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Phantasy

Phantasy

Australia
October 2005

DEC 09, 2007 04:13 PM

I really just cannot fathom this latest rape case. A girl under the age of 12 cannot consent to sex under Queensland law. Regardless of that little fact, how is it possible for a rape victim to consent anyway?

Why is there no mention of rehabilitation?

Why is the judge saying things like "... I hope that all of you realise that you must not have sex with young girls." Not as much as all the young girls living in that community hope they realise it, you don't. surreal


NINE men who pleaded guilty last month to gang-raping a 10-year-old girl at the Aurukun Aboriginal community on Cape York have escaped a prison term, with the sentencing judge saying the child victim "probably agreed" to have sex with them.

Cairns-based District Court judge Sarah Bradley ordered that the six teenage juveniles not even have a conviction recorded for the 2005 offence, and that they be placed on a 12-month probation order, The Australian newspaper reported this morning.

Queensland's attorney-general is meeting with the state's prosecutions boss to consider the possibility of lodging an appeal against the sentence. The appeal period has lapsed, however it has been reported that the state could apply for an extension.

Judge Bradley sentenced three men over the age of consent of 16 - aged 17, 18 and 26 - to six months' imprisonment, with the sentence suspended for 12 months.

Judge Bradley said from her Cairns home yesterday that she considered the sentences "appropriate" in the case because they were the penalties asked for by the Crown prosecutor.

"I am not in a position to comment and I refer you to my sentencing remarks," Judge Bradley told The Australian.

Family supporters of the child victim warned that violence and murders could follow the judge's decision not to jail any of the offenders, and they questioned what message the ruling sent to the community.

When sentencing seven co-accused on October 24 at Aurukun, Judge Bradley noted: "The girl involved was not forced and she probably agreed to have sex with all of you."

The four juveniles are aged 14 to 16 years. They and the adults come from some of the most prominent and powerful Aboriginal families on Cape York.

Two more juveniles pleaded guilty on November 6 to raping the child, and were also given probation with no convictions recorded.

The child victim, now aged 12, does not enjoy the elevated family status of her attackers, and has had to be removed from Aurukun and put with foster parents.

News of the non-custodial sentences has added to the violent hatreds that exist in Aurukun between families and tribes and which have played a part in recent brawls involving dozens of assailants, many armed with sticks and spears.

Queensland Attorney-General Kerry Shine said last night he had called for an urgent meeting this morning with state Director of Public Prosecutions Leanne Clare, who, it is understood, was not told of the submissions made by her prosecutor for non-custodial sentences for the rapists.

Mr Shine said he needed to receive a clear picture of the circumstances surrounding the sentencing, including the prosecutor's submissions.

"I have been made aware of this tragic event this afternoon and have had an opportunity to read the sentencing remarks," Mr Shine said.

"I'm truly horrified by the circumstances of these offences. The circumstances of this case have not previously been brought to my attention, and nor has there been any communication with my office with regard to an appeal.

"Rape, particularly of a 10-year-old girl, by numerous offenders, is to my mind horrific in the extreme.

"It therefore appears to me that what I consider to be a particularly lenient sentence needs explanation."

One of the adult rapists is on the Australian National Child Offence Register following a conviction on March 29 last year for unlawful carnal knowledge of a female child - an offence committed after he was charged with the rape of the 10-year-old girl.

Judge Bradley said the man was the oldest and should have known a lot better.

"You cannot have sex with anyone under 16," she said.

"However, as I said before, I am not treating anyone any differently in terms of being a ringleader, and in your case, again, I will impose a sentence of imprisonment but it will be wholly suspended so you do not go to jail today.

"But if you get into more trouble in the next year, you could end up in jail." The man had been arrested on August 7, 2006, and the judge said the 14 days he spent in custody awaiting his sentence was to count as "imprisonment already served".

When sentencing the juveniles, Justice Bradley said: "All of you have pleaded guilty to having sex with a 10-year-old girl and (one of the juveniles) has pleaded guilty to having sex with another young girl as well.

"All of you have to understand that you cannot have sex with a girl under 16.

"If you do, you are breaking the law, and if you are found out, then you will be brought to court and could end up in jail.

"I accept that the girl involved, with respect to all of these matters, was not forced, and that she probably agreed to have sex with all of you.

"But you were taking advantage of a 10-year-old girl and she needs to be protected, and the girls generally in this community need to be protected.

