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Glassmachine

Glassmachine

United Kingdom
November 2004

MAY 03, 2007 05:45 AM

Cross posted from the UK politics group.

Apparently the British people in there would like to hear what the average American has to say on this.

US 'wants British Pakistanis to have entry visas'.

The United States seeks to break Britain down along the lines of ethnic groups and treat us with varying levels of suspicion accordingly.


The American government wants to impose travel restrictions on British citizens of Pakistani origin because of concerns about terrorism, according to a report today.



But today the Foreign Office made it clear would resist the idea. It said it would oppose any attempt to exclude particular ethnic groups from the US visa waiver scheme that allows citizens from 27 countries, including the UK, to travel to the US without a visa for up to 90 days.




If you think that alienation and discrimination is the way to tackle deep rooted societal problems, there's probably a very highly paid job waiting for you formulating US immigration policy. If they let you in.

spamtwo

spamtwo

United Kingdom
April 2006

MAY 03, 2007 06:05 AM

The Foreign Office can resist the idea all they like, but if the US wants to do it they'll do it

RudieCantFail

RudieCantFail

Baton Rouge, LA
January 2006

MAY 03, 2007 06:16 AM

Glassmachine said:
Apparently the British people in there would like to hear what the average American has to say on this.



It makes me sick to my stomach.

This is not what America is supposed to be.

Coliwali

Coliwali

I'm lost
February 2003

MAY 03, 2007 07:56 AM

It's a fucking disgusting, racist, poorly thought-out over reaction dreamt up by an asshole Bush appointee that's not being covered in the states with any great depth.

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

MAY 03, 2007 08:43 AM

This would be an awful measure if it was being seriously considered - although I''m not sure who, if anyone, is actually considering it at the moment (the article didn't make that clear). Its unfair and would encourage people to become terrorists by insulting and marginalising them.

But - is it that surprising/different from current US immigration policy? Is there really a huge difference between their current policy of saying Pakistanis have their entry into the States restricted, and saying that British Pakistanis will have restricted entry?

Iseult

Iseult

United Kingdom
September 2005

MAY 03, 2007 09:12 AM

Jenni said:
But - is it that surprising/different from current US immigration policy? Is there really a huge difference between their current policy of saying Pakistanis have their entry into the States restricted, and saying that British Pakistanis will have restricted entry?


Perhaps it's not surprising, but there is a difference. Current policy restricts the entry of an entire nation of people to the United States. This proposal would restrict the entry of people of only one specific ethnic-background, within a nation of people, thus denying them rights that are given to all other UK citizens. That is discrimination at its most blatant and will certainly alienate those at the raw end of the proposed policy.

The notion of dividing us by our racial background is both insulting and frightening in the message that it conveys about the current US government's mindset. All British citizens are just that, regardless of their ethnic heritage and should be treated accordingly.

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

MAY 03, 2007 09:40 AM

Lissom said:
Current policy restricts the entry of an entire nation of people to the United States. This proposal would restrict the entry of people of only one specific ethnic-background, within a nation of people, thus denying them rights that are given to all other UK citizens.


I thought they were still only doing it based on citizenship, rather than race - just restricting people with dual British and Pakistani citizenship.

I'm a caucasian, British person but if I also had dual Pakistani citizenship, this law would apply to me. So, it isn't any more racist than the old law of restricting people with Pakistani citizenship, its just more extensive.

(I'm not trying to defend the policy at all, though, I think both the current and proposed immigration laws are shambolic and bigoted)

Uncognitive

Uncognitive

Brooklyn, NY
May 2003

MAY 03, 2007 09:57 AM

Jenni said:
I thought they were still only doing it based on citizenship, rather than race - just restricting people with dual British and Pakistani citizenship.



Apparently this proposal doesn't mention people with dual British and Pakistani citizenship, but would include British citizens "of Pakistani origin".

