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bald_eagle

bald_eagle

Indianapolis, IN
November 2006

NOV 04, 2007 08:49 AM

zoom image

President Pervez Musharraf has had enough. He's decided to rid himself of that annoying independent judiciary. Oh, and he's had his fill of free press and stuff like that, too.

As reported in Aljazeera

Police in Pakistan have arrested hundreds of opposition figures after General Pervez Musharraf declared a state of emergency, replaced the chief judge and blacked out private TV outlets.
Reports say a number of journalists have also been arrested in the city of Lahore and thousands of people are demonstrating in the streets.
Musharraf, the Pakistani president, has defended his decision to suspend the constitution and insisted it was taken "in the interest of Pakistan".



You may recall that Musharraf wasn't happy when the Supreme Court reinstated Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry back in July. It got folks thinking Pakistan could be a real democracy.

The Christian Science Monitor reported on July 23rd:

The decision on Friday of a panel of supreme and high court judges to overturn the suspension of Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry inspired a burst of celebration from the lawyers who had gathered outside the Supreme Court of Pakistan.
The case had been seen as an attempt by the military regime to consolidate its control over yet another pillar of the state. But before the street-dancing and showers of rose petals had ended, the lawyers and opponents of President Pervez Musharraf were already declaring that a freshly confident and independent judiciary will lead the charge to reinstate democratic norms that have been eroded over the decades.



It makes one wonder just how well efforts to nourish democracy in that part of the world will go.

Chainlink

Chainlink

Dickeyville, WI
August 2005

NOV 04, 2007 09:01 AM

Oh look ! Chairman Mao lent him his jacket.

On a more serious note, this is obscene, not to mention embarrassing.
So much for all that spreading Democracy nonsense eh ?

scorp17yh

scorp17yh

Brookings, OR
November 2004

NOV 04, 2007 09:30 AM

Coming soon to a country near you:
Bush suspends Constitution and '08 elections declares National State of Emergency as a result of HIs invasion of Iran.

punk

punk

Phoenix, AZ
January 2004

NOV 04, 2007 10:00 AM

First, don't put "NEWS" in the title if it isn't a newswire article. They don't like that.

Second, I can't get past the fact that their armored vehicles look like cows:

zoom image

_kungfoo_

_kungfoo_

Altadena, CA
April 2005

NOV 04, 2007 10:58 AM

scorp17yh said:
Coming soon to a country near you:
Bush suspends Constitution and '08 elections declares National State of Emergency as a result of HIs invasion of Iran.



Coming soon to a internet forum near you:
Some guy makes wild accusations of this country's future, probably based off of a internet movie. Though I hear it's a great bar.

bald_eagle

bald_eagle

Indianapolis, IN
November 2006

NOV 04, 2007 12:02 PM

Chainlink said:
Oh look ! Chairman Mao lent him his jacket.

On a more serious note, this is obscene, not to mention embarrassing.
So much for all that spreading Democracy nonsense eh ?



Things are less than peachy in Afghanistan, too. You know, the place we had good reason to go.

Thanks to the huge commitment of resources in Iraq, we're spread thin there . After six years plus or minus a few weeks, the Afghan military hasn't been rebuilt and doesn't have effective control. Allied forces have lost over 190 soldiers this year, and the locals many more.

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

NOV 04, 2007 02:11 PM

People criticise Musharraf for not being democratic enough, but I don't know if complete democracy in Pakistan would be such a brilliant thing. Partly because I don't believe in the right of the majority to suppress the minority, and partly because I like to represent for Politeia.

It might be, but democracy in such a volatile country with a nuclear capacity could come with problems. Personally, I like that Musharraf seems to be making efforts to modernise his country and repeal some of the worst legislation, while forging alliances and declaring opposition to extremism. Also, he's improving women's rights - stating his commitment to ensuring women receive an equal education, stating that there is nothing in the Koran to mandate the wearing of the veil, and improving rape legislation. What would his political rivals bring to the table?
(I'm not telling you, I'm asking you.)

bald_eagle

bald_eagle

Indianapolis, IN
November 2006

NOV 04, 2007 02:50 PM

Jennifer_ said:
People criticise Musharraf for not being democratic enough, but I don't know if complete democracy in Pakistan would be such a brilliant thing. Partly because I don't believe in the right of the majority to suppress the minority, and partly because I like to represent for Politeia.