"This is a very serious matter. It is a very shameful matter and I hope that all of you realise that you must not have sex with young girls.

"Anyone under 16 is too young. Some of you are still children yourselves. Others of you are adults but I am treating you all equally in terms of the behaviour.

"I am not treating any of you as the ringleader or anything like that."

She asked each prisoner to stand up and said she hoped they would realise it was wrong to have sex with young girls.

Justice Bradley then offered them probation and when each agreed to accept that, she said she would not record a conviction.

To one of the juveniles, she said: "You are still a child. You have pleaded guilty to one offence of rape.

"You have been in a lot of trouble in the past, though, and you still have some community service to do.

"You have not been doing that well. I am prepared to offer you probation but you have got to stick with the rules of probation."

The juvenile agreed and was then placed on 12 months' probation, with no conviction recorded.



Source.

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

DEC 09, 2007 04:39 PM

2 things could have gone into this. Firstly, the girl does appear to have wanted the sex, and while it can be argued that 10-year-olds can't make decisions like that as well as older people, it can never be explicitly proven. If she was reasoned, not inebriated, etc, then the fact that this was consensual goes a long way. I personally am not a fan of the straight-to-jail statutory rape punishments because so much statutory rape is consensual, and is not actually "rape" by its barest, most connotative definition. 10 years old may be pushing the envelope, but the spectre of consensuality is enough for me to step back and be more reasonable about the punishment if I'm a judge.

Secondly, it's much better for young sex offenders to be rehabilitated with a stern hand and encouragement than it is for them to be stuffed into prison with a bunch of murderers and hardasses. After all, they're still kids, and they're still in their formative years when behavioral patterns are most easily malleable. I think the second point is much easier to argue than the first, and is probably why they were given probation in the first place.

Chainlink

Chainlink

Christmas Island
August 2005

DEC 09, 2007 04:47 PM

Formus said:
Secondly, it's much better for young sex offenders to be rehabilitated with a stern hand and encouragement than it is for them to be stuffed into prison with a bunch of murderers and hardasses. After all, they're still kids, and they're still in their formative years when behavioral patterns are most easily malleable. I think the second point is much easier to argue than the first, and is probably why they were given probation in the first place.



Three of them were 17, 18 and 26.

26 is not a kid by any stretch of the imagination. Unless of course you are 80. surreal

Vestril

Vestril

Coronado, CA
February 2003

DEC 09, 2007 04:52 PM

Formus said:
2 things could have gone into this. Firstly, the girl does appear to have wanted the sex, and while it can be argued that 10-year-olds can't make decisions like that as well as older people, it can never be explicitly proven. If she was reasoned, not inebriated, etc, then the fact that this was consensual goes a long way. I personally am not a fan of the straight-to-jail statutory rape punishments because so much statutory rape is consensual, and is not actually "rape" by its barest, most connotative definition. 10 years old may be pushing the envelope, but the spectre of consensuality is enough for me to step back and be more reasonable about the punishment if I'm a judge.

Secondly, it's much better for young sex offenders to be rehabilitated with a stern hand and encouragement than it is for them to be stuffed into prison with a bunch of murderers and hardasses. After all, they're still kids, and they're still in their formative years when behavioral patterns are most easily malleable. I think the second point is much easier to argue than the first, and is probably why they were given probation in the first place.



10 may be pushing the envelope? When do we definitely push the envelope? 5?

Varuka_Salt

Varuka_Salt

I'm lost
October 2006

DEC 09, 2007 05:10 PM

I have an 11 year old daughter. In no way, shape or form does she have any capacity whatsoever to consent to sex. If you really think someone that young has any idea of what "consent" actually is, or the complexities of sex, then you are a totally sick piece of shit and should be locked away forever with a very large gay lifer. If anyone ever did anything even remotely like that to my children, they better hope the cops found him before I did, because I guarantee you, they will either be dead, dying or begging me to finish the job. mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad mad

_Margot_

_Margot_

Santa Monica, CA
December 2007

DEC 09, 2007 05:29 PM

Formus said:
2 things could have gone into this. Firstly, the girl does appear to have wanted the sex, and while it can be argued that 10-year-olds can't make decisions like that as well as older people, it can never be explicitly proven. If she was reasoned, not inebriated, etc, then the fact that this was consensual goes a long way. I personally am not a fan of the straight-to-jail statutory rape punishments because so much statutory rape is consensual, and is not actually "rape" by its barest, most connotative definition. 10 years old may be pushing the envelope, but the spectre of consensuality is enough for me to step back and be more reasonable about the punishment if I'm a judge.

