NEWS: Yet Another Hint From Europe?

POLITICS: Yet Another Hint From Europe?

While trying to light my cigarette this morning on a break during work (my Zippo was out of fuel, sadly), I came across this article (I was reading the print edition, of course). I found it very interesting. I've always felt that Europe is light-years ahead of the U.S. in certain respects, namely the social arena. And this might be another example.



For those of you with diminished attention spans, the article speaks of a $38 million dollar program the Dutch are instituting for schools and neighborhood in which they hope to stem the growth of right-wing nationalism and Islamic fundamentalism in their country. They're not fighting these groups--merely preventing new ones from forming. A rather novel idea, I'd say. Attacking the source of the problem, the root rather than the branches. Kill the body and the head will die.



After the 2004 death of filmmaker Theo Van Gogh by a Muslim extremist, the number of hate crimes in the Netherlands rose sharply. Many of these involved Muslims in retaliatory attacks by Dutch citizens (Note: 5.5% or about 1 million of the country's population is Muslim). Such a reaction is natural, I suppose, given the current geopolitical situation. After all, it seems like in today's lightning-fast, media-driven, consumerism-saturated world, where everyone has their 15 gigabytes of fame, you really have to do something extreme to get noticed and have your voice truly heard above the din.



But let's get back to The Program, as it were.



Stopping hatred before it starts, is essentially what they're doing. Teaching the youth (5 to 16 or 18, I'm assuming) that such radicalism and subsequent hate (terror?) crimes will not be tolerated in their society, and on a larger scale, the world. That's absolutely brilliant, I say. Yes, parents are also responsible for the rearing and teaching of their children, especially on an intrapersonal level. But so is the government, and especially on the interpersonal level (ah, there's the Democrat in me). After all, it's a global society now, and whether we like it or not, we're all hooked up to the same cable now--as close together as stations on a dial. A shock at one end will travel round, affecting everyone. The flapping of a butterfly's wings can cause a hurricane on the other side of the world, it seems.



I say bravo to the Dutch. I really hope their program works. Because as each new, successive generation inherits the planet (amid the cries of "It was broken when I got here!"), the problems and the solutions fall to them; they become the new stewards of society. There is a sense of duty and responsibility, I think, that they will accept. This planet is all we've got, and if the whole Human Comedy is to continue, we've got to live with each other as best we can--you and me, we're in this together now.



I don't know what the curriculum entails. I assume it's something along the lines of common sense: that in order for humanity to keep progressing, we've got to stop the formation of the radicals/fundamentalists of all stripes who wish to keep the status quo and drag us back into the Dark Ages because it's easier to just give in and not fight, it's more comfortable that way; change is bad. A static society is easier to control than a dynamic society.



I hope the Dutch kids go for this program. After all, the Netherlands is a very liberal country, it seems; we all know the stories about how Amsterdam is a creative and recreational capital, with its Red-Light District and 'coffeehouses' and other so-called 'hedonistic' venues. Hell, they have the brains to legalize all the things we good Americans consider bad and impure, and what do they get: a pretty laidback and liberal society. They're a beacon of social tolerance and they really get along with each other.



Could such a program work here in the U.S.? Maybe, I don't know. I mean, there's plenty of students with beards, but I really don't see our country moving towards the left end of the sociopolitical spectrum for a while--at least 20 years or more, when the twentysomethings of today hit their forties and get really active in national politics and keep the ideas of their youth. For great change does not come in leaps and bounds, it comes in baby steps. And in order for something of this nature to take place in such a puritanical country as America, we've got to wait for the old guard to fade away and let the young Turks take the reins. Yes, there will still be the right-wing holdovers of another time and another place hanging on and railing against the change (Hell, maybe we do need them, for balance, as Believers need Skeptics), but we're all heading for the same destination: the future. And we've already brought about such a globalized society that we're experiencing many other cultures and people who are much different than we are--what did we expect, for Them to be all like Us? And we're all in the same boat...if it sinks, we're all Doomed, so let's try and make the ride comfortable for everybody.



I say to the Dutch, you've got at least one American behind your noble efforts. I hope that one night, we can all go to sleep and wake up the next morning to find that the Dream has been realized.