It might be, but democracy in such a volatile country with a nuclear capacity could come with problems. Personally, I like that Musharraf seems to be making efforts to modernise his country and repeal some of the worst legislation, while forging alliances and declaring opposition to extremism. Also, he's improving women's rights - stating his commitment to ensuring women receive an equal education, stating that there is nothing in the Koran to mandate the wearing of the veil, and improving rape legislation. What would his political rivals bring to the table?
(I'm not telling you, I'm asking you.)



We'll never know, if he's allowed to suppress his opposition so blatantly.

I can't completely disagree with you. We have been making the naive assumption that we can somehow get everyone to "see the light" and embrace democracy.

The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't working. Rather than being an example of how democracy can work in the middle east, it seems to be becoming an example of something else.

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

NOV 04, 2007 03:26 PM

Two quotes from the BBC article:


The moves came as the Supreme Court was due to rule on the legality of Gen Musharraf's October election victory.


Not exactly a surprise (I've been seeing articles about the state of Pakistan's democracy in (for instance) the London Review of Books for a couple of months now), but not exactly heartening, either.


US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has said Washington is reviewing the aid which it gives to Pakistan in the wake of Gen Musharraf's decision.


I await the result of this review with interest. I suspect the aid will remain at its current level.

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

NOV 04, 2007 04:05 PM

bald_eagle said:

Jennifer_ said:
People criticise Musharraf for not being democratic enough, but I don't know if complete democracy in Pakistan would be such a brilliant thing. Partly because I don't believe in the right of the majority to suppress the minority, and partly because I like to represent for Politeia.

It might be, but democracy in such a volatile country with a nuclear capacity could come with problems. Personally, I like that Musharraf seems to be making efforts to modernise his country and repeal some of the worst legislation, while forging alliances and declaring opposition to extremism. Also, he's improving women's rights - stating his commitment to ensuring women receive an equal education, stating that there is nothing in the Koran to mandate the wearing of the veil, and improving rape legislation. What would his political rivals bring to the table?
(I'm not telling you, I'm asking you.)



We'll never know, if he's allowed to suppress his opposition so blatantly.


Ah, I agree.

I can't completely disagree with you. We have been making the naive assumption that we can somehow get everyone to "see the light" and embrace democracy.

The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't working. Rather than being an example of how democracy can work in the middle east, it seems to be becoming an example of something else.


Absolutely, that's a good point. Although I find it strange when people talk about wanting an example of how democracy can work in the Middle East; it's such a diverse region, even if you find an example of how it can work in one country, that won't neccessarily generalise to the region. What works for Turkey might not work for Yemen.

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Mokena, IL
January 2005

NOV 04, 2007 04:12 PM

KUNGFOO said:

scorp17yh said:
Coming soon to a country near you:
Bush suspends Constitution and '08 elections declares National State of Emergency as a result of HIs invasion of Iran.



Coming soon to a internet forum near you:
Some guy makes wild accusations of this country's future, probably based off of a internet movie. Though I hear it's a great bar.



I really need to go to that bar some day.

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

NOV 04, 2007 04:19 PM

punk said:
I can't get past the fact that their armored vehicles look like cows:

zoom image



Cows in Arizona have wheels and machineguns? surreal

bald_eagle

bald_eagle

Indianapolis, IN
November 2006

NOV 04, 2007 04:40 PM

Jennifer_ said:

... I find it strange when people talk about wanting an example of how democracy can work in the Middle East; it's such a diverse region, even if you find an example of how it can work in one country, that won't neccessarily generalise to the region. What works for Turkey might not work for Yemen.



The claim that we're out to establish democracy in our middle-eastern foreign policy is specious. Saudi Arabia is in no danger of becoming a democracy anytime soon, but that doesn't seem to bother us.