Secondly, it's much better for young sex offenders to be rehabilitated with a stern hand and encouragement than it is for them to be stuffed into prison with a bunch of murderers and hardasses. After all, they're still kids, and they're still in their formative years when behavioral patterns are most easily malleable. I think the second point is much easier to argue than the first, and is probably why they were given probation in the first place.



mad
Are you fucking kidding me?

PRockGirlScout

PRockGirlScout

Hawaii National Park, HI
October 2005

DEC 09, 2007 05:36 PM

Vestril said:

Formus said:
2 things could have gone into this. Firstly, the girl does appear to have wanted the sex, and while it can be argued that 10-year-olds can't make decisions like that as well as older people, it can never be explicitly proven. If she was reasoned, not inebriated, etc, then the fact that this was consensual goes a long way. I personally am not a fan of the straight-to-jail statutory rape punishments because so much statutory rape is consensual, and is not actually "rape" by its barest, most connotative definition. 10 years old may be pushing the envelope, but the spectre of consensuality is enough for me to step back and be more reasonable about the punishment if I'm a judge.

Secondly, it's much better for young sex offenders to be rehabilitated with a stern hand and encouragement than it is for them to be stuffed into prison with a bunch of murderers and hardasses. After all, they're still kids, and they're still in their formative years when behavioral patterns are most easily malleable. I think the second point is much easier to argue than the first, and is probably why they were given probation in the first place.



10 may be pushing the envelope? When do we definitely push the envelope? 5?



Seriously. I mean, WTF? I can't really articulate anything further than that.

aleksa

aleksa

Tacoma, WA
April 2006

DEC 09, 2007 05:38 PM

Formus said:
2 things could have gone into this. Firstly, the girl does appear to have wanted the sex, and while it can be argued that 10-year-olds can't make decisions like that as well as older people, it can never be explicitly proven. If she was reasoned, not inebriated, etc, then the fact that this was consensual goes a long way. I personally am not a fan of the straight-to-jail statutory rape punishments because so much statutory rape is consensual, and is not actually "rape" by its barest, most connotative definition. 10 years old may be pushing the envelope, but the spectre of consensuality is enough for me to step back and be more reasonable about the punishment if I'm a judge.



I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't have kids, do you? There is NO SUCH THING as consensual sex with a 10 year-old. End of story.

Cash

Cash

I'm lost
OLD SKOOL

DEC 09, 2007 05:50 PM

Jackie_Treehorn

Jackie_Treehorn

Seattle, WA
June 2004

DEC 09, 2007 06:11 PM

Formus, I've never seen anybody move so much dirt so quickly. Did you hurt your self getting to the bottom of that hole?

atomicant

atomicant

Portland, OR
June 2003

DEC 09, 2007 06:39 PM

Formus said:
2 things could have gone into this. Firstly, the girl does appear to have wanted the sex, and while it can be argued that 10-year-olds can't make decisions like that as well as older people, it can never be explicitly proven. If she was reasoned, not inebriated, etc, then the fact that this was consensual goes a long way. I personally am not a fan of the straight-to-jail statutory rape punishments because so much statutory rape is consensual, and is not actually "rape" by its barest, most connotative definition. 10 years old may be pushing the envelope, but the spectre of consensuality is enough for me to step back and be more reasonable about the punishment if I'm a judge.



are you retarded? the law states (at least in the us) that people under the age of 18, are for the most part, unable to give consent for shit like this.

and statutory rape is rape. it's an abuse of power. even if a child 'consents' to sex, odds are they were in a relationship that was not healthy in the first place.

Formus

Formus

Milwaukee, WI
May 2007

DEC 09, 2007 06:47 PM

Holy crap, did someone just play devil's advocate? SERIOUSLY? THAT never happens. whatever

Varuka_Salt

Varuka_Salt

I'm lost
October 2006

DEC 09, 2007 06:52 PM

Formus said:
Holy crap, did someone just play devil's advocate? SERIOUSLY? THAT never happens. whatever



What the fuck do you need to play devils advocate for a bunch of assholes who GANG RAPED A 10 YEAR OLD!!!! Why is that so fucking hard to understand how fucking sick that is? Do you really believe that any kind of sex with a 10 year old under any circumstances could possibly be in any way OK? If you do, you seriously need to stay the fuck away from kids.

