SURVEY: Put up or shuttup?

Do you think the US should pull out of Iraq? If so, how soon and why? If not, why not? What would you propose to do?

I propose this question, because as much as it's apparent that people dislike Bush and his Iraqi endeavor, it seems unclear what the alternative is. If you listen to the talking heads and politicians, I believe it's equally clear that they have no clear alternative. They simply complain. So what would you propose and why?

Well..... ousting Saddam created a power vaccumm that drew all the factions to vye for power. The US, in is great an all-knowing wisdom(note the sarcasm) thought that setting up a government, despite what the native populace might have to say about it, was the best approach to fill the vaccumm(or just to set up a puppet state, who knows?).

Its a hard choice, endure the hatred of the native people, or leave and watch the eventual slaughter or opposing factions to see who comes out on top. Not only would that be a horrble Humanitarian move, but there's a distinct possibility that the new leader will not want to be our special friend like the one we helped put into power.

Dilemma Dilemma...

I would like to point out that there are more than two choices here. It's not hate Bush and leave now, or love Bush and stay forever. I suspect the answer is somewhere in the middle.

Nuke the gay Iraqi whales!

Oh,...I simply love "planning!"

• Step One: Establish a short timetable for disentangling ourselves from the governing of Iraq; not more than 6 months


• Step Two: Simultaneously implement a program for maintaining current troop levels for a specific period while shifting the mix of personnel from combat troops to trainers and leaders


• Step Three: Accelerate the training of Iraq police AND enable the development of an Iraq Military


• Step Four: Relinquish control of the rebuilding effort and turn that over to an independent (perhaps UN) effort, while retaining the obligation to fund the effort and the obligation to audit


• Step Five: Build the above efforts into a plan that results in complete withdrawal within 12 months.

I vote shut up.

Because you tire of the discourse or because you have nothing meaningful to contribute?

So something like hold hands with Bush, leave when he tries to feel you up?

I'd like something to done about Muqtada al-Sada before any pull out. The Shia militia seem the main threat to things being taken completely out of the hands of the police and army. By "something" I don't mean an air strike.

Other than their ability to kill and humiliate Iraqis, the US has very little power in Iraq. They lack the ability to shape any kind of solution there and should leave Iraq immediately. The idea that they should stay there to fix the disaster they created stemsfrom a kind of narcissism. Americans have inflated view of the power they wield in Iraq and frankly don't want admit a simple fact: they lost.

The situation in Iraq has reached an unconscionable level of barbarity because of poorly conceived plan that was incompetently executed. I don't quite follow the logic of allowing those who designed and executed those plans more time to "fix" the devastation they have wrought.

It is silly for us to speak of what the US will do in Iraq, as if we are the only people who have a role to play. Iran, Syria and Turkey, not to mention China, Russia and the EU (as the major trading players in the region) will all have cards on the table as well. For instance, one of the options mentioned has been to partition Iraq into three states, however, Turkey will never stand for a free Kurdish state on its borders.

I think that the first step would be for the US to call a major summit, including all of the above, as well as Saudi Arabia and discuss a plan - the US would need to be prepared to play only an organizational role and let the other players work out their difference. In order to do this the US will need to be clear what its real interests are (access to oil) and let go of subsidiary interests (profits for Haliburton) that have been getting in the way.

In either case the US needs to announce that it all US troops will be out of Iraq by a fixed date (August 2007?) and let those who have interests in the area put some energy into resolving the crisis we have created.

The United States should not pull out of Iraq right away. We are stuck there for the foreseeable future. I don't think us being there is a calming influence in anyway but I am worried what will happen if the poorly preforming Iraqi army tries to stand up the militants. Considering how much of a problem they are giving us I think the government would almost certainly fold. I would like more troops because I think the only real solution is over whelming force but according to our top military leaders that is impossible. So the only way out is to train more Iraqi forces and do a better job training them. That means we need to overhaul the training program, add more trainers, have better better oversight over the training, weed out militant infiltration with state of the art lie detecting technology, and come up with uniforms for them that can not be replicated, and come up with an inventory system so that if uniforms or weapons go missing we can track down who stole them. I would also like to see every member of the military be trained in a strategic second language with special emphisis given to Arabic. I don't think involving Iran or Syria will work. I think they stand more to gain from an unstable Iraq and will lead us on for their own political gains. I also think that it would be impossible to get Iran to help us while trying to make sure they don't have the ability to make nuclear weapons.

