should whites be able to display pride in their race,culture, etc.?

this was inspired by the segregated prom threads, which i am not supportive of at all...screw those backwoods hillbillies

anyhow, i've noticed that the only racial purists that receive any negative criticism are the whites. its okay for blacks to have "black history month", the united negro college fund, etc., and i noticed a car tag the other day that read "AZN PRID" or something to that extent...but if a well-known white person mentions something which has maybe 0.00000001% of racist content in it, the media has a field day with it, and you hear about it for days...and also the incident at a frat party at Auburn University in which several students dressed up as KKK members/wore blackface and afros, and after the pictures were discovered, they got in BIG trouble-the students were suspended, forced to apologize publicly, etc. hell, even the whole AU chapter of that fraternity was punished (IT WAS A FUCKING JOKE, GET A SENSE OF HUMOR)

and arent black colleges/fraternities a form of segregation?

i'm not racist or anything, nor do i care about the "preservation of the white race" or any of that garbage...the way i see it is that we're all human, we should learn to coexist with one another and forget about our "culture" and all of this other crap from the past that means nothing today...i just think that if the blacks, hispanics, asians, etc. should be able to show pride in their culture and past ways of life, then EVERYONE should be able to...

sorry for the rambling, i'm tired.

Being "white" covers a whole lot of different backgrounds. I don't think there is anything wrong with Irish pride day, or PPPs (polish pride parades), or stuff like that. But in my area white pride consists of a bunch of hicks in pickup trucks with confederate flags and lots of BEER. When I see a confederate flag I don’t really associate that with anything to be proud of. I'm sure something good came out of the old south (just don’t ask me to name anything), but that flag pretty much makes me thing of racism and slavery.

Also, one of my realities (by marriage only) dressed up as Hitler for Halloween and was driven around my neighborhood in an old camo Jeep. WHITE PRIDE at its best.

I don't think there's inherently anything wrong with wanting to display pride in your heritage, be it Caucausian, African, Asian, whatever.

The problem I think comes in how that pride is expressed. The "white pride" groups that get the most attention are rascist groups, which advocate white supremacy. Supremacy being the key word. They stress that their heritage is somehow better than anyone else's. Now, I know that there are groups like this for other cultures, not just whites.

But on the other hand, I also know there are groups who advocate cultural pride in peaceful, non-rascist ways. There are various clubs across the world celebrating national pride for the love and appreciation of their culture, not to try to preach hate against others.

So in short...yes, I think whites should be able to display pride in their culture, race, etc, as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of anyone else's culture.

Love who you are and where you come from, just don't hate others because of where they're from.

Well, I think the argument usually goes, there's black history month because the other 11 months are basically white history months.

One of my pet peeves, though, is revisionist history. If you look at any of your little bros high school textbooks nowadays, they'll have a full page article on some black/asian/mexican or woman who did something that if a white male had done it, it wouldn't even be worthy of mentioning at all. I don't think I'm making my point very well, but I hope you know what I mean.

i want to make a
W E T

That hurt



[Edited on May 05, 2003 by Xremote]

Why are there "black colleges" and frats? Look at your history books.Why are there scholarships for minorities? Look at your history books. Why is there so much anger in this country? Look at your history books. Look at how people reacted when Tiger Woods was winning all the "white" dominate golf events. They were saying, "Noooooooooooo!"

Yes, it sucks, and there's tons of shit our schools don't teach about why racism occurs. We live in a "Bi-Polar" society. Basically "White", then everyone else... Have you ever participated in the U.S. Census? Read.....

I've learned to live with the crap that exists.


[Edited on May 05, 2003 by ebin]

First of all, I love that you pointed out that 11 months out of the year is White History Month because it's true.

2nd of all, those little inserts in the history books are just PC bullshit that does 2 things:
1) it marginalizes minority groups "Hey look kids, there ARE black people and women and etc etc etc in this book, SEE, they have their own purple pages... they're not a NORMAL part of yr history, though, that's why they're in the magic box above the REAL paragraph..."

2) Leaves out the very real accomplishments that minority groups have achieved. I mean, if I hear the insignificant fact that George Washington Carver (a black man!) invented peanut butter (who DOESN'T love that, right?) one more time I will die in a fit of screaming. There's *so much* actual minority history out there that textbooks are ignoring... mainly because they don't *want* history re-written in a fashion that doesn't make it seem like straight, wealthy, white men shaped the entire world.

/rant

Well, nothing like a noncontroversial topic, eh?

It's hardly "racism" to notice the enormous, titanic double-standard in play when it comes to expressions of racial/ethnic pride.

It's not enough, it seems, for Whites to be equal-minded and not practice racism. It's not enough for them to acknowledge the wrongs of the past and seek to right them.