_Margot_

_Margot_

Santa Monica, CA
December 2007

DEC 09, 2007 07:03 PM

varukasalt said:

Formus said:
Holy crap, did someone just play devil's advocate? SERIOUSLY? THAT never happens. whatever



What the fuck do you need to play devils advocate for a bunch of assholes who GANG RAPED A 10 YEAR OLD!!!! Why is that so fucking hard to understand how fucking sick that is? Do you really believe that any kind of sex with a 10 year old under any circumstances could possibly be in any way OK? If you do, you seriously need to stay the fuck away from kids.



agreed.

Honestly, of all the people that need someone to play devil's advocate for them, a group of people raping a child are at the bottom of the fucking list.

It is fucking absurd and despicable that you could even think about rationalizing any of their actions,.

Jackie_Treehorn

Jackie_Treehorn

Seattle, WA
June 2004

DEC 09, 2007 07:05 PM

Formus, if a ten-year old offered you a million dollars, in cash, and said it was theirs and it was okay, would you in good conscience take it?

Well, this is way worse.

BlastProcessing

BlastProcessing

Knoxville, TN
OLD SKOOL

DEC 09, 2007 07:44 PM

Formus said:
Holy crap, did someone just play devil's advocate? SERIOUSLY? THAT never happens. whatever



You get the fuck away from that term and you fucking never, ever use it again. You have clearly shown that you are incapable of using it responsibly, and I won't have your hamhanded backpedaling casting aspersions on a perfectly good debate technique.

Rafi

Rafi

Santa Monica, CA
January 2003

DEC 09, 2007 07:45 PM

Formus said:
Holy crap, did someone just play devil's advocate? SERIOUSLY? THAT never happens. whatever



We got it, Socrates. Unfortunately, you came well short of whatever discussion-raising dialectic you were attempting. Your argument, whether phrased sincerely or as devil's advocacy, was neither thoughtful nor substantive in the least, merely banal and faux-"outrageous" in the manner of any generic small town radio shock-jock.

Vestril

Vestril

Coronado, CA
February 2003

DEC 09, 2007 10:15 PM

Formus said:
Holy crap, did someone just play devil's advocate?



In this thread? Not that I saw.

ElizaTheTroll

ElizaTheTroll

Australia
January 2006

DEC 09, 2007 10:27 PM

Formus said:
Holy crap, did someone just play devil's advocate? SERIOUSLY?



I guess a devil's advocate would be trying to make a convincing case. Assuming that you're serious about this and not just trolling, your attempt can only be classified as EPIC FAIL.

I actually have a dark suspicion that the motives for the mild verdict might have been political more than anything else.

Ascanius

Ascanius

South Royalton, VT
October 2006

DEC 09, 2007 10:55 PM

Phantasy

Phantasy

Australia
October 2005

DEC 09, 2007 11:49 PM

OlafTheTroll said:

Formus said:
Holy crap, did someone just play devil's advocate? SERIOUSLY?



I guess a devil's advocate would be trying to make a convincing case. Assuming that you're serious about this and not just trolling, your attempt can only be classified as EPIC FAIL.

I actually have a dark suspicion that the motives for the mild verdict might have been political more than anything else.



I agree. It just makes no sense. I believe the sentences were very lenient because the people involved were from Aboriginal communities.

Now, I am not saying that this case should be treated exactly the same as if it were the gang-rape of a girl by nine white men, I do understand the cultural differences at hand here, but it just doesn't seem to have been treated in a serious manner at all.

What message does this send to people living on Aboriginal communities? That their children don't matter as much? That they can't expect the same protection as white people do? That their criminals are somehow not responsible for or capable of understanding their misdeeds and will therefore be treated like errant children?

There is just so much wrong with this.

Why aren't there any sexual education programs in place for offenders? What about rehabilitating the offenders, some of them were very young and might benefit from it.

As for the judge's comment that the girl "probably consented", shaking my head is about all I can muster at this point.

It doesn't matter if she soberly signed a witnessed statement stating that she would willingly have sex with all nine men. She.is.ten.

Phantasy

Phantasy

Australia
October 2005

DEC 10, 2007 12:01 AM

Update:



The Queensland government will now review all criminal sentences in Cape York communities from the past two years.

Cairns-based District Court judge Sarah Bradley did not record convictions against six teenagers over the 2005 gang rape of a 10-year-old girl at the indigenous Aurukun community on Cape York.