The establishment of democracy there was just the after-the-fact justification Bush gave when WMDs weren't found in Iraq.

Priapos

Priapos

Water Valley, TX
October 2005

NOV 04, 2007 04:47 PM

This long Newsweek article talks about the history of militancy in Pakistan. It also describes how openlly Taliban, AQ, and others operate there.

I doubt anyone believes that Musharraf actually intends to use this tactic to fight them. His people know who and where the Islamic Radicals are, and have done little to arrest them so far. We now have Bhutto vs. militants, Musharraf vs. militants, Bhutto vs. Musharraf, and political opposition vs. all of the above. The more I know about Pakistan, the more confused (and worried) I get.

I like democracy, but look at Palestine, Turkey, and the U.S. You get some real whackjobs (not just Bush, Stevens and Byrd and others).

fountainofdreams

fountainofdreams

Mokena, IL
January 2005

NOV 04, 2007 04:50 PM

SockPuppet said:

punk said:
I can't get past the fact that their armored vehicles look like cows:

zoom image



Cows in Arizona have wheels and machineguns? surreal



You've never been?

I wouldn't try tipping that cow.

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

NOV 04, 2007 04:57 PM

bald_eagle said:

Jennifer_ said:

... I find it strange when people talk about wanting an example of how democracy can work in the Middle East; it's such a diverse region, even if you find an example of how it can work in one country, that won't neccessarily generalise to the region. What works for Turkey might not work for Yemen.



The claim that we're out to establish democracy in our middle-eastern foreign policy is specious. Saudi Arabia is in no danger of becoming a democracy anytime soon, but that doesn't seem to bother us.

The establishment of democracy there was just the after-the-fact justification Bush gave when WMDs weren't found in Iraq.



Exactly.

hadees

hadees

Austin, TX
December 2003

NOV 04, 2007 05:04 PM

bald_eagle said:

Chainlink said:
Oh look ! Chairman Mao lent him his jacket.

On a more serious note, this is obscene, not to mention embarrassing.
So much for all that spreading Democracy nonsense eh ?



Things are less than peachy in Afghanistan, too. You know, the place we had good reason to go.

Thanks to the huge commitment of resources in Iraq, we're spread thin there . After six years plus or minus a few weeks, the Afghan military hasn't been rebuilt and doesn't have effective control. Allied forces have lost over 190 soldiers this year, and the locals many more.



Unfortunately our huge commitment of resources in Iraq is only part of the problem. NATO hasn't exactly been living up to its commitments. It makes me wonder if the future of the United States was really threatened would NATO actually be able to get enough troops to help us and if the answer is no then that negates the point of NATO.

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

NOV 04, 2007 05:19 PM

hadees said:

bald_eagle said:

Chainlink said:
Oh look ! Chairman Mao lent him his jacket.

On a more serious note, this is obscene, not to mention embarrassing.
So much for all that spreading Democracy nonsense eh ?



Things are less than peachy in Afghanistan, too. You know, the place we had good reason to go.

Thanks to the huge commitment of resources in Iraq, we're spread thin there . After six years plus or minus a few weeks, the Afghan military hasn't been rebuilt and doesn't have effective control. Allied forces have lost over 190 soldiers this year, and the locals many more.



Unfortunately our huge commitment of resources in Iraq is only part of the problem. NATO hasn't exactly been living up to its commitments. It makes me wonder if the future of the United States was really threatened would NATO actually be able to get enough troops to help us and if the answer is no then that negates the point of NATO.



Remind me exactly what those commitments are, please.

The remaining good reason for the existence of NATO is to rein the US in, IMHO. Doesn't work very well. Frankly, Europe should be funding its own defence. But I don't really think that's in America's interest.

punk

punk

Phoenix, AZ
January 2004

NOV 04, 2007 06:17 PM

fountainofdreams said:

SockPuppet said:

punk said:
I can't get past the fact that their armored vehicles look like cows:

zoom image



Cows in Arizona have wheels and machineguns? surreal



You've never been?

