Lauren Mouton (a friend of mine from Abbeville, LA) and I have been having a discussion about condoms and abstinence-only sex education. I would like to share it with you.
Bulletin post by Lauren
Subject: ooo. dooo eet.
From: Lauren
Date: Nov 27 2006 7:31 PM
Yesterday (Friday Nov. 24, 2006) I went to the Mello Joy Coffeehouse in downtown Lafayette. At the counter there were
several petitions there for customers to sign. One of them was in favor of contraception and the other was in favor of sexual education programs that promote contraception. I asked the cashier if the coffeehouse was sponsoring these petitions and she said that it was.
Indeed, as a privately owned company they have a right to do something like this, however it is not consistent with their image of being the "original Cajun coffee." Catholicism and traditional
Christian values are an integral part of the Cajun culture and not
the values of sexual promiscuity and irresponsibility.
Please contact Mello Joy toll free at 1-86MELLOJOY
or contact them via the web here
http://www.mellojoy.com/EmailUs.asp?p1=ContactUs&p2=2220> and express your dissatisfaction with these petitions and their
claim to be "Cajun" while advocating such "un-Cajun" values.
In Christ,
Rev. Bryce Sibley
My response to the bulletin
From: Honey B
Date: Nov 27 2006 11:33 PM
Contraception and sexual education are incredibly important for the prevention of sexually transmitted diseases in youth, which are incredibly prominent especially when people are not educated on how to properly use contraception. Is turning a blind eye to deadly incurable diseases a part of Cajun values?
Lauren's message back to me
From: Lauren
Date: Nov 28 2006 2:33 AM
as quoted from the post:
Catholicism and traditional Christian values are an integral part of the Cajun culture and not the values of sexual promiscuity and irresponsibility.
...
abstinence is the only sure fire way to prevent any of that. condoms don't prevent STDS (not to mention the pill), and quite frankly, they don't really prevent pregnancy either...
but my roommate suggests that i add a sentence stating that you are allowed to believe what you want, and it's just my opinion. of course, i know you will believe what you want regardless of what i say, so it doesnt much matter, now does it :-P
love you--
--Okay, at this point I was taken aback. A little shocked that an intelligent well-educated young person would flat out say, "Condoms don't prevent STDs," as if it were a well-known fact. As you may know, this is a topic about which I am passionate. So I wrote back...--
Bobbie's message to Lauren
From: Honey B
Date: Nov 28 2006 10:20 AM
yes, abstinence is the only way to protect yourself completely but we have to face the fact that not everybody is abstinent. and when people are putting themselves at risk, it's important that they know how to protect themselves. abstinence-only sex education is one of the most dangerous things out there, because it doesn't stop teenagers from having sex -- it just stops them from having SAFER sex. contraception doesn't promote promiscuity or irresponsibility... in fact it promotes responsibility. the irresponsible thing is pretending that teens don't have sex and communities not taking the blame for their own actions when they don't educate their youth. as a prime example, you say that condoms don't prevent STDs. when used correctly, condoms ABSOLUTELY protect you from contracting STDs. the fact that you don't know that is horrifying to me because it means that you grew up without proper safe sex education. teens especially need safer sex education so that they can learn how to protect themselves.
--To me, all of that is a given. But Lauren wasn't raised the same way I was... and I guess in Louisiana public schools they don't have sex ed?--
Lauren's response
my dear, you're misinformed if you think condoms prevent against all STDS, because they don't. true they may prevent some...but realistically, they do NOT prevent against the most dangerous or the most prevalent STDs. I could find statistics that prove so.
It's the truth. Condom companys just don't want you to know that.
--Condom companies are not the bad guy. They do not make up statistics. And what did she mean by most dangerous or most prevalent STDs? I didn't know so when I responded...--
ANOTHER message from Bobs to Lauren
From: Honey B
Date: Nov 28 2006 11:19 AM
honey... i'm a sex educator. that's part of what i do at school. condoms are a form of barrier protection. they protect against infections transmitted through semen. true, HIV can also be transmitted through shared needles, but its main form of transmission is heterosexual sex. 80% of cases of HIV are contracted through heterosexual sex... so much of which could be prevented through the correct use of condoms. they don't protect against crabs but that's because crabs is not technically a sexually transmitted disease... it's just lice. they protect against gonorrhea and syphilis as well. when people who use condoms get STDs it is usually because of incorrect condom usage. there are always exceptions, but this is the truth.
--That's pretty straightforward, right? But then I get this self-righteous message with sweeping generalizations. No offense Lauren, but I was pretty offended by the tone of this message.--
Lauren's msg
From: Lauren
Date: Nov 29 2006 2:03 AM
sorry dear. facts prove that condoms are ineffective. straight up. be expecting an email full of statistics and resources to prove it.
you are correct in some of what you said, but not all of it. take a look at the information i send and then see what you have to say about it.
