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MrStitches

MrStitches

Brooklyn, NY
November 2003

AUG 28, 2007 05:22 PM

I don't get this at all. What makes it legal for the government to do this sort of thing?

Chainlink

Chainlink

Key West, FL
August 2005

AUG 28, 2007 06:09 PM

yeah, I'm not sure how far this goes back but I think it really became popular during the Reagan years and the whole " War On Drugs" business. It's nothing new though. Not by a long shot.
It's certainly nothing to do with "Little King George%u2019s police state" as one poster in the link puts it.

MrStitches

MrStitches

Brooklyn, NY
November 2003

AUG 29, 2007 05:07 PM

chainlink said:
. It's nothing new though. Not by a long shot.
It's certainly nothing to do with "Little King George's police state" as one poster in the link puts it.



Yeah, I didn't think it was, but I can't imagine how the constitution allows for a person's property to be confiscated when there isn't even evidence that a crime was committed. It seems kind of crazy to me.

freshprncebelair

freshprncebelair

Ellicott City, MD
June 2004

AUG 29, 2007 05:39 PM

MrStitches said:

chainlink said:
. It's nothing new though. Not by a long shot.
It's certainly nothing to do with "Little King George's police state" as one poster in the link puts it.



Yeah, I didn't think it was, but I can't imagine how the constitution allows for a person's property to be confiscated when there isn't even evidence that a crime was committed. It seems kind of crazy to me.



Yet more reason the law system in this country is fucked. Im surprised we don't have more vigilante justice and mob lynchings of police

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

AUG 29, 2007 05:40 PM

chainlink said:
yeah, I'm not sure how far this goes back but I think it really became popular during the Reagan years and the whole " War On Drugs" business.


That's my understanding, from news articles at the time (RR was certainly President).

Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

AUG 31, 2007 02:37 PM

bald_eagle said:

oyaji said:
99% of the time that it is used it is used for perfectly reasonable and legitimate purposes, such as seizing assets of drug dealers.



That sounds a bit optimistic. Any source for the 99%?



Well if they weren't legitimate or reasonable, the government wouldn't do it, would they?

wink

Ascanius

Ascanius

USA
October 2006

AUG 31, 2007 02:51 PM

Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.

NickFaust

NickFaust

USA
April 2004

AUG 31, 2007 02:54 PM

Ascanius said:
Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.



The point of the question is that civil asset forfeiture happens before trial, before conviction. If you are acquitted, you can go before and administrative judge and try to get your shit back, or the money they got when they auctioned it (which is no where near its value.)

So, money or not, the law supposedly assumes that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Just not if the DEA is involved.

Ascanius

Ascanius

USA
October 2006

AUG 31, 2007 03:07 PM

NickFaust said:

Ascanius said:
Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.



The point of the question is that civil asset forfeiture happens before trial, before conviction. If you are acquitted, you can go before and administrative judge and try to get your shit back, or the money they got when they auctioned it (which is no where near its value.)

So, money or not, the law supposedly assumes that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Just not if the DEA is involved.



I'm not addressing the validity of the seizure. I'm addressing the validity of the article. It has a pretty clear axe to grind, and quite frankly I don't trust it.

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

AUG 31, 2007 03:53 PM

Ascanius said:
I'm not addressing the validity of the seizure. I'm addressing the validity of the article. It has a pretty clear axe to grind, and quite frankly I don't trust it.



True.

NickFaust

NickFaust

USA
April 2004

AUG 31, 2007 05:33 PM

Ascanius said:

NickFaust said:

Ascanius said:
Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.



The point of the question is that civil asset forfeiture happens before trial, before conviction. If you are acquitted, you can go before and administrative judge and try to get your shit back, or the money they got when they auctioned it (which is no where near its value.)

So, money or not, the law supposedly assumes that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Just not if the DEA is involved.



I'm not addressing the validity of the seizure. I'm addressing the validity of the article. It has a pretty clear axe to grind, and quite frankly I don't trust it.



EVERY article has an axe to grind. Even obituaries carry a message.

So, if that is your criterion for not trusting it, maybe you should put down the newspaper.

Or the bong.

MrStitches

MrStitches

Brooklyn, NY
November 2003

AUG 31, 2007 05:48 PM

Ascanius said:

NickFaust said:

Ascanius said:
Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.