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

MAY 03, 2007 10:09 AM

Uncognitive said:
Apparently this proposal doesn't mention people with dual British and Pakistani citizenship, but would include British citizens "of Pakistani origin".


Really? Well, I guess I stand corrected ... that is racist. Although I would like to see who is actually proposing this law, from the article it doesn't sound like its being seriously considered by anybody.

Uncognitive

Uncognitive

Brooklyn, NY
May 2003

MAY 03, 2007 10:19 AM

Jenni said:

Uncognitive said:
Apparently this proposal doesn't mention people with dual British and Pakistani citizenship, but would include British citizens "of Pakistani origin".


Really? Well, I guess I stand corrected ... that is racist. Although I would like to see who is actually proposing this law, from the article it doesn't sound like its being seriously considered by anybody.



According to a New York Times article, it's being proposed by Michael Chertoff:

"In recent months, the homeland security secretary, Michael Chertoff, has opened talks with the government here on how to curb the access of British citizens of Pakistani origin to the United States."

Iseult

Iseult

United Kingdom
September 2005

MAY 03, 2007 10:23 AM

Jenni said:

Uncognitive said:
Apparently this proposal doesn't mention people with dual British and Pakistani citizenship, but would include British citizens "of Pakistani origin".


Really? Well, I guess I stand corrected ... that is racist. Although I would like to see who is actually proposing this law, from the article it doesn't sound like its being seriously considered by anybody.


I'd also be interested in which 'US officials' agree with Michael Chertoff and I'd like to think that nobody would consider it, but the fact that the US homeland security secretary has already approached the Foreign Office and held talks about this idea indicates that it already has some backing within the US government.

midfuckepiphany

midfuckepiphany

Niue
August 2004

MAY 03, 2007 10:32 AM

Lissom said:

This proposal would restrict the entry of people of only one specific ethnic-background, within a nation of people, thus denying them rights that are given to all other UK citizens. That is discrimination at its most blatant and will certainly alienate those at the raw end of the proposed policy.

The notion of dividing us by our racial background is both insulting and frightening in the message that it conveys about the current US government's mindset. All British citizens are just that, regardless of their ethnic heritage and should be treated accordingly.



not to get overly semantic, but i don't think "british pakistani" or "pakistani" is an ethnicity or race. but i know what you mean smile

Iseult

Iseult

United Kingdom
September 2005

MAY 03, 2007 10:36 AM

midfuckepiphany said:

Lissom said:

This proposal would restrict the entry of people of only one specific ethnic-background, within a nation of people, thus denying them rights that are given to all other UK citizens. That is discrimination at its most blatant and will certainly alienate those at the raw end of the proposed policy.

The notion of dividing us by our racial background is both insulting and frightening in the message that it conveys about the current US government's mindset. All British citizens are just that, regardless of their ethnic heritage and should be treated accordingly.



not to get overly semantic, but i don't think "british pakistani" or "pakistani" is an ethnicity or race. but i know what you mean smile


It is an ethnicity.

midfuckepiphany

midfuckepiphany

Niue
August 2004

MAY 03, 2007 10:37 AM

Uncognitive said:

Jenni said:

Uncognitive said:
Apparently this proposal doesn't mention people with dual British and Pakistani citizenship, but would include British citizens "of Pakistani origin".


Really? Well, I guess I stand corrected ... that is racist. Although I would like to see who is actually proposing this law, from the article it doesn't sound like its being seriously considered by anybody.



According to a New York Times article, it's being proposed by Michael Chertoff:

"In recent months, the homeland security secretary, Michael Chertoff, has opened talks with the government here on how to curb the access of British citizens of Pakistani origin to the United States."



also, as a side note, right after this went public, officials from both the british and US governments issued a flurry of denials


``The New York Times story ... is incorrect,'' a British Foreign Office spokesman said. ``It does not represent British government policy, nor would it be an acceptable proposal.''



and semi-denials.