I wouldn't try tipping that cow.



Our cows will kill you.

IDGAS

IDGAS

Jackson Heights, NY
March 2004

NOV 04, 2007 07:50 PM

SockPuppet said:

bald_eagle said:

Jennifer_ said:

... I find it strange when people talk about wanting an example of how democracy can work in the Middle East; it's such a diverse region, even if you find an example of how it can work in one country, that won't neccessarily generalise to the region. What works for Turkey might not work for Yemen.



The claim that we're out to establish democracy in our middle-eastern foreign policy is specious. Saudi Arabia is in no danger of becoming a democracy anytime soon, but that doesn't seem to bother us.

The establishment of democracy there was just the after-the-fact justification Bush gave when WMDs weren't found in Iraq.



Exactly.



Hey, let's not forget our success when we brought democracy back to Kuwait. Gulf War I when the unelected totalitarian Saddam Hussein invaded to freedom loving democratic (by that I mean "constitutional monarchy" - just like the UK whatever ) Kuwait.

Also because unelected non-freedom loving oil producing states never sell oil.

Next week I need to decide between the Fox News or Bush White House job offers tongue tongue

FellOnEarth

FellOnEarth

Temecula, CA
April 2006

NOV 04, 2007 11:40 PM

bald_eagle said:

Jennifer_ said:

... I find it strange when people talk about wanting an example of how democracy can work in the Middle East; it's such a diverse region, even if you find an example of how it can work in one country, that won't neccessarily generalise to the region. What works for Turkey might not work for Yemen.



The claim that we're out to establish democracy in our middle-eastern foreign policy is specious. Saudi Arabia is in no danger of becoming a democracy anytime soon, but that doesn't seem to bother us.

The establishment of democracy there was just the after-the-fact justification Bush gave when WMDs weren't found in Iraq.


Lets not forget why Turkey is fighting the PKK in northern Iraq, they weren't exactly very welcoming to ethnic Kurds within their country, despite the large number that live in eastern Turkey, they have been clearly excluded from the democratic process for years...

The entire political structure in Iran, er, I mean Pakistan (I'm getting ahead of myself here) is a shaky one. As an ally in "The War On Terror", the US has been giving billions in aid to the Musharaff government, helping to prop up the government and keep their economy afloat.

Now that Musharaff has decided to continuing his battle against democracy in his country (remember he got there by way of military Junta in the first place), the US is unlike to continue supporting Pakistan. The suspension of foreign aid and investment could offset the last 5 years of economic recovery that Pakistan has enjoyed and plunge it back into recession. I worry about a destabilized Pakistan like the US should have about Iran after the fall of the Shah of Iran. I worry that Musharaff and his political allies will become pariahs and the people of Pakistan will blame him and his former foreign allies (especially the US who has historically supported him). I worry that the people of Pakistan will replace the government with a populist anti-Western, hard-line Islamic theocracy, just like Iran did after the Shah left Iran. I worry what will happen to the nuclear weapons they already possess once this happens... Remember, certain people within our government simply can't accept ANY Muslim countries possessing WMD's. (Pakistan has been off the hook because, well, they already have them). How do you think Joe neo-con will react if this ever occurs? Iran 2.0, but with nukes?

Maybe I shouldn't worry so much, but I just hope we don't push them into a corner someday just like we are doing with Iran.

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
But what matter once we have our invisible tanks prowling along to keep everyone in line. whatever

LostLucy

LostLucy

USA
December 2006

NOV 04, 2007 11:45 PM

miao!! mad

LostLucy

LostLucy

USA
December 2006

NOV 04, 2007 11:55 PM

Jennifer_ said:

bald_eagle said:

Jennifer_ said:
People criticise Musharraf for not being democratic enough, but I don't know if complete democracy in Pakistan would be such a brilliant thing. Partly because I don't believe in the right of the majority to suppress the minority, and partly because I like to represent for Politeia.