The point of the question is that civil asset forfeiture happens before trial, before conviction. If you are acquitted, you can go before and administrative judge and try to get your shit back, or the money they got when they auctioned it (which is no where near its value.)

So, money or not, the law supposedly assumes that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Just not if the DEA is involved.



I'm not addressing the validity of the seizure. I'm addressing the validity of the article. It has a pretty clear axe to grind, and quite frankly I don't trust it.



Oh, it definitely does, it just happened to bring it to my attention is all. I think there is definitely something shady about a trucker with that kind of cash in his truck.

Ascanius

Ascanius

USA
October 2006

AUG 31, 2007 06:17 PM

NickFaust said:

Ascanius said:

NickFaust said:

Ascanius said:
Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.



The point of the question is that civil asset forfeiture happens before trial, before conviction. If you are acquitted, you can go before and administrative judge and try to get your shit back, or the money they got when they auctioned it (which is no where near its value.)

So, money or not, the law supposedly assumes that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Just not if the DEA is involved.



I'm not addressing the validity of the seizure. I'm addressing the validity of the article. It has a pretty clear axe to grind, and quite frankly I don't trust it.



EVERY article has an axe to grind. Even obituaries carry a message.

So, if that is your criterion for not trusting it, maybe you should put down the newspaper.

Or the bong.



FLAG

NickFaust

NickFaust

USA
April 2004

AUG 31, 2007 06:18 PM

MrStitches said:

Ascanius said:

NickFaust said:

Ascanius said:
Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.



The point of the question is that civil asset forfeiture happens before trial, before conviction. If you are acquitted, you can go before and administrative judge and try to get your shit back, or the money they got when they auctioned it (which is no where near its value.)

So, money or not, the law supposedly assumes that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Just not if the DEA is involved.



I'm not addressing the validity of the seizure. I'm addressing the validity of the article. It has a pretty clear axe to grind, and quite frankly I don't trust it.



Oh, it definitely does, it just happened to bring it to my attention is all. I think there is definitely something shady about a trucker with that kind of cash in his truck.



Yes, but the point is, regardless of how suspicious it is, the forfeiture laws basically kick in on arrest, not on conviction, and so this man is paying a penalty for a crime that he did not commit (if you assume that commission means that you are tried and convicted by a jury of your peers.)

Regardless of how biased the article is (and I stand by my assertion that objectivity is a myth) this is some fucked up shit.

MrStitches

MrStitches

Brooklyn, NY
November 2003

AUG 31, 2007 06:30 PM

NickFaust said:

MrStitches said:

Ascanius said:

NickFaust said:

Ascanius said:
Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.



The point of the question is that civil asset forfeiture happens before trial, before conviction. If you are acquitted, you can go before and administrative judge and try to get your shit back, or the money they got when they auctioned it (which is no where near its value.)

So, money or not, the law supposedly assumes that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Just not if the DEA is involved.



I'm not addressing the validity of the seizure. I'm addressing the validity of the article. It has a pretty clear axe to grind, and quite frankly I don't trust it.



Oh, it definitely does, it just happened to bring it to my attention is all. I think there is definitely something shady about a trucker with that kind of cash in his truck.



Yes, but the point is, regardless of how suspicious it is, the forfeiture laws basically kick in on arrest, not on conviction, and so this man is paying a penalty for a crime that he did not commit (if you assume that commission means that you are tried and convicted by a jury of your peers.)

Regardless of how biased the article is (and I stand by my assertion that objectivity is a myth) this is some fucked up shit.



I agree.
I'm just saying it's kind of shady. Then, there are also plenty of perfectly good reasons for a dude to have a bunch of cash.

Ascanius

Ascanius

USA
October 2006

AUG 31, 2007 06:42 PM

MrStitches said:

Oh, it definitely does, it just happened to bring it to my attention is all. I think there is definitely something shady about a trucker with that kind of cash in his truck.




