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mydogfarted

mydogfarted

Oakland, NJ
June 2003

JAN 18, 2008 09:58 AM

France declares Amazon.com's free shipping illegal.


Amazon.com, one of the largest stores online, offers several features that entice buyers to purchase there, such as "one-click purchasing" and free shipping on many items. While Amazon's multiple attempts to patent "one-click purchasing" has drawn no small amount of ire, the offer of free shipping has been lauded as a beneficial attribute -- until now.

Amazon.com's French website Amazon.fr currently stands in violation of a 1981 French law prohibiting certain discounts on books. The ruling by the French High Court contained two fines -- a one-time lump sum payment of €100,000 to the French Bookseller's Union, and a fine of €1,000 per day until the offending "free shipping" promotion is ended. While the proverbial gavel banged on December 12th, a "grace period" until mid-January gave them time to "correct the problem" and respond.

Amazon indeed responded -- but with defiance rather than compliance.

The 1981 Lang Law in France prohibits several type of discounts on books, including "loss leaders" -- selling a book below cost -- and offering a discount of more than 5% off the list price. With the "free shipping" discount factored in, France officials found Amazon in violating this law; but rather than raise their prices and risk losing customers, Amazon decided to hold fast. The company opted to pay the €1,000 per day fine.

Amazon.com founder and CEO Jeff Bezos wrote an email calling attention to the fact that "France would be the only country in the world where the free delivery practiced by Amazon would be declared illegal" and invites customers to sign an online petition stating their support of free shipping.

While Amazon's fight may seem noble, the current value of the fine is fixed for thirty days only. At that time, it will be "adjusted" ... and likely in an upward direction.



I'm not sure what the point here is. My only guess is that the government is tired of losing tax money on the internet sales that would be collected if a person purchase the same books at a local reseller.


surreal

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

JAN 18, 2008 12:28 PM

I'm guessing that the point is that Amazon.fr is operating illegally under French law.

Zarth

zarth

Seattle, WA
December 2004

JAN 18, 2008 01:02 PM

SockPuppet said:
I'm guessing that the point is that Amazon.fr is operating illegally under French law.


No, the point is to point and laugh at those horrible, un-American French people, who are cheese-eating surrender-monkeys (ha ha ha! still funny!) who hate Freedom.

In all seriousness, though, it does sound kind of weird. But some better context to the story would have been nice.

d20

d20

San Francisco, CA
September 2003

JAN 18, 2008 02:01 PM

if the French Gov't has indeed gone stupid, do they have their stunna shades on? are they going to, perhaps, shake them dreads? do tell.

mat8drb

mat8drb

United Kingdom
October 2004

JAN 18, 2008 02:06 PM

I find that strange that such a law (the Lang Law) still exists within the EU: the UK abolished the Net Book Agreement back in 94, 95 (?) and I would have thought other similar places in the EU would have done the same.

EDIT: Ha, no, Wikipedia proves me wrong.

Similar Fixed Book Price Laws exist in other countries, namely Austria, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, The Netherlands, Portugal, and Spain. At some point there was a similar law in the United Kingdom.

MrCrisp

MrCrisp

I'm lost
August 2004

JAN 18, 2008 02:07 PM

Zarth said:

SockPuppet said:
I'm guessing that the point is that Amazon.fr is operating illegally under French law.


No, the point is to point and laugh at those horrible, un-American French people, who are cheese-eating surrender-monkeys (ha ha ha! still funny!) who hate Freedom.

In all seriousness, though, it does sound kind of weird. But some better context to the story would have been nice.



the french hate a good deal. i'm surprised you haven't blamed the bourgeoisie yet, comrade. wink

MrCrisp

MrCrisp

I'm lost
August 2004

JAN 18, 2008 02:10 PM

d20 said:
if the French Gov't has indeed gone stupid, do they have their stunna shades on? are they going to, perhaps, shake them dreads? do tell.



with this ruling, the french government has not only let us see them show their grill but, perhaps, even their thizz face.

ElizaTheTroll

ElizaTheTroll

Australia
January 2006

JAN 18, 2008 04:25 PM

All I can say is that it seems a pretty unreasonable interpretation of the law. By offering free shipping, Amazon does not effectively sell books any cheaper than walk-in book shops would.

I mean, unless the French law says anything more specific about mail-order books.

freshprncebelair

freshprncebelair

Ellicott City, MD
June 2004

JAN 18, 2008 04:40 PM


In all seriousness, though, it does sound kind of weird. But some better context to the story would have been nice.



Basically, the french protect bookstores by enshrining MSRP into binding law. Amazon breaks this law with its low margins (and it's not dumping because they are still making a profit). So France levies a fine on Amazon.com daily, and Amazon views it as a cost of doing business.

I'm surprised Amazon didn't just move servers out of France and tell them to suck it. It's pretty much an impossible law to enforce unless they order fedex to halt all amazon packages in france, or something like that

Zarth

zarth

Seattle, WA
December 2004

JAN 18, 2008 04:57 PM

freshprncebelair said:

In all seriousness, though, it does sound kind of weird. But some better context to the story would have been nice.


