America considers all Pakistanis to be potential terrorists

Cross posted from the UK politics group.

Apparently the British people in there would like to hear what the average American has to say on this.

US 'wants British Pakistanis to have entry visas'.

The United States seeks to break Britain down along the lines of ethnic groups and treat us with varying levels of suspicion accordingly.

If you think that alienation and discrimination is the way to tackle deep rooted societal problems, there's probably a very highly paid job waiting for you formulating US immigration policy. If they let you in.

The Foreign Office can resist the idea all they like, but if the US wants to do it they'll do it

It makes me sick to my stomach.

This is not what America is supposed to be.

It's a fucking disgusting, racist, poorly thought-out over reaction dreamt up by an asshole Bush appointee that's not being covered in the states with any great depth.

This would be an awful measure if it was being seriously considered - although I''m not sure who, if anyone, is actually considering it at the moment (the article didn't make that clear). Its unfair and would encourage people to become terrorists by insulting and marginalising them.

But - is it that surprising/different from current US immigration policy? Is there really a huge difference between their current policy of saying Pakistanis have their entry into the States restricted, and saying that British Pakistanis will have restricted entry?

Perhaps it's not surprising, but there is a difference. Current policy restricts the entry of an entire nation of people to the United States. This proposal would restrict the entry of people of only one specific ethnic-background, within a nation of people, thus denying them rights that are given to all other UK citizens. That is discrimination at its most blatant and will certainly alienate those at the raw end of the proposed policy.

The notion of dividing us by our racial background is both insulting and frightening in the message that it conveys about the current US government's mindset. All British citizens are just that, regardless of their ethnic heritage and should be treated accordingly.

I thought they were still only doing it based on citizenship, rather than race - just restricting people with dual British and Pakistani citizenship.

I'm a caucasian, British person but if I also had dual Pakistani citizenship, this law would apply to me. So, it isn't any more racist than the old law of restricting people with Pakistani citizenship, its just more extensive.

(I'm not trying to defend the policy at all, though, I think both the current and proposed immigration laws are shambolic and bigoted)

Apparently this proposal doesn't mention people with dual British and Pakistani citizenship, but would include British citizens "of Pakistani origin".

Really? Well, I guess I stand corrected ... that is racist. Although I would like to see who is actually proposing this law, from the article it doesn't sound like its being seriously considered by anybody.

According to a New York Times article, it's being proposed by Michael Chertoff:

"In recent months, the homeland security secretary, Michael Chertoff, has opened talks with the government here on how to curb the access of British citizens of Pakistani origin to the United States."

I'd also be interested in which 'US officials' agree with Michael Chertoff and I'd like to think that nobody would consider it, but the fact that the US homeland security secretary has already approached the Foreign Office and held talks about this idea indicates that it already has some backing within the US government.

not to get overly semantic, but i don't think "british pakistani" or "pakistani" is an ethnicity or race. but i know what you mean

It is an ethnicity.

also, as a side note, right after this went public, officials from both the british and US governments issued a flurry of denials

and semi-denials.

really? i thought 'pakistani' was a nationality. is that not correct? i thought there were many ethnicities within pakistan

'Pakistani' is a nationality, but if a British citizen's family originally hails from Pakistan, that that is regarded as his/her ethnic origin. In the same way, I am a British citizen because I was born here, by race I am Caucasian but my ethnic origin is Irish. That is the box I tick under the heading 'Ethnic Origin' on every official document. Perhaps it's not accurate, but that is how the forms define it at least.

This is an appaling idea, but unfortunately I think you're right. I don't see how the British government could do anything to stop it. I just hope they put up a fight.

This idea is so anti-Pakistani and racist, you'd think it was British!

I wonder how they're going to define Pakistani origin. Are they going go all 'Final Solution' on it and define it as having a Pakistani grandparent? And why aren't they expanding it to other areas of the Middle East and Africa? If they're going to discriminate against Pakistanis, why not Iranians and Somalis?

those are some nutty forms. i gotta get me some

They do apply it to other areas. This is specifically referring to the visa waiver program. Citizens of most countries are required to apply for a visa to enter the United States. But there are a handful of countries that are exempt from that, Britain being one of them. So currently someone who is a citizen of, for example, Pakistan needs to apply for a visa, someone who is a citizen of Britain doesn't. It's Britain's exemption that is, apparently, being scrutinized. Might all Britons eventually have to apply for a visa to enter the US?

we could retaliate and stop all dumb arse US politicians from entering the UK

I know that - sorry, I think I misphrased my question. I wasn't talking about Iranians, I was talking about British-Iranians and British-Somalis (etc) that are currrently covered by the visa-waiver program, in the same way British-Pakistanis are. Basically, if they're excluding British-Pakistanis, why aren't they excluding British-Egyptians or Brit-Syrians?

I believe Jenni was referring to British nationals of Somali and Iranian origin, rather than Somali and Iranian nationals. Edit: Ah, she already replied.

You know, I'd feel much better if Michael Chertoff and Co. had proposed that all British people should apply for visas. It's the concept of dividing the British and treating one certain group a different way to the others that I find offensive. It's true that having to apply for visas would be most inconvenient, but I'd get over that as long as the rule was the same for everyone.

I know I'm taking the bait here and I don't want to seem like I have any delusions about our own home-grown bigotry...

But. You and I both know that was a pretty hollow comment, right? I mean, it sounded good, but was pretty stupid.