A spokesman for the U.S. Department of Homeland Security also said there were ``inaccuracies'' in the story.


midfuckepiphany

midfuckepiphany

Niue
August 2004

MAY 03, 2007 10:39 AM

Lissom said:

midfuckepiphany said:

Lissom said:

This proposal would restrict the entry of people of only one specific ethnic-background, within a nation of people, thus denying them rights that are given to all other UK citizens. That is discrimination at its most blatant and will certainly alienate those at the raw end of the proposed policy.

The notion of dividing us by our racial background is both insulting and frightening in the message that it conveys about the current US government's mindset. All British citizens are just that, regardless of their ethnic heritage and should be treated accordingly.



not to get overly semantic, but i don't think "british pakistani" or "pakistani" is an ethnicity or race. but i know what you mean smile


It is an ethnicity.



really? i thought 'pakistani' was a nationality. is that not correct? i thought there were many ethnicities within pakistan

Iseult

Iseult

United Kingdom
September 2005

MAY 03, 2007 10:47 AM

midfuckepiphany said:

Lissom said:

midfuckepiphany said:

Lissom said:

This proposal would restrict the entry of people of only one specific ethnic-background, within a nation of people, thus denying them rights that are given to all other UK citizens. That is discrimination at its most blatant and will certainly alienate those at the raw end of the proposed policy.

The notion of dividing us by our racial background is both insulting and frightening in the message that it conveys about the current US government's mindset. All British citizens are just that, regardless of their ethnic heritage and should be treated accordingly.



not to get overly semantic, but i don't think "british pakistani" or "pakistani" is an ethnicity or race. but i know what you mean smile


It is an ethnicity.



really? i thought 'pakistani' was a nationality. is that not correct? i thought there were many ethnicities within pakistan


'Pakistani' is a nationality, but if a British citizen's family originally hails from Pakistan, that that is regarded as his/her ethnic origin. In the same way, I am a British citizen because I was born here, by race I am Caucasian but my ethnic origin is Irish. That is the box I tick under the heading 'Ethnic Origin' on every official document. Perhaps it's not accurate, but that is how the forms define it at least.

Hunkpapa

Hunkpapa

United Kingdom
June 2004

MAY 03, 2007 11:00 AM

rabidrabbit said:
The Foreign Office can resist the idea all they like, but if the US wants to do it they'll do it



This is an appaling idea, but unfortunately I think you're right. I don't see how the British government could do anything to stop it. I just hope they put up a fight.

PointBlank

PointBlank

New York, NY
November 2004

MAY 03, 2007 11:14 AM

This idea is so anti-Pakistani and racist, you'd think it was British!

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

MAY 03, 2007 11:26 AM

Uncognitive said:
According to a New York Times article, it's being proposed by Michael Chertoff:

"In recent months, the homeland security secretary, Michael Chertoff, has opened talks with the government here on how to curb the access of British citizens of Pakistani origin to the United States."


I wonder how they're going to define Pakistani origin. Are they going go all 'Final Solution' on it and define it as having a Pakistani grandparent? And why aren't they expanding it to other areas of the Middle East and Africa? If they're going to discriminate against Pakistanis, why not Iranians and Somalis?

midfuckepiphany

midfuckepiphany

Niue
August 2004

MAY 03, 2007 11:43 AM

Lissom said:

midfuckepiphany said:

Lissom said:

midfuckepiphany said:

Lissom said:

This proposal would restrict the entry of people of only one specific ethnic-background, within a nation of people, thus denying them rights that are given to all other UK citizens. That is discrimination at its most blatant and will certainly alienate those at the raw end of the proposed policy.