Here is the e-mail full of "statistics and resources," all of which are on sites that promote abstinence-only sex ed and not any unbiased articles or resources
Here ya go.
The NIH survey speaks for itself.
In the newsletter attachment, read the part about condom labels changing.
Check out these websites:
http://www.abstinencedu.com/explore.cfm/healthcrisisfact/ --see bullet #7
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Abstinence/BG1533.cfm
--I mean look at the first one. "Abstinenceedu.com"--
My e-mail back
From: Roberta Beyer <rbeyer@tulane.edu>
To: Lauren Mouton <lauren312m@msn.com>
Subject: Re: stats
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:11:41 -0600
"There is no clinical proof that condoms, or other contraceptives, prevent HPV, Trichomoniasis, Chlamydia, and Genital Herpes."
That's true, which is why I said that condoms, as a barrier contraceptive, protect against STIs transmitted through semen. These are not, however, as you stated, the "most dangerous" STIs. Most of them can be treated. It holds true that condoms protect against HIV/AIDS and other infections transmitted through semen and vaginal fluid.
The arguments in your second article are for abstinence only sex education. You have to accept the fact that not all teenagers are wonderful angels like yourself (and I mean that! I'm not being sarcastic... you are wonderful and I appreciate that you have taken the time to have this discussion with me) and many do engage in pre-marital sex. This is not a debate on whether people should have sex before marriage -- everyone has their own beliefs on that and I respect and admire anyone who chooses to wait. But people should have a choice, or at least know their options. This article mentions that condoms do not protect against HIV/AIDS in 15-30% of cases. Yes, that is tragic, but you have to remember that a huge percentage of that is through improper use of condoms, which in turn is caused by youth not being educated about contraceptives. Also, many cases of HIV are transmitted through misuse of needles. Examples of improper use of condoms:
-using a male and a female condom at the same time
-using two male condoms at the same time
-using expired condoms
-using a condom with a damaged package
-re-using a condom
-not pinching the tip when rolling down a condom
-not replacing the condom if it breaks
-not removing the condom immediately after ejaculation
-not making sure the condom is snug and rolled all the way down
-being inconsistent in condom use
This may be more than you ever wanted to know about condoms. I understand the Catholic church's position on contraception as counter-intuitive to building a family, but even if we just put unwanted pregnancies aside, the use of condoms as protection against STIs is very important.
Proper condom usage: http://www.epigee.org/guide/condomuse.html
Condoms can help reduce the risk of HPV in women: http://www.ashastd.org/news/news_pressreleases_HPVCondomStudy.cfm
HIV and condom use: http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/aids/TechAreas/prevention/condomfactsheet.html
I know that no method of prevention is better than abstinence, but I also know that in reality not everyone has the faith or willpower to practice that, and if young people are going to be having sex, it is important for them to know how to REDUCE the risk of these things (I say reduce because I am absolutely aware that they cannot be 100% prevented except by abstinence). Again, I know that the only way to 100% avoid risk is abstinence, but it is not correct to say that condoms do not reduce the risk of sexually transmitted diseases. It is a scientific fact. Is it morally reprehensible? I don't know. That's not my argument. I'm not Catholic. The Catholic church has no effect on my sex life. But I know that if I choose to have sex I know how to protect myself. I worry about communities with no contraception education because the teenagers who ARE having sex have never learned how to protect themselves.
--I would have liked it if Lauren's e-mail had actually included some of her own thoughts instead of just spouting out that which other people have written--
Lauren wrote me back -- luckily we can still be friends no matter what
Well, Bobbie. I must say that I admire you as well. It's not often that two people as different as ourselves can have a conversation such as this one. Thank you for respecting my beliefs; I really appreciate it. I think that having friends such as those from Sainte Anne has helped me to be a better person. Throughout our messages, I have been continuing the discussion with my roommate who happens to be a "Cradle-Catholic" (unlike myself) and I can see how different she and I view things as far as accepting and tolerating people different than ourselves. Granted, I am fully aware of my biases toward various ideas, but I do see the growth I've made and where I'd like to be. Personally, I see this is a good thing. (Not to say that I intend to change my beliefs or stances on many hot topics, because I don't, but still.)
I'm not going to pretend that many of your opinions in relation to our discussion are incorrect, because they aren't. However, it is very true that abstainence is the only way to prevent illness associated with sexual activty. I still believe that condom use is an ineffective method of preventing disease, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Regardless, I don't plan to ever use contraception...that's another discussion that I don't think we'll be having.
I hope you have a great day. Thank you for loving me even though we're very different. I still love you too.
Lauren
--We IMed for a while, and then Lauren said she was tired of discussing it. Well I'm not. This is important. What do you all think?