In the long term I want us to establish a permanent military base in Iraqi Kurdistan. They have offered to let us do this and I think we are obligated to protect them. They also happen to be one of the few groups in the middle east with overwhelming support of the United States. In the long long term I think we should also support the formation of an independent Kurdistan which might include parts of Syria, Iran, Turkey and Iraq. Nations have a right to self determination and I think the Kurdish people were screwed over and it is something we should try to right.

The idea was that the only concrete notion at this point is that Bush sucks and we need to get out, nobody has really offered any other concrete options including 'love Bush stay forever'.

And I like where NickFaust is going with this. Anyone have input regarding diplomatic measures aimed at countries with interests in the region?

There are a lot of long words in there, hadees; we're naught but humble pirates, but I think you are trying to say you want a permanent US military presence to ensure protection for your beloved Israel.

Apologies to Captain Barbosa.

Yeah I couldn't possibly have genuine concern for the lives of Iraqis. Or long term stability through out the middle east. Or helping out the Kurds. It's all about Israel...

How about when you have something constructive to say you come back and someone might listen to you.

It would seem that you were listening. So many of your posts plainly promote unwashed support for Israel while simultaneously condemning anything Islamist that I thought it safe to assume I knew your agenda. And, on second thought; I'm sticking to my assertion, no matter the disguise you don.

Well it's nice to know now for sure you base your arguments on assumptions and conjecture. Thanks for clearing that up.

I don't know hadees' past positions on Israel have been or more accurately I can't remember them. But I don't believe that staying in Iraq really helps them. I mean the 'war' this summer was one of the worst things they've gone through in a while and it was while we were in Iraq. I also think Hadees makes some pretty good points concerning the Iraqi military and it's structure.

Consider this US army policing the US. One of the reasons it would be more effective is the structure of our army. We wouldn't have a group of men from Detroit policiing Detroit. It's similar to the idea of not putting family members in the same unit. These types of issues have been taken into consideration in the organization of our army. If these organizational issues have not been addressed in the Iraqi army it could certainly be making the situation worse (althought I'm not in anyway endorsing this as the primary cause of conflict, but it certainly wouldn't help a civil conflict). And addressing them through additional training would certainly be beneficial to the cause of stabilizing Iraq.

they're trying to get married to dogs!

That's funny. This entire time I thought he said 'grey' Iraqi whales. Not that it makes anymore sense now.

OK, I'm going to go out on a limb here:

If the US is going to achieve anything even vaguely useful in Iraq, it has to vastly increase troop levels. I can't see any other option.

It must then impose rigorous security measures, including disarming Iraqi civilians, detailed and careful border surveillance, and continuous patrols and oversight. This must be coupled with a rigorous justice system (administered by the US military, they're the only people with any hope of achieving it).

This then has to be followed up (quickly) by infrastructure reconstruction - including bringing a political, judicial and civil service structure on line, at first shadowing the US structures, and gradually supplanting them.

Once the reconstruction is done, then the US should give it back to the Iraqis. Shouldn't take more than four or five years.

This is going to cost a lot, in dollars and blood. I can't see Americans agreeing to do it.

And we need a draft...

Or, we have the alternative:

- A free Kurdistan in northern Iraq, with Turkey and Iran going to war against it.

- Shia Iraq, which is very likely to become another province of Iran. Even if it remains outside Iran, it will be very much in the Iranian camp.

- And a suddenly-poor Sunni Iraq, with not much except desert. That should be a fine recruiting ground for the Islamists.

All of which will be achieved by killing everyone who looks any different. That's going to make Bosnia look like a theme park.


And, while I remember: America (and Britain) will be the villains of the piece, for all concerned: Sunni, Shia, Kurds, Turkey, Iran.

Largely because that was the original plan and it has not worked. It's no longer sensible to suggest that we keep doing the same thing, but this time with more enthusiasm, and more troops, and more money, and more time. Sort of a "Stay the Course - with Vigor!"

And to what end? I believe we have a responsibility to prop back up that which we destroyed and at this stage, that seems largely to include getting the Iraq military and police back in place and funding the rebuilding.

I agree. But the current state of things seems so dire that the Iraqi forces in place (plus their US allies) can't cope.

I'm not happy with any of this. But I tried to answer the question honestly.