The notion of dividing us by our racial background is both insulting and frightening in the message that it conveys about the current US government's mindset. All British citizens are just that, regardless of their ethnic heritage and should be treated accordingly.



not to get overly semantic, but i don't think "british pakistani" or "pakistani" is an ethnicity or race. but i know what you mean smile


It is an ethnicity.



really? i thought 'pakistani' was a nationality. is that not correct? i thought there were many ethnicities within pakistan


'Pakistani' is a nationality, but if a British citizen's family originally hails from Pakistan, that that is regarded as his/her ethnic origin. In the same way, I am a British citizen because I was born here, by race I am Caucasian but my ethnic origin is Irish. That is the box I tick under the heading 'Ethnic Origin' on every official document. Perhaps it's not accurate, but that is how the forms define it at least.



those are some nutty forms. i gotta get me some

midfuckepiphany

midfuckepiphany

Niue
August 2004

MAY 03, 2007 11:57 AM

Jenni said:
And why aren't they expanding it to other areas of the Middle East and Africa? If they're going to discriminate against Pakistanis, why not Iranians and Somalis?



They do apply it to other areas. This is specifically referring to the visa waiver program. Citizens of most countries are required to apply for a visa to enter the United States. But there are a handful of countries that are exempt from that, Britain being one of them. So currently someone who is a citizen of, for example, Pakistan needs to apply for a visa, someone who is a citizen of Britain doesn't. It's Britain's exemption that is, apparently, being scrutinized. Might all Britons eventually have to apply for a visa to enter the US?

spamtwo

spamtwo

United Kingdom
April 2006

MAY 03, 2007 11:58 AM

hunkpapa said:

rabidrabbit said:
The Foreign Office can resist the idea all they like, but if the US wants to do it they'll do it



This is an appaling idea, but unfortunately I think you're right. I don't see how the British government could do anything to stop it. I just hope they put up a fight.



we could retaliate and stop all dumb arse US politicians from entering the UK

Jennifer_

Jennifer_

Venezuela
November 2006

MAY 03, 2007 12:15 PM

midfuckepiphany said:

Jenni said:
And why aren't they expanding it to other areas of the Middle East and Africa? If they're going to discriminate against Pakistanis, why not Iranians and Somalis?



They do apply it to other areas. This is specifically referring to the visa waiver program.


I know that - sorry, I think I misphrased my question. I wasn't talking about Iranians, I was talking about British-Iranians and British-Somalis (etc) that are currrently covered by the visa-waiver program, in the same way British-Pakistanis are. Basically, if they're excluding British-Pakistanis, why aren't they excluding British-Egyptians or Brit-Syrians?

Iseult

Iseult

United Kingdom
September 2005

MAY 03, 2007 12:16 PM

midfuckepiphany said:

Jenni said:
And why aren't they expanding it to other areas of the Middle East and Africa? If they're going to discriminate against Pakistanis, why not Iranians and Somalis?



They do apply it to other areas. This is specifically referring to the visa waiver program. Citizens of most countries are required to apply for a visa to enter the United States. But there are a handful of countries that are exempt from that, Britain being one of them. So currently someone who is a citizen of, for example, Pakistan needs to apply for a visa, someone who is a citizen of Britain doesn't. It's Britain's exemption that is, apparently, being scrutinized. Might all Britons eventually have to apply for a visa to enter the US?


I believe Jenni was referring to British nationals of Somali and Iranian origin, rather than Somali and Iranian nationals. Edit: Ah, she already replied.

You know, I'd feel much better if Michael Chertoff and Co. had proposed that all British people should apply for visas. It's the concept of dividing the British and treating one certain group a different way to the others that I find offensive. It's true that having to apply for visas would be most inconvenient, but I'd get over that as long as the rule was the same for everyone.

Glassmachine

Glassmachine

United Kingdom
November 2004

MAY 03, 2007 12:27 PM

PointBlank said:
This idea is so anti-Pakistani and racist, you'd think it was British!



I know I'm taking the bait here and I don't want to seem like I have any delusions about our own home-grown bigotry...

But. You and I both know that was a pretty hollow comment, right? I mean, it sounded good, but was pretty stupid.

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