If I could find a way , I would build a time machine . Then , I would go back in time and somehow , get my parents to settle and fuck in Amsterdam or Paris . Thereby birthing me into a liberal society , making this obviously backwards one seem a little more tolerable . Thanks Mom !

If the terrorists really hated freedom, the Netherlands would be dust -- David Cross

The reason this sounds like a waste of money for the most part is that the problem is pretty much one-sided.

Europeans for the most part allowed he Muslims into Europe with open arms because it was assumed they would attempt to integrate with the prevailing culture. Instead, the Muslim immigrants pretty much did what the Mexican immigrants did here, group together, refuse to integrate, and attempt to push their culture to the forefront by outbreeding the indigenous people. The only problem is that a portion of the Islamic population has goals that are extremely contrary to the attitudes n Europe.

I would say that in 20 years Europe will not like the position they are in, but I think that will happen anyways with a general decline in western cultures overall

Good for the Netherlands I say. You have to teach hatred, and as Americans fuck if we aren't just about the best teachers in the world, so maybe if we start teaching people how to not hate, it'll work out better for all of us.

Of course there is the aforementioned insidious plot to outbreed western culture which of course is dumb. I really don't think I've heard anything that dumb in a long time. Really, really dumb. Think Ricky Bobby dumb. I mean, why would groups of people living in arid, impoverished lands want to emigrate to more temperate climates with running water and the opportunities to work hard enough to give their kids a better life? What could be the appeal to that over say, spending August sweltering in the 130 degree sun near the equator being poor because some rich white assholes from a place called Texas just stole all your shit?

Yes, because we know "Just Say No!" was such a raging success here.

Granted, the Dutch are light years ahead of us in social programs so they will probably succeed where we would simply get a bunch of washed up football stars and give it the feeble multi-million dollar effort we normally do.

You are obtaining this fantastic piece of information from where, exactly?

Yeah, it's not like Europe has a tradition of white Christians being intolerant of anything.

Not really. Western Europe allowed immigrants from pretty much anywhere (including former colonies) to emigrate for purely financial reasons during the post-WW2 economic boom. When there were seemingly endless jobs to be had, an influx of cheap immigrant labor seemed like an incredibly good idea. Since very few if any of those nations extended full citizenship rights to those new immigrants, I doubt very much that they gave a fuck if they integrated with the prevailing culture or not, as long as they would work for cheap and not ask for the same rights and benefits that European welfare states gave to their citizens.

Wow, where to start?

Even if you ignore the roughly 1/4th of the United States where, historically, Mexican-Americans were pretty much "the indigenous people" before the United States expanded westward, do you really think that Mexican immigrants aren't integrating with American culture?

You do know that historically, first generation immigrants from anywhere "group together and refuse to integrate", right? Do you think Italian and Jewish immigrants to New York City in the 19th Century wound up all living in the same neighborhoods due to random chance?

Oh, and it's good to know that all the fault for new immigrants supposedly refusing to integrate falls on their shoulders.

Yeah, so why bother to try and reach the rest of them?

Yeah, it's been all downhill since American let in those subhuman, crime-prone, ill-tempered Irish and let them outbreed the decent civilized people, hasn't it?

Man, if you write any more about something you know so little and keep up the creepy xenophobia I think I might have to send you a friend request.

I mean really, seriously, what a load of hilarious crap.

'Europeans invited Muslims with open arms' - You so obviously just made that up without even thinking about it. Classic.

I do have something that I'd like you to clarify - mostly for my own amusement - what do you understand by 'intergration' and how would you say that muslm populations in say, ooh the UK might have failed to integrate under your own understanding?

Man, best post in a week, seriously dude. Even got a incredulous lol out of me.

Hahaha, I just read his comment again. So f-ing funny. Especially the last bit about them furiously trying to destroy European culture by having loads of kids.

Just read it again and I'm struggling to figure out what he even means now. There was actually an agenda on behalf of the muslims to push their culture 'to the forefront?' What does that even mean? Oh and 'indigenous people'? Where? Jesus Hippy Christ if I wasn't laughing I'd be crying.