A very brief overview of civil asset forfeiture I just yanked from an article about how the security fraud statute promulgated after the Enron fiasco should have included an asset forfeiture clause to allow the government to freeze the company's assets while it determines who was in the wrong:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)

A. Asset Forfeiture in Other Contexts

Forfeiture is a comprehensive term which refers to "[t]he divestiture of property without compensation" to the owner. [FN144] Applied in the context of punishment, it is
the legal process by which property[,] which was used unlawfully, or is the product of criminal activity, is seized and its title vested in the government: state, local or federal. [FN145]
No general forfeiture law exists. Each federal crime must have its own forfeiture provision written into the law. Today, there are more than 200 federal statutes which authorize a forfeiture sanction. [FN146] Most forfeiture actions in non-drug cases, however, proceed under either*349 section 981 of title 18 of the United States Code, which governs civil asset forfeiture actions, or section 982 of the same, which governs criminal asset forfeiture actions.
Asset forfeitures, by way of background, are deeply rooted in American history. The government's seizure of property used in, or derived from, a crime dates back to the Crown. Its use was based on the theory that a breach of common law, an offense to the King's peace, should deprive the transgressor of the right to own property. [FN147] During the seventeenth century, American colonial courts enforced English and local civil forfeiture statutes. One of the early acts of the First U.S. Congress following the ratification of the Constitution, in fact, was its enactment of forfeiture statutes for vessels and cargo involved in customs violations. [FN148]
Congress re-introduced the asset forfeiture sanction in 1970 in an effort to combat the rising drug trade and crime waves led by organized crime gangs. In 1970, Congress passed the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act, [FN149] which authorized drug-related asset forfeiture. [FN150] In order to wage the war on drugs, Congress sought to strike at the economic roots of the drug trade by divesting drug kingpins of their operating capital and profit. The range of forfeitable property expanded over the years to include all proceeds of a controlled substance transaction, whether direct or indirect, as well as all real property, moneys, negotiable instruments, and securities used or intended for use in the facilitation of the drug violation. [FN151]
The Organized Crime Control Act of 1970 (hereinafter "RICO") and related statutes [FN152] similarly authorized criminal asset forfeiture *350 for any offender who violates RICO section 1962. [FN153] In so legislating, Congress sought to expand efforts to combat organized crime's corruption of American businesses. It concluded that courts needed a means of wrestling economic control over the victimized business from the convicted racketeer; noting that too often incarcerating or fining defendants had little or no effect on their ability to run the business. [FN154] To that end, federal prosecutors, armed with RICO section 1963(a)(1), could obtain the forfeiture of "any interest the person has acquired or maintained [both tangible and intangible] in violation of [the prohibited activities of] section 1962." [FN155] However, since RICO forfeiture actions are in personam actions, the defendant must first be convicted of a RICO violation before any forfeiture can be ordered. The RICO conviction requires proof that the defendant used the proceeds of racketeering activity to acquire control of an enterprise, or used the racketeering activity to acquire or maintain control of an enterprise or to conduct its affairs. [FN156] It also requires proof that the defendant committed the two predicate acts, that those acts were part of a pattern, and that they had a particular impact upon the enterprise. [FN157] Consequently, use of this asset forfeiture provision may be limited when applied outside a narrow class of wrongdoers. [FN158]
Asset forfeiture also is authorized in money laundering cases. Although the Money Laundering Control Act of 1986 ("MLCA") [FN159] was *351 originally conceived as anti-drug legislation, [FN160] prosecutors typically rely upon its broad language and accompanying penalties to impose criminal liability on a variety of non-drug related wrongdoers (including white collar criminals). [FN161] Section 981 authorizes the civil asset forfeiture of property (real or personal) involved in, or traceable to, violations of the federal money laundering statutes, [FN162] among others, while section 982 authorizes the criminal asset forfeiture of property (real or personal) involved in, or traceable to, a money laundering offense. [FN163]
More recently, Congress employed the asset forfeiture sanction in response to the wave of insider trading scandals that marred Wall Street during the 1980s, as well as the savings and loan debacle of the 1980s and 90s. In each case, Congress enacted specific legislation designed to remove the economic motives of corporate insiders and bank fiduciaries who misuse, or foster the misuse of, their trusted positions for illegal gains. Congress adopted the Financial Institutions Reform, Recovery, and Enforcement Act (hereinafter "FIRREA") [FN164] in an effort to combat future savings and loan scandals. Viewing banking crimes as grave, Congress enhanced the existing criminal penalties to make those assets involved in, or traceable to, violations of banking crime statutes subject to both criminal and civil forfeitures, rather than only increasing the potential terms of imprisonment. [FN165] Not only did it amend sections 981 and 982 to require asset forfeitures by violators of the bank fraud and other banking crime statutes, but Congress also made bank fraud a predicate offense under the federal *352 racketeering statute ("RICO"), [FN166] thus ensuring that asset forfeiture would be ordered for convicted wrongdoers.
This approach had been similarly employed years earlier when Congress sought to combat rampant insider trading on Wall Street. At the time, it enacted the Insider Trading Sanctions Act ("ITSA") [FN167] and the Insider Trading and Securities Fraud Enforcement Act ("ITSFEA") [FN168] to combat the abuse of trust by insiders. Again, Congress targeted their economic motives and authorized the recovery of treble damages for profits gained and losses avoided. [FN169] In other words, violators were made to disgorge (as a monetary penalty) treble profits unlawfully gained, or those losses avoided by wrongdoers who traded while in possession of material nonpublic information obtained in breach of a fiduciary duty. As the aforementioned illustrates, Congress' failure to enact asset forfeiture legislation following the wave of corporate accounting frauds that occurred earlier this century is a striking departure from its past responses to criminal wrongdoing.
-DePaul Business & Commercial Law Journal