It might be, but democracy in such a volatile country with a nuclear capacity could come with problems. Personally, I like that Musharraf seems to be making efforts to modernise his country and repeal some of the worst legislation, while forging alliances and declaring opposition to extremism. Also, he's improving women's rights - stating his commitment to ensuring women receive an equal education, stating that there is nothing in the Koran to mandate the wearing of the veil, and improving rape legislation. What would his political rivals bring to the table?
(I'm not telling you, I'm asking you.)



We'll never know, if he's allowed to suppress his opposition so blatantly.


Ah, I agree.

I can't completely disagree with you. We have been making the naive assumption that we can somehow get everyone to "see the light" and embrace democracy.

The point I'm trying to make is that it isn't working. Rather than being an example of how democracy can work in the middle east, it seems to be becoming an example of something else.


Absolutely, that's a good point. Although I find it strange when people talk about wanting an example of how democracy can work in the Middle East; it's such a diverse region, even if you find an example of how it can work in one country, that won't neccessarily generalise to the region. What works for Turkey might not work for Yemen.



MMMMMmmmmm because genocidal facism, oppressive regimes, and millienium long tribal battles are so damn cozy???? miao!!

Rafi

Rafi

Santa Monica, CA
January 2003

NOV 05, 2007 09:45 AM

Jennifer_ said:
People criticise Musharraf for not being democratic enough, but I don't know if complete democracy in Pakistan would be such a brilliant thing. Partly because I don't believe in the right of the majority to suppress the minority, and partly because I like to represent for Politeia.

It might be, but democracy in such a volatile country with a nuclear capacity could come with problems. Personally, I like that Musharraf seems to be making efforts to modernise his country and repeal some of the worst legislation, while forging alliances and declaring opposition to extremism. Also, he's improving women's rights - stating his commitment to ensuring women receive an equal education, stating that there is nothing in the Koran to mandate the wearing of the veil, and improving rape legislation. What would his political rivals bring to the table?
(I'm not telling you, I'm asking you.)



You're right about certain parts of that. At the moment, as bad as Musharraf is, there doesn't seem to be any significant opposition that would be significantly better. At this time, his main political foes are either fundamentalist Islamist parties, which would almost certainly be worse for human rights and the stability of the region, or (the largest) the Pakistan People's Party, led by former prime minister Bhutto. The PPP is generally more progressive on issues from social to economic (its emphasis is on women's rights and its fiscal policies are socialist); both reigns of Bhutto and the PPP, however, were marked by widespread corruption. Ultimately, Bhutto's administration never proposed any real legislation to end Hudood law, and it was under her authority that Pakistan propped up Taliban rule in Afghanistan.

Musharraf has made some progress in modernization and improving women's rights, but in other ways it has been more rhetoric than action, and in many lawless tribal regions, women's rights have seriously eroded during his term. To be fair, some of this is due to the perenially delicate balance he finds himself in, with any move towards reform posing the very real potentiality of rise-ups and/or assassination attempts from the fundamentalists.

Still, part of this lack of better alternatives is due to what we're seeing right now: with Musharraf quelching any and all opposition from opposition leaders and human rights groups while imposing military rule at the drop of a hat, he's certainly not fostering any type of climate for a viable, attractive opposition party to comfortably develop - and that's no accident on his part.

hadees

hadees

Austin, TX
December 2003

NOV 05, 2007 10:09 AM

SockPuppet said:
Remind me exactly what those commitments are, please.

The remaining good reason for the existence of NATO is to rein the US in, IMHO. Doesn't work very well. Frankly, Europe should be funding its own defence. But I don't really think that's in America's interest.



NATO nations are supposed to be providing troops.


Van Middelkoop has been very critical of some NATO member countries over their reluctance to put troops and equipment in harm's way.

"There is no such thing as a free ride to peace and security. Fair risk and burden-sharing remain the leading principles of this alliance," he said during a meeting of NATO defence ministers in the Netherlands in late October.


source.

The reason NATO exists isn't to "rein in the US" but rather to provide a military alliance in the case one or more of the NATO nations are attacked.

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