You had me until the Mexican shit. You can't compare the two. It's too bad because you have a good point I think. The problem is Muslims are moving places, and then trying to impose their ideals onto the pre-existing moral and religious schema. A totally ridiculous example is that there was a huge controversy about the year of the pig in china. Muslims were getting upset because to them the pig is sacreligious etc. and they didn't like how the chinese were depicting the animal.

My two sense is, if you are going to immigrate somewhere you need to play by their rules and observe their laws, otherwise don't move there. Poor Theo.

Perhaps you missed those french riots a while back.

Or claims by french police that, well just read the article.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/05/wmuslims05.xml

Abiding by rules and laws is different to 'trying to integrate into the prevailing culture', which is what he was getting at.

Having people from another country / culture / religion and not expecting them to have to fully 'integrate' can be such a good opportunity - I live in a diverse and multi-cultural area and think my local community is much richer for it.
As long as each person has and wants an understanding of where the other is coming from, there is no need to demand that an 'immigrant' bends to the majority populations 'way of life', whatever that is.

Yeaaah... okay. What does that prove?

(The Daily Telegraph?) Fucking hell. You're obviously in an arena you don't understand. Give it up.

Yeah, the problems that the police are having in certain areas of France are a result of much more complicated issues.
Running around just saying 'The Muslims did it' is almost laughable.

Using it as proof that Muslims are trying to take over Europe is grade-A fucking hilarious.

People are entitled to get upset, no matter what country they have chosen to move to.
Now, it would be ridiculous if those people who were upset had actually taken extreme actions to change whatever it was they weren't happy with this, but you don't state that that is the case and I'm failing to see how anyone was 'imposing their ideals'.

Because, the Muslims are living there, and they have to see them! And also be around them!!

While I don't doubt that radical Islamic groups have a field day recruiting unemployed French Muslims living in poverty, you'd have to look at the unemployment and poverty as being part of the causes of civil unrest.

Also, most of France's Muslim population emigrated from France's colonies in North Africa, so it's not like France is simply the victim of evil Muslims showing up looking to impose a fundamentalist form of Sharia law. There is a bit of "you reap what you sow" going on as well.

+1

I wrote something a while back about Islamic schools in Bradford looking to combat extremism by teaching kids community values.

Not to like, um, bump my own thread shamelessly or anything.

Um... isn't this thread about a european response to a muslim murdering a european man for making a movie they didn't agree with? I feel like we are all referring to that. The difference is people in Holland are open and into diversity, whereas Muslim extremists believe that if you are not Muslim you are an infidel and it is ok to kill infidels.
Listen, I'm from SF, the PC capital of America, but it bothers me when people defend someone that would fucking kill them because of their bullshit religious beliefs, just because they don't want to harshly judge another culture and seem un-PC.
I'm not siding with the French Police or anything, it just seems easy for liberals to confuse their dislike for our current administration (ie Bush or whomever) with misguided empathy for religious extremists.
Maybe I should have said, if you can't move somewhere without wanting to murder the people there you shouldn't.

I really hope this program works. Government sponsored education ideas have flopped in the past, but this is one I think we sorely need.

It is scary sometimes walking around here to see people openly exhibiting extremist behavior. And it's not the Islamic population that worries me. It's the native Dutch. Political figures like
Geert Wilders and others are really galvanizing the right wing members of Dutch society. They prey on peoples paranoia and insecurity, creating a climate of fear that neo-nazi's and other extremists thrive on. People I consider much more dangerous, and a bigger threat to our society, than any Islamic group (even the ones with evil intentions).

Dutch culture is, on the whole, still very open and tolerant. It is the greatest strength this society posses. More and more however I see people here trying to set limits on how open we should be a how the level of tolerance suffers for it. I really hope this program teaches kids from a young age how important it is that they not give in to the fear and paranoia the extremist members of society want them to feel. I hope people on both sides of this cultural conflict learn that hate is an easy way out. It takes greater strength of character to embrace those who are different and accept them, than it takes to slam the door in their face.

What everyone here was saying, and what seems to have TOTALLY escaped you, is that not every Muslim is an extremist and that you can not judge an entire population due to the actions of a minority of it's members.

Is this is the same Holland where the government is considering a ban on wearing Muslim head scarves and burqas in public and the leader of the anti-immigration conservative political party the PVV wants to ban the Koran?