freshprncebelair

freshprncebelair

Ellicott City, MD
June 2004

SEP 01, 2007 06:32 AM

MrStitches said:

Ascanius said:

NickFaust said:

Ascanius said:
Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.



The point of the question is that civil asset forfeiture happens before trial, before conviction. If you are acquitted, you can go before and administrative judge and try to get your shit back, or the money they got when they auctioned it (which is no where near its value.)

So, money or not, the law supposedly assumes that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Just not if the DEA is involved.



I'm not addressing the validity of the seizure. I'm addressing the validity of the article. It has a pretty clear axe to grind, and quite frankly I don't trust it.



Oh, it definitely does, it just happened to bring it to my attention is all. I think there is definitely something shady about a trucker with that kind of cash in his truck.



What i've been told is that some truckers do this as a protective measure in case shit hits the fan with their truck and they need an expensive tow, expensive repair, money to tide them over until they complete another job. Truck drivers might not have the credit to warrant a 50k credit line, and additionally, repair places might not trust a check or anything but cash.

But the point is, why is carrying large amounts of cash around illegal? This is a free country. People should be allowed to use cash to do what they will to stay off the books, protect their assets, etc. The only compellng reason to not allow this is the countries failed drug war

Ascanius

Ascanius

USA
October 2006

SEP 01, 2007 08:44 AM

freshprncebelair said:
What i've been told is that some truckers do this as a protective measure in case shit hits the fan with their truck and they need an expensive tow, expensive repair, money to tide them over until they complete another job. Truck drivers might not have the credit to warrant a 50k credit line, and additionally, repair places might not trust a check or anything but cash.

But the point is, why is carrying large amounts of cash around illegal? This is a free country. People should be allowed to use cash to do what they will to stay off the books, protect their assets, etc. The only compellng reason to not allow this is the countries failed drug war



That's helpful information. Thanks for bringing something constructive to the discussion. I agree, carrying around a lot of cash shouldn't be illegal. In fact, it isn't illegal to the best of my knowledge, which is why I don't think we're getting even a fraction of the whole story here. It's my understanding that in order for the government to use civil asset forfeiture there needs to be a substantial link between that property and some criminal activity. It can do this even if the owner didn't know about the criminal activity, In order to hold the property beyond 90 days and to require a trial before returning the property the government must show that it is more likely than not that the property was used in some sort of criminal activity. Simply having the cash in the truck does not satisfy this requirement, I'm almost certain.

Anyway, here's a link to an article that does a much better job explaining the relevant law behind civil asset forfeiture than the one I already posted. I'm also going to spoiler some of the statutory language that allow civil asset forfeiture that explains why the government can't just go around seizing shit, or if it does, why it has to give them back pretty quickly and painlessly. This is from the federal code at 18 USC 983:

SPOILERS! (Click to view)
(1)(A)(i) Except as provided in clauses (ii) through (v), in any nonjudicial civil forfeiture proceeding under a civil forfeiture statute, with respect to which the Government is required to send written notice to interested parties, such notice shall be sent in a manner to achieve proper notice as soon as practicable, and in no case more than 60 days after the date of the seizure.