Three others were given suspended sentences.

Premier Anna Bligh said she was concerned the sentence could be part of a trend in the region.

She said Attorney-General Kerry Shine today had met with Director of Public Prosecutions Leanne Clare for urgent advice on extending the appeal period and to discuss the likely success of an appeal.

Mr Shine also had decided to review other sentences in the region, Ms Bligh said.

"I want to satisfy myself that the people of Cape York, and the people who live in remote indigenous communities, are receiving the same level of justice as we can expect in any other community in Queensland," Ms Bligh told reporters in Brisbane today.

"The nature of the sentences in this case are so far from community expectations I have to say I am alarmed, and I am not prepared to just write this off as an unusual one-off case.

"I do want to satisfy myself that this is not part of a broader sentencing trend that reflects a lower standard for those communities."

Ms Bligh said she also was concerned the system had failed to bring the case to the attention of Mr Shine earlier, but she did not support calls to sack Ms Clare or Ms Bradley.



Source.

Mongo71

Mongo71

Ekalaka, MT
October 2007

DEC 10, 2007 07:34 AM

Formus said:
2 things could have gone into this. Firstly, the girl does appear to have wanted the sex, and while it can be argued that 10-year-olds can't make decisions like that as well as older people, it can never be explicitly proven. If she was reasoned, not inebriated, etc, then the fact that this was consensual goes a long way. I personally am not a fan of the straight-to-jail statutory rape punishments because so much statutory rape is consensual, and is not actually "rape" by its barest, most connotative definition. 10 years old may be pushing the envelope, but the spectre of consensuality is enough for me to step back and be more reasonable about the punishment if I'm a judge.

Secondly, it's much better for young sex offenders to be rehabilitated with a stern hand and encouragement than it is for them to be stuffed into prison with a bunch of murderers and hardasses. After all, they're still kids, and they're still in their formative years when behavioral patterns are most easily malleable. I think the second point is much easier to argue than the first, and is probably why they were given probation in the first place.



I really do hope this is some kind of Joke. It can and has been proven that 10 years olds do not have the intellectual capacity to understand the reasons for many of their decisions. Although some young girls may be physically able to produce children, the emotional intelligence needed to endure pregnancy is not present. Those are some of the reasons for the Law.
The whole thing about statutory rape being consensual. Well if someone is not able to give consent the rape cannot be consensual. It is illegal for a reason, not a whim.
Sex offenders DO NOT always do better in treatment, especially if that treatment is imposed upon them. In order for any treatment to be successful there needs to be an intrinsic desire to change. Without that you are just 'going through the motions'. If you would like i can provide several studies on not only therapy but also sex offender treatment. I feel very confident commenting on this as it is my chosen career path. I am a forensic therapist currently working with clients who have a major mental illnesses as well as deviant sexual behaviors.

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

DEC 10, 2007 07:45 AM

BlastProcessing said:

Formus said:
Holy crap, did someone just play devil's advocate? SERIOUSLY? THAT never happens. whatever



You get the fuck away from that term and you fucking never, ever use it again. You have clearly shown that you are incapable of using it responsibly, and I won't have your hamhanded backpedaling casting aspersions on a perfectly good debate technique.


It's been said before, but Formus is easily the lamest excuse for an internet troll of all time. He tries so hard, but he can't seem to pull it off.

Arwen

Arwen

United Kingdom
November 2004

DEC 10, 2007 08:39 AM

Formus said:
2 things could have gone into this. Firstly, the girl does appear to have wanted the sex, and while it can be argued that 10-year-olds can't make decisions like that as well as older people, it can never be explicitly proven. If she was reasoned, not inebriated, etc, then the fact that this was consensual goes a long way. I personally am not a fan of the straight-to-jail statutory rape punishments because so much statutory rape is consensual, and is not actually "rape" by its barest, most connotative definition. 10 years old may be pushing the envelope, but the spectre of consensuality is enough for me to step back and be more reasonable about the punishment if I'm a judge.

Secondly, it's much better for young sex offenders to be rehabilitated with a stern hand and encouragement than it is for them to be stuffed into prison with a bunch of murderers and hardasses. After all, they're still kids, and they're still in their formative years when behavioral patterns are most easily malleable. I think the second point is much easier to argue than the first, and is probably why they were given probation in the first place.



It's always you, isn't it. Good grief.

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