Every other band was on stage because they wanted to be rock stars, this band was on stage because they had no fucking choice, sums up Tony Wilsons narrative. A camera pans across stark landscape of decrepit factories and abandoned warehouses. Wilson says, I dont see this as the story of a group, but of a city. The group was Joy Division and the city was Manchester, England. It was 1976 and the group was about to change music, and their city, forever.
Joy Division, the true story of the meteoric rise and fall of one of the most influential bands of our time, is the new documentary from director Grant Gee and producer Tom Atencio that traces the bands history through never-before seen footage, bootlegged audio recordings and rare photos, as well as through in-depth (and at times incredibly painful) interviews with bassist Peter Hook, guitarist/keyboardist Bernard Sumner, drummer Stephen Morris, and Factory Records founder, the late Tony Wilson.
Joy Division formed in 1976 in Salford, just outside of Manchester, after Hook and Sumner caught a Sex Pistols show and decided to give punk rock a shot. The bands first album, Unknown Pleasures, was released on Tony Wilsons Factory Records in 1979 and quickly established Joy Division as the aggressive yet atmospheric post-punk pioneers we know today. Theirs was music you could lose yourself in over and over again. But by February of 1980 the momentum of success had begun to take its toll on the band, most notably singer Ian Curtis, whos physical and emotional fragility was unable to sustain the pressure of expectation. On May 18 1980, a 23-year-old Curtis hung himself, mere days before the band was to hop a flight to America for what would have been their first stateside tour. The bands brilliant second album, Closer, was released after Curtis death. Joy Division was no more, but their story became that of legend.
The day after the documentary's Los Angeles screening I met up with Peter Hook at Rhino Records for our interview...
Erin Broadley: Did you enjoy the screening last night?
Peter Hook: It was a bit weird but good. It was quite odd because it was so arty and sort of restrained. I thought it would have been a bit wilder, really. It wasnt as crazy as I thought it was going to be.
EB: What led to the decision to get involved with the documentary? When Anton Corbijns Joy Division biopic, Control, came out last year, there was speculation as to whether or not the band was happy with that fictional representation.
PH: The interesting thing is that the Joy Division documentary actually came about before Control, but Control happened quicker. I dont think the documentary would have happened afterwards because we would have been so sick of talking about Joy Division, and so sick of living with it, that we wouldnt have been able to do it. You wouldnt have been able to give it the objectivity. It wouldnt have been as fresh and honest. Tom Atencios timing was perfect, really. The interesting thing about the documentary is that Ive never heard Bernard and Stephen talk about Joy Division like that. Its something that we didnt do, and we havent done.
EB: Theres that point in the documentary where its said that men dont talk.
PH: Its true. The sad aspect of it is, that if the three of us had done the interview together, you wouldnt have said hardly anything. You just wouldnt do it. Separately youd do it. The interviews were done by John Savage, whos a great friend of ours, an old journalist from Manchester who started in the punk era just the same way that we did. So youre talking to someone you know very well, who knows the story very well. And obviously Tom Atencio weve worked with since 1982, so we know him very well. You open up to these people much more than you would do to somebody you didnt know. And, to me, in the documentary it paid off.
EB: The documentary starts with Tony Wilson saying its more than just a story about a group; its a story about a city.
PH: Yeah, thats Tony Wilsons interpretation of it that it all was about Manchester. And I suppose it is. You are subconsciously fueled by your surroundings, especially when youre a kid. And the thing is that Manchester gave me the fuel to want to get out. And ironically it draws me back, every time I leave. When I leave here now Ill be going back to Manchester. Its quite odd seeing all these places in the world, all these different cultures, and you still always go home to Manchester.
EB: Maybe Tony saw things more like a scene.
PH: Hes a journalist. Im just a stupid fucking musician. [Smiles] I dont see any further than the end of me guitar.
EB: [Laughs] Well, I did love your description of him as an alien with tentacles.
PH: [Laughs] In that time, considering Im just a working class tosser from Salford, to see somebody like him, it was like Doctor Who. It was wild.
EB: Was it hard for him to win Joy Divisions trust?
PH: Not particularly. Tony was a very confident guy. He was a star in his own right when he met us. So he always treated you in the same way, which was with a healthy dose of disdain [laughs]. He was always the boss and was treated in a sort of reverent manner. The Joy Division story is to do with Manchester. And its to do with the re-growth of Manchester that happened at the end of the 70s, and the fact that Factory Records, the Hacienda, Joy Division and New Order came from that. Its a tale of regeneration. It does have an effect on me when I see it. I find the documentary, and Control, still quite upsetting really. It really does tug at your heartstrings. Its always difficult for me to watch either of them. I certainly dont find it a joyous occasion. But I do think that the two of them go together so well, which was something I didnt expect. Very surprised. I was fuckin amazed at some of the stuff Tom got because he had stuff that I hadnt heard. And I was like, Whered you get that from?! Everybody has a different memory. It was hilarious last night when the documentary said that Bernard came up with the name for Joy Division. I dont remember that at all. As far as I was concerned, it was Ian that had the book the House of Dolls and came up with the name Joy Division. So his memory of it is completely fuckin opposite to mine.
EB: Everything Ive read has linked it to Ian as well.