It seems that our ongoing racial mass-neurosis now requires us to think and speak of White Culture - as far as it is permissable to admit it exists at all - as something only to be apologized for and felt guilty about.

The politically-correct, "sensitive" position enthroned in most of academia (and quite a bit of the media) is that any awareness or expression of "Whiteness" is despicable racism unless the White(s) in question are falling over themselves to apologize for past or present-day wrongdoing.

In other words, you can say "As a White person, I am ashamed of my people" and that's fine. But heaven help you if you say, "As I White person, I am PROUD of my people." You might as well burn a cross.

This is why expressions of group identity and collective interest that don't even raise an eyebrow when voiced by a non-White often trigger hysterical reactions when a White face speaks them.

Think I'm kidding? Try it out on the nearest PC/Leftist you can find. I'm not talking about spouting Aryan Supremacy horseshit - just make some approving general comment to them about White/European cultures and what they've given to the world. Watch their eyes when you say it. Always good for a laugh.

This feeds directly into peoples' politics, too. Just look at how the whole "diversity" thing works...

Have you noticed how "diversity" has become a codeword for "There are too many White people here?" Nobody suggests that the NBA is "too Black" or that the professions of law and medicine have become "too Jewish," yet any company, group, team, club, or organization of any kind that is mostly White is deemed "exclusive" and insufficiently "diverse."

It's as if the mere presence of White people is a "problem" that must be "solved," regardless of whether or not there is actually is any racially-based exclusion going on.

It's hard not to notice how so many "anti-racists" have come full circle and now traffic in the same kinds of thinking as the bigots they claim to oppose.

Thank you, I'm glad that someone else notices this too. I hate identity politics, and I hate that our children are being taught to think of themselves as hyphen-americans. Just Americans, people! Just people.

And I hate that even I have racist thoughts that this culture has taught me to have. I'm walking down the street at night and a black guy is walking behind me. Makes me nervous! And I HATE that it makes me nervous just because he's black and male! I hate that I'm watching MTV and I see the new Roots video and I think for second, wow, for black guys, they can rock pretty good. Then I realize what I just thought and I want to vomit. I'm sure everyone of every racial background has thoughts like that, and it's not our fault. It's the TV, it's the books, it's the radio, it's the movies, it's the music. Sick fucking identity culture. UGH.

Keith,

I don't think our "culture" makes us racist; we just are. We feel more comfortable among those who remind ourselves of... us. I think it's hardwired.

Which does not, of course, mean we should give up and let such feelings rule us. But don't kick yourself or "the culture" for it.

I like peanut butter!

Wow, a lot of what you said is really fucked. First of all, I'm going to go ahead and assume that you're White, which is fine and not really something you can control. But being White, you have grown up with an incredibly amount of privledge that you neither asked for nor earned. I'm not saying that it's your job to walk around apologizing to the rest of the world for that privilage, but it *is* your job to join the rest of the world in attempting to even things out.

Also, yeah, those comments about the NBA being "too black" and medicine being "too Jewish", how incredibly ignorant did those sound??? Diversity doesn't mean "there are too MANY White people" it means "There are too FEW people of color" because, actually, if you add up the number of White people (based on skin pigment) in the world and the number of Brown people in the world... guess who actually outnumbers whom? It simply doesn't make sense that there isn't more of a balance of power going on in the world.

Finally, as a few people have already said, White Pride is going on 24 hours a day 365 days a year. It's on TV , it's in the history books, it's all around us. Also, as someone else pointed out, what IS "White Pride", there are many cultures encompassed under "White" (for example, I consider most Jewish people to be White while you apparently don't) so what culture would you be talking about if you had a "White Pride" event? I'm just curious, because I see St. Patrick's Day parades and Irish American Hertiage parades and on and on march through the streets of my city all the time and I have no problem with it because it's their specific culture that they're proud of. But to just say you have "White Pride" is pretty general, isn't it? What are you being proud of, exactly? A history of systematic oppression???


-Git-

GO SCHOOL!!!

hahahahahahahaha...

how did you know I was in college?

hahahahahahahahahahahaha...


(that stands for "Kiss My Chicken")
-Git-

You do have culture...you may have to go back a few generations to ascertain what your culture could've been but your current lifestyle is what counts.

Right now with all our different backgrounds we've spawned a new one and it is our culture to celebrate the older cultures.

I had noooooooooooooooo idea...or am telepathic...


means I shoulda cooked it before I ate it.