Bulletin post by Lauren
Subject: ooo. dooo eet.
From: Lauren
Date: Nov 27 2006 7:31 PM
Yesterday (Friday Nov. 24, 2006) I went to the Mello Joy Coffeehouse in downtown Lafayette. At the counter there were
several petitions there for customers to sign. One of them was in favor of contraception and the other was in favor of sexual education programs that promote contraception. I asked the cashier if the coffeehouse was sponsoring these petitions and she said that it was.
Indeed, as a privately owned company they have a right to do something like this, however it is not consistent with their image of being the "original Cajun coffee." Catholicism and traditional
Christian values are an integral part of the Cajun culture and not
the values of sexual promiscuity and irresponsibility.
Please contact Mello Joy toll free at 1-86MELLOJOY
or contact them via the web here
http://www.mellojoy.com/EmailUs.asp?p1=ContactUs&p2=2220> and express your dissatisfaction with these petitions and their
claim to be "Cajun" while advocating such "un-Cajun" values.
In Christ,
Rev. Bryce Sibley
My response to the bulletin
From: Honey B
Date: Nov 27 2006 11:33 PM
Contraception and sexual education are incredibly important for the prevention of sexually transmitted diseases in youth, which are incredibly prominent especially when people are not educated on how to properly use contraception. Is turning a blind eye to deadly incurable diseases a part of Cajun values?
Lauren's message back to me
From: Lauren
Date: Nov 28 2006 2:33 AM
as quoted from the post:
Catholicism and traditional Christian values are an integral part of the Cajun culture and not the values of sexual promiscuity and irresponsibility.
...
abstinence is the only sure fire way to prevent any of that. condoms don't prevent STDS (not to mention the pill), and quite frankly, they don't really prevent pregnancy either...
but my roommate suggests that i add a sentence stating that you are allowed to believe what you want, and it's just my opinion. of course, i know you will believe what you want regardless of what i say, so it doesnt much matter, now does it :-P
love you--
--Okay, at this point I was taken aback. A little shocked that an intelligent well-educated young person would flat out say, "Condoms don't prevent STDs," as if it were a well-known fact. As you may know, this is a topic about which I am passionate. So I wrote back...--
Bobbie's message to Lauren
From: Honey B
Date: Nov 28 2006 10:20 AM
yes, abstinence is the only way to protect yourself completely but we have to face the fact that not everybody is abstinent. and when people are putting themselves at risk, it's important that they know how to protect themselves. abstinence-only sex education is one of the most dangerous things out there, because it doesn't stop teenagers from having sex -- it just stops them from having SAFER sex. contraception doesn't promote promiscuity or irresponsibility... in fact it promotes responsibility. the irresponsible thing is pretending that teens don't have sex and communities not taking the blame for their own actions when they don't educate their youth. as a prime example, you say that condoms don't prevent STDs. when used correctly, condoms ABSOLUTELY protect you from contracting STDs. the fact that you don't know that is horrifying to me because it means that you grew up without proper safe sex education. teens especially need safer sex education so that they can learn how to protect themselves.
--To me, all of that is a given. But Lauren wasn't raised the same way I was... and I guess in Louisiana public schools they don't have sex ed?--
Lauren's response
my dear, you're misinformed if you think condoms prevent against all STDS, because they don't. true they may prevent some...but realistically, they do NOT prevent against the most dangerous or the most prevalent STDs. I could find statistics that prove so.
It's the truth. Condom companys just don't want you to know that.
--Condom companies are not the bad guy. They do not make up statistics. And what did she mean by most dangerous or most prevalent STDs? I didn't know so when I responded...--
ANOTHER message from Bobs to Lauren
From: Honey B
Date: Nov 28 2006 11:19 AM
honey... i'm a sex educator. that's part of what i do at school. condoms are a form of barrier protection. they protect against infections transmitted through semen. true, HIV can also be transmitted through shared needles, but its main form of transmission is heterosexual sex. 80% of cases of HIV are contracted through heterosexual sex... so much of which could be prevented through the correct use of condoms. they don't protect against crabs but that's because crabs is not technically a sexually transmitted disease... it's just lice. they protect against gonorrhea and syphilis as well. when people who use condoms get STDs it is usually because of incorrect condom usage. there are always exceptions, but this is the truth.
--That's pretty straightforward, right? But then I get this self-righteous message with sweeping generalizations. No offense Lauren, but I was pretty offended by the tone of this message.--
Lauren's msg
From: Lauren
Date: Nov 29 2006 2:03 AM
sorry dear. facts prove that condoms are ineffective. straight up. be expecting an email full of statistics and resources to prove it.
you are correct in some of what you said, but not all of it. take a look at the information i send and then see what you have to say about it.