Basically, the french protect bookstores by enshrining MSRP into binding law. Amazon breaks this law with its low margins (and it's not dumping because they are still making a profit). So France levies a fine on Amazon.com daily, and Amazon views it as a cost of doing business.


Thanks. I was thinking it must be some kind of protectionist rationale for such a law, but the article didn't discuss it at all.

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

JAN 18, 2008 05:03 PM

OlafTheTroll said:
All I can say is that it seems a pretty unreasonable interpretation of the law. By offering free shipping, Amazon does not effectively sell books any cheaper than walk-in book shops would.

I mean, unless the French law says anything more specific about mail-order books.



Well, not in that specific way - their prices are almost invariably at least 10-20% below retail, sometimes significantly more, and I think only the high cost of shipping keeps retail at all competitive. (I know that if I buy new these days, it's almost entirely through Amazon, and that's pretty much down to their Prime service.)

ElizaTheTroll

ElizaTheTroll

Australia
January 2006

JAN 18, 2008 05:37 PM

malkav11 said:

OlafTheTroll said:
All I can say is that it seems a pretty unreasonable interpretation of the law. By offering free shipping, Amazon does not effectively sell books any cheaper than walk-in book shops would.

I mean, unless the French law says anything more specific about mail-order books.



Well, not in that specific way - their prices are almost invariably at least 10-20% below retail, sometimes significantly more, and I think only the high cost of shipping keeps retail at all competitive. (I know that if I buy new these days, it's almost entirely through Amazon, and that's pretty much down to their Prime service.)



That may be the case in the US, but is it in France? As I understood it, the article was specifically about amazon.fr.

That said, I'm not quite sure how to interpret the phrase "with the free shipping factored in". If it means that the net price the customer pays is more than 5% below the retail price, I retract my statement. I understood it to mean that they subtract the usual shipping cost from that price and then find it to be below the legal margin.

Can anyone enlighten me here?

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

JAN 18, 2008 05:46 PM

Now that I look at amazon.fr, yeah, their book prices are clearly labelled "-5%, the maximum allowed by law", and they appear to also abide by the VAT (or local equivalent thereof), though my French lessons were not designed for this sort of use and I couldn't entirely tell. So this seems bizarre.

freshprncebelair

freshprncebelair

Ellicott City, MD
June 2004

JAN 18, 2008 09:58 PM

Zarth said:

freshprncebelair said:

In all seriousness, though, it does sound kind of weird. But some better context to the story would have been nice.


Basically, the french protect bookstores by enshrining MSRP into binding law. Amazon breaks this law with its low margins (and it's not dumping because they are still making a profit). So France levies a fine on Amazon.com daily, and Amazon views it as a cost of doing business.


Thanks. I was thinking it must be some kind of protectionist rationale for such a law, but the article didn't discuss it at all.



The protectionist rationale is to protect french culture and mom & pop bookstores.

Maybe france just needs to take a lesson from america. Our bookstores are more thriving than ever, because they have transformed into a vibrant social scene themselves, instead of a buttoned up bookstore. It seems France's problem is its unwillingness to change when it thinks it has it right.

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

JAN 18, 2008 11:04 PM

Er...our *chain* bookstores are thriving. The independent ones are going out of business in droves, and the ones that aren't are hurting.

Nessuno

Nessuno

Washington, DC
May 2006

JAN 18, 2008 11:10 PM

malkav11 said:
Er...our *chain* bookstores are thriving. The independent ones are going out of business in droves, and the ones that aren't are hurting.



I concur with that.


Earlier this month the legendary Cody's Books in Berkeley announced that it was closing its doors for good. It's a grim if unsurprising development. The last decade has not been kind to the traditional corner bookshop. Battered by online discounts and chain superstores, the American Booksellers Association has crumbled from 5,200 bookstores in 1991 to 1,702 stores in 2005. So if you were to seek a summary of their dilemma, this one might sound apt: "The old-fashioned bookstore was a charming place, but charm alone will not solve the problem of modern book distribution. . . . Hard though it may be to face the fact, the bookstore of today cannot primarily be a place for those who revere books as things-in-themselves."



Source

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

JAN 18, 2008 11:28 PM

I really think the smart money for the independent book retailer right now is the used market. I mean, there's only so much room, but it's one that's not being touched by most chains and although it exists online, the costs of shipping make it really tough to offer competitive used prices - online used buying homes in more on the "gotta have something rare and/or out of print" end of things.

MrCrisp

MrCrisp

I'm lost
August 2004

JAN 18, 2008 11:31 PM

malkav11 said:
I really think the smart money for the independent book retailer right now is the used market. I mean, there's only so much room, but it's one that's not being touched by most chains and although it exists online, the costs of shipping make it really tough to offer competitive used prices - online used buying homes in more on the "gotta have something rare and/or out of print" end of things.



i really love abebooks.com. the shipping usually ends up costing more than the books themselves, but that's usually up to the seller.

malkav11

malkav11

Saint Paul, MN
July 2003

JAN 18, 2008 11:55 PM

All I know is that it takes the fun out of it being able to just *find* the stuff I'm looking for.

And there aren't any dollar hardcovers.