Being born in this country, should one really have to earn the privledges that comes with living in the US? I thought being a citizen was enough. And how about Gender, would you say that women of any race are afforded the same rights as men of the same race? Don't forget there was a time where may white cultures were oppressed as well... NINA? (No Irish Need Apply)

So, according to you all paople should be equally trying to even out all these past wrongs, and I say even if everyone tries it won't happen... beacuse of trying to correct the imbalance there will always be that person who didn't get into a school because there was someone whose race was underrepresented... And can you honestly say there will be a time that women get paid the same as men for equal work? all I can say is I won't hold my breath... whether it be race or gender bias is bias, and even the attempt to correct it is creating unfair situations.

maybe more olive than white

One *shouldn't* have to earn their privlages, but the fact is that those of us who aren't white, male, straight, Christian, etc etc etc DO. Also, while I am well-aware that many White immigrant groups suffered discrimination when they first arrived, the majority of that discrimination has ended while for people of color it seems to just persist throughout U.S. history. And finally, hrmm... maybe some White people *will* have to give up something so that minority groups can advance. It only makes sense that to even things out and bring some people to the top, others will have to fall. Pardon me while I don't find this to be asking too much considering what we've been living with in this country for the past 200+ years. Will that be fair? Probably not. Will that be necessary, probably so. If you can figure out a way for minority groups to gain privilage without any White privilage being lost, I'd love to hear it... and so would every public policy-maker in the country.

[Edited on May 05, 2003 by Git]

First I don't think America has a culture. It is a drab, consumerist, plastic nation. We see things that are definatly African or Asian, but america has what contributions to the worlds over all amazing culture? I don't think we've come up with anything great on our own. That means instead of making one, we revert back to our forefathers. This just seperates us from others (more on this later).

Now pride. What makes pride a good thing? Pride is something you will fight over, and is fighting ever good? If someone's idea is different than yours, is it really cool to get pissed and want to punch them? Say if you are Irish, a Mexican comes up and says, "Fucking Irish are all drunks and spud eating assholes." Pride would have you punching him in the face. Very productive eh?

Now as for these wonderful pride groups, it just keeps us apart. Racism is the act of acting on differences between peoples heritage. Someone is black so you treat them better/worse. A non racist person would treat them the same. Not affirmitive action, or giving them their own network, history month, ect. A non racist would just mingle it all together. No black awareness or white awareness.

The same goes for any group of people who don't want to be discriminated against.

(and as for the lack of black history in school, how many advancements of society have white people created? compared to black? compared to asians? It might seem kinda mean, but it's true. Expirience to me has found that noteable events that are done by anyone are usually gone over in school. I learned about the mongols, i learned about the spanish vs english vs french in the world domination game, and i learned about the advancements made in northern africa and the middle east. Most of Africa is far behind the world as far as technology goes. And thats what history seems to focus on, Imperialism and technology).

I think the perception of liberal in educaction exists, because the idealists of that culture are willing to take that pay. (Pay, or ease of safety, I'm going with pay, based on my own perceptions on how easy it is to make more money with differing morals.)

Any time that "Pride" is an excuse to do whatever group or individual X wants to do, it is a detriment for those who want honesty in their discussions. If you want to do it, it's you. That's all.

"I am proud to be an American." suggests that 1) American is something to be inordinately proud of; 2) Someone will disagree with you...somehow negating your pride/opinion.

American is just an easy debate jab. White, black, north korean, muslim...whatever. When someone embraces a general stereotype, they are hoping to embrace the most easily digestable portions. And maybe take a shot at those that disagree with their generalization of who they are.

Lord of Light from Zelazny always reminds of this kind of debate (a conversational gambit, suggesting that you are not well-read if you haven't seen it or that you ARE well-read if you have). The main character is asked to distract a group of monks, so that someone else can tamper with the monks' minds during the talk. His choice of discussion? Buddhist tract: by defining something with other words, you lose the essence of that something. (Describe fire to someone who has never seen it; technically you'll tell them what it's like or not like, but they don't get the real idea until they see/experience it.)

Pride in a stereotype of a race? I'm white, therefore proud of being white? I'm not willing to take up the cause of every white person's actions...or of a mob of white people.

Back to my original sub-argument of this discussion - it's similarly perceived that leaders of the industry are seen as conservative. Does that attach a negative/positive impact for you compated to my original statement? For those who can disagree with the second argument, you should be able to disagree with the first. And...uh...the reverse.

So, in the main topic - being white is as bad a label as anything else. *Hopefully* people can recognized acheivement without attached race/nationality/etc.

11 months is actually kind of selfish anyway.

As a "white" what exactly would you be proud of?
German, Irish, Italian, Swedish, etc. I could understand having a culture to identify with and be proud of, but being "white" is really another way of saying "not a minority".

I think the different minority groups go out of their way to be "proud" as a reaction against the dominant culture that tends to make them feel ashamed and inferior, so it's more like saying that they're not ashamed.