Here is the e-mail full of "statistics and resources," all of which are on sites that promote abstinence-only sex ed and not any unbiased articles or resources
Here ya go.
The NIH survey speaks for itself.
In the newsletter attachment, read the part about condom labels changing.
Check out these websites:
http://www.abstinencedu.com/explore.cfm/healthcrisisfact/ --see bullet #7
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Abstinence/BG1533.cfm
--I mean look at the first one. "Abstinenceedu.com"--
My e-mail back
From: Roberta Beyer <rbeyer@tulane.edu>
To: Lauren Mouton <lauren312m@msn.com>
Subject: Re: stats
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2006 10:11:41 -0600
"There is no clinical proof that condoms, or other contraceptives, prevent HPV, Trichomoniasis, Chlamydia, and Genital Herpes."
That's true, which is why I said that condoms, as a barrier contraceptive, protect against STIs transmitted through semen. These are not, however, as you stated, the "most dangerous" STIs. Most of them can be treated. It holds true that condoms protect against HIV/AIDS and other infections transmitted through semen and vaginal fluid.
The arguments in your second article are for abstinence only sex education. You have to accept the fact that not all teenagers are wonderful angels like yourself (and I mean that! I'm not being sarcastic... you are wonderful and I appreciate that you have taken the time to have this discussion with me) and many do engage in pre-marital sex. This is not a debate on whether people should have sex before marriage -- everyone has their own beliefs on that and I respect and admire anyone who chooses to wait. But people should have a choice, or at least know their options. This article mentions that condoms do not protect against HIV/AIDS in 15-30% of cases. Yes, that is tragic, but you have to remember that a huge percentage of that is through improper use of condoms, which in turn is caused by youth not being educated about contraceptives. Also, many cases of HIV are transmitted through misuse of needles. Examples of improper use of condoms:
-using a male and a female condom at the same time
-using two male condoms at the same time
-using expired condoms
-using a condom with a damaged package
-re-using a condom
-not pinching the tip when rolling down a condom
-not replacing the condom if it breaks
-not removing the condom immediately after ejaculation
-not making sure the condom is snug and rolled all the way down
-being inconsistent in condom use
This may be more than you ever wanted to know about condoms. I understand the Catholic church's position on contraception as counter-intuitive to building a family, but even if we just put unwanted pregnancies aside, the use of condoms as protection against STIs is very important.
Proper condom usage: http://www.epigee.org/guide/condomuse.html
Condoms can help reduce the risk of HPV in women: http://www.ashastd.org/news/news_pressreleases_HPVCondomStudy.cfm
HIV and condom use: http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/global_health/aids/TechAreas/prevention/condomfactsheet.html
I know that no method of prevention is better than abstinence, but I also know that in reality not everyone has the faith or willpower to practice that, and if young people are going to be having sex, it is important for them to know how to REDUCE the risk of these things (I say reduce because I am absolutely aware that they cannot be 100% prevented except by abstinence). Again, I know that the only way to 100% avoid risk is abstinence, but it is not correct to say that condoms do not reduce the risk of sexually transmitted diseases. It is a scientific fact. Is it morally reprehensible? I don't know. That's not my argument. I'm not Catholic. The Catholic church has no effect on my sex life. But I know that if I choose to have sex I know how to protect myself. I worry about communities with no contraception education because the teenagers who ARE having sex have never learned how to protect themselves.
--I would have liked it if Lauren's e-mail had actually included some of her own thoughts instead of just spouting out that which other people have written--
Lauren wrote me back -- luckily we can still be friends no matter what
Well, Bobbie. I must say that I admire you as well. It's not often that two people as different as ourselves can have a conversation such as this one. Thank you for respecting my beliefs; I really appreciate it. I think that having friends such as those from Sainte Anne has helped me to be a better person. Throughout our messages, I have been continuing the discussion with my roommate who happens to be a "Cradle-Catholic" (unlike myself) and I can see how different she and I view things as far as accepting and tolerating people different than ourselves. Granted, I am fully aware of my biases toward various ideas, but I do see the growth I've made and where I'd like to be. Personally, I see this is a good thing. (Not to say that I intend to change my beliefs or stances on many hot topics, because I don't, but still.)
I'm not going to pretend that many of your opinions in relation to our discussion are incorrect, because they aren't. However, it is very true that abstainence is the only way to prevent illness associated with sexual activty. I still believe that condom use is an ineffective method of preventing disease, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Regardless, I don't plan to ever use contraception...that's another discussion that I don't think we'll be having.
I hope you have a great day. Thank you for loving me even though we're very different. I still love you too.
Lauren
--We IMed for a while, and then Lauren said she was tired of discussing it. Well I'm not. This is important. What do you all think?
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(yeah Princess Bride is good and all!)