be very surprised if no contact was made the second time they suspended her.

They only said her parents had a meeting last friday, not that it was the firsy one.

It didn't create a ruckus from aug 18th to sep 10th. Sep 11th the admin made a point of telling her what she could or couldn't wear. Three more weeks until the suspension.

It it was causing disruption to the life of the school, I'd think it would have been addressed a little quicker and the fact that she wore it for 3 weeks almost seals that it was not a compelling interest to the administration.

When I showed up for class in a "Fuck Reagan" t-shirt I was out before homeroom was over. That demonstrates interest.

In high school we were not allowed to wear hats in class, but there was a girl who still wore her hajib. no ruckus over her wearing something and no one else being allowed. I don't see what the school's problem is. IF there are gangs there are other ways of wearing your colors than hats and other headwear. These people that came up with these rules really take themselves too seriously.

what, the federal government has decided that if you're in the military you can wear religious items, but if you're in middle school you cannot?

we live in a weird world.


anyone else find it pretty conveniently odd that this school didn't care she was wearing it for WEEKS until SEPT 11, when they asked her to remove it?

It seems pathetic to exclude a girl from school for her religious beliefs but at the same time in the wake of the anti-muslim feeling following september 11th, i wouldnt subject a young girl to be the sole target for that, but i suppose i think she should just take it off because i cant understand why any woman would want to be part of a religion that offers them almost no human rights what so ever.