(F) If the Government does not send notice of a seizure of property in accordance with subparagraph (A) to the person from whom the property was seized, and no extension of time is granted, the Government shall return the property to that person without prejudice to the right of the Government to commence a forfeiture proceeding at a later time. The Government shall not be required to return contraband or other property that the person from whom the property was seized may not legally possess.
(2)(A) Any person claiming property seized in a nonjudicial civil forfeiture proceeding under a civil forfeiture statute may file a claim with the appropriate official after the seizure.
(B) A claim under subparagraph (A) may be filed not later than the deadline set forth in a personal notice letter (which deadline may be not earlier than 35 days after the date the letter is mailed), except that if that letter is not received, then a claim may be filed not later than 30 days after the date of final publication of notice of seizure.
(C) A claim shall--
(i) identify the specific property being claimed;
(ii) state the claimant's interest in such property; and
(iii) be made under oath, subject to penalty of perjury.
(D) A claim need not be made in any particular form. Each Federal agency conducting nonjudicial forfeitures under this section shall make claim forms generally available on request, which forms shall be written in easily understandable language.
(E) Any person may make a claim under subparagraph (A) without posting bond with respect to the property which is the subject of the claim.

(B) If the Government does not--
(i) file a complaint for forfeiture or return the property, in accordance with subparagraph (A); or
(ii) before the time for filing a complaint has expired--
(I) obtain a criminal indictment containing an allegation that the property is subject to forfeiture; and
(II) take the steps necessary to preserve its right to maintain custody of the property as provided in the applicable criminal forfeiture statute, the Government shall promptly release the property pursuant to regulations promulgated by the Attorney General, and may not take any further action to effect the civil forfeiture of such property in connection with the underlying offense.

(c) Burden of proof.--In a suit or action brought under any civil forfeiture statute for the civil forfeiture of any property--

(1) the burden of proof is on the Government to establish, by a preponderance of the evidence, that the property is subject to forfeiture;
(2) the Government may use evidence gathered after the filing of a complaint for forfeiture to establish, by a preponderance of the evidence, that property is subject to forfeiture; and
(3) if the Government's theory of forfeiture is that the property was used to commit or facilitate the commission of a criminal offense, or was involved in the commission of a criminal offense, the Government shall establish that there was a substantial connection between the property and the offense.

(d) Innocent owner defense.--

(1) An innocent owner's interest in property shall not be forfeited under any civil forfeiture statute. The claimant shall have the burden of proving that the claimant is an innocent owner by a preponderance of the evidence.
(2)(A) With respect to a property interest in existence at the time the illegal conduct giving rise to forfeiture took place, the term "innocent owner" means an owner who--
(i) did not know of the conduct giving rise to forfeiture; or
(ii) upon learning of the conduct giving rise to the forfeiture, did all that reasonably could be expected under the circumstances to terminate such use of the property.

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

SEP 01, 2007 10:39 AM

freshprncebelair said:

MrStitches said:

Ascanius said:

NickFaust said:

Ascanius said:
Why'd the trucker have $24,000 in his truck? I don't think we're getting the whole story in that article.



The point of the question is that civil asset forfeiture happens before trial, before conviction. If you are acquitted, you can go before and administrative judge and try to get your shit back, or the money they got when they auctioned it (which is no where near its value.)

So, money or not, the law supposedly assumes that you are innocent until proven guilty.

Just not if the DEA is involved.



I'm not addressing the validity of the seizure. I'm addressing the validity of the article. It has a pretty clear axe to grind, and quite frankly I don't trust it.



Oh, it definitely does, it just happened to bring it to my attention is all. I think there is definitely something shady about a trucker with that kind of cash in his truck.



What i've been told is that some truckers do this as a protective measure in case shit hits the fan with their truck and they need an expensive tow, expensive repair, money to tide them over until they complete another job. Truck drivers might not have the credit to warrant a 50k credit line, and additionally, repair places might not trust a check or anything but cash.

But the point is, why is carrying large amounts of cash around illegal? This is a free country. People should be allowed to use cash to do what they will to stay off the books, protect their assets, etc. The only compellng reason to not allow this is the countries failed drug war



Would a debit card not be a safer means of doing that tho? I mean imagine if your truck getrs broken into. I mean carrying around tens of thousands of dollars in cash just seems foolish to me when there are many more viable options.

Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

SEP 01, 2007 10:42 AM

Colinism said:
Would a debit card not be a safer means of doing that tho? I mean imagine if your truck getrs broken into. I mean carrying around tens of thousands of dollars in cash just seems foolish to me when there are many more viable options.



Having a debit card stolen do a lot worse to you than losing the cash. People go thousands of dollars into debt on debit card fraud. And banks aren't nearly as good as credit card companies at handling stolen cards.

Colinism

Colinism

Atlanta, GA
July 2005

SEP 01, 2007 10:44 AM

Cigarette said:

Colinism said:
Would a debit card not be a safer means of doing that tho? I mean imagine if your truck getrs broken into. I mean carrying around tens of thousands of dollars in cash just seems foolish to me when there are many more viable options.



Having a debit card stolen do a lot worse to you than losing the cash. People go thousands of dollars into debt on debit card fraud. And banks aren't nearly as good as credit card companies at handling stolen cards.



Fair enough, but my point was just that if you have 24,000 in cash it would be safer in the bank and you could use a credit or debit card to pay for things.

Chainlink

Chainlink

Key West, FL
August 2005

SEP 01, 2007 06:45 PM

MrStitches said:

chainlink said:
. It's nothing new though. Not by a long shot.
It's certainly nothing to do with "Little King George's police state" as one poster in the link puts it.



Yeah, I didn't think it was, but I can't imagine how the constitution allows for a person's property to be confiscated when there isn't even evidence that a crime was committed. It seems kind of crazy to me.



Maybe one of our esteemed attorneys can correct me where I'm wrong or elaborate on the details but if I remember correctly, as it was explained to me back when, as much as you would like to extent certain rights and protections afforded to you by the Constitution to your property, your property is not protected the same way.

Your property does not have the right to a speedy trial, to be presumed innocent or have the right to representation. Among many other things.

And so the authorities have this "loophole" as it were , for confiscating your property without much cause and without leaving you much recourse.

I do agree with Oyaji to a certain degree in that I think for the dramatic majority it is applied reasonably. But I do worry for even the small percentage of abuses, because it does leave so little recourse and also it seems like if someone is such a giant criminal and the authorities know it with enough confidence to take everything they own and destroy their lives , they should be able to prove the person is criminal not just the property, fairly in court.

SockPuppet

SockPuppet

I'm lost
July 2006

SEP 02, 2007 04:47 PM

chainlink said:

MrStitches said:

chainlink said:
. It's nothing new though. Not by a long shot.
It's certainly nothing to do with "Little King George's police state" as one poster in the link puts it.



Yeah, I didn't think it was, but I can't imagine how the constitution allows for a person's property to be confiscated when there isn't even evidence that a crime was committed. It seems kind of crazy to me.



Maybe one of our esteemed attorneys can correct me where I'm wrong or elaborate on the details but if I remember correctly, as it was explained to me back when, as much as you would like to extent certain rights and protections afforded to you by the Constitution to your property, your property is not protected the same way.

Your property does not have the right to a speedy trial, to be presumed innocent or have the right to representation. Among many other things.

And so the authorities have this "loophole" as it were , for confiscating your property without much cause and without leaving you much recourse.

I do agree with Oyaji to a certain degree in that I think for the dramatic majority it is applied reasonably. But I do worry for even the small percentage of abuses, because it does leave so little recourse and also it seems like if someone is such a giant criminal and the authorities know it with enough confidence to take everything they own and destroy their lives , they should be able to prove the person is criminal not just the property, fairly in court.



If that's right, I'm surprised the NRA aren't all over it.... the feds can confiscate guns if they want to, no?

Cigarette

Cigarette

Cleveland, OH
April 2004

SEP 02, 2007 10:15 PM

chainlink said:
Maybe one of our esteemed attorneys can correct me where I'm wrong or elaborate on the details but if I remember correctly, as it was explained to me back when, as much as you would like to extent certain rights and protections afforded to you by the Constitution to your property, your property is not protected the same way.

Your property does not have the right to a speedy trial, to be presumed innocent or have the right to representation. Among many other things.

And so the authorities have this "loophole" as it were , for confiscating your property without much cause and without leaving you much recourse.



I would think that the Fourth Amendment would cover that.