PH: Yeah, it was Ian! It was Ians book. [Laughs] Its funny that everybody has a different memory. And none of it is true. It has to be an amalgamation of it thats true. It depends who you ask.
EB: Even a documentary is just a patchwork semblance of what really happened. One thing thats said in the end of the documentary is that since there were only two things Joy Division actually created, Unknown Pleasures and Closer, that everything since has just been merchandising memory.
PH: Yeah. Well, it probably would have been nice if the merchandising memory was actually done by the band.
EB: [Laughs]
PH: It was quite interesting. Because we were punks when we first began, we didnt do fan clubs, we didnt do t-shirts we felt it was crap and it was robbing people and it was mindless cashing in. We didnt do Joy Division t-shirts. Ever. But when we got investigated by the tax man because of the Hacienda, the tax man said to us, What I see whenever I walk round Manchester is Joy Division t-shirts. And in your accounts I dont see any money for Joy Division t-shirts. Wheres the money for the Joy Division t-shirts? And we said, Well, we dont do them because we dont believe in it; we think its cheap merchandising gimmick. And he went, Well frankly I dont believe you and Im fining you.
EB: Wow.
PH: He fined us for hiding our t-shirt revenue when we never fucking had any. So let that be a warning to you.
EB: [Laughs] Okay, well if I walk around and I see anyone wearing t-shirts with my name on them, Ill make sure to put a stop to it.
PH: Mhmm. Make sure you get the dough.
EB: In the early Manchester scene, one thing that is brought up in the documentary is Joy Divisions Im fucked mentality versus the Fuck you attitude of other punk bands. I thought that was a really interesting way to sum it up. Where did you find the balance?
PH: [Laughs] Yeah. I think the balance was sort of thrust upon you, really. If anything, as Bernard says, and as I said last night, we must be the only two people that dont like Unknown Pleasures, which is quite ironic when youre the one who bloody wrote it. Quite odd, really. The thing is, I appreciate it now what Martin [Hannett, the producer] did. At the time I was too young. I was too obnoxious -- a full of myself youngster -- to appreciate anything. To me, Martin was like you parents fuck off. Thats why I became a punk, so I could tell everyone to fuck off, and thats it.
EB: What was it about that album that you thought made it so impenetrable?
PH: I thought it was too subtle. I wanted it to be the way we sounded live, like the Ramones. [Laughs] But Im prepared to admit that I was wrong. Martin gave it a depth, gave it the appeal and the ability to last a long time. To get music that you can lose yourself in is quite rare. Martin had that ability. He made Joy Division so that you could lose yourself. He proved that he could make it last, and he did make it last. I think Bernard and I would have made a much more one-dimensional record, because it was always Bernard and I who were the most pushy. Martin made a very three-dimensional, if not four-dimensional, record. Something you could lose yourself in; it had lasting power. [Laughs] He was a fucking maniac a really weird character. A genius, but obviously troubled. He was a gift to us and basically Bernard and I learned how to do produce so then when he got difficult, we got rid of him and did it ourselves. Its all about ego isnt it?
EB: When you started you could barely play your instruments but then
PH: it all happened so quick. That was the thing about punk. The ideology of it was lets not wait, lets do it now. It was very instantaneous. What I liked about punk was that you admired the people who just got up and did it, regardless of whether it was bad or good. The thing you appreciated was that they just got up and did it. There was one wonderful band from Manchester called The Worst and they were the worst. They had no songs; it was just a drummer and a guitarist and theyd just do it. That was what punk was all about. It couldnt last. It was like bloody metal machine music. But in the context of what we were doing -- and the building that we were using, a squat on Oxford road in Manchester for all the bands to play in -- it was perfect.
EB: The first TV appearance you guys did was Granada, right?
PH: Yeah, I remember how nervous we were. I remember going out in the afternoon and Rob Gretton [Joy Divisions manager] buying me that shirt that I wore because he felt that the shirt that I had was too scruffy. So he took me and paid 3 pound 50 for that shirt and I wore it that night. I wore it for ages until it got ripped when I did a gig with Dexys Midnight Runners in Birmingham. I can remember ripping that fucking shirt on me bass cab.
EB: Was it emotional?
PH: It was. I remember I was really pissed off. Really fucking annoyed because I liked that shirt. But its the nerves mainly. I remember how nervous we were [to play Granada]. That was a big thing to happen to you. It was fantastic. I remember the momentous occasion very well. To get to go to Granada studios, and to go into the Cantina dressing rooms, it was like, fuckin hell!
EB: Like you said, it all happened very quickly. Do you think you were ever fully aware of how much that momentum had caught up to you guys or how much pressure was mounting towards the end?
PH: No, we were very young and very fit so we were ok. You were only aware of the pull it was having on Ian because he wasnt well. So that was a problem. The thing is, when you start you desperately want to play anywhere and do anything. It was interesting because I remember us doing a concert in Oldham near Manchester as Joy Division and nobody came. Nobody. No one. [Laughs]
EB: Just a dog and the bartender?
PH: Just the bartender. And he started sweeping up while we were on. Then six months later youre playing to a packed room. Same material but to a crowd that are going ape shit. Its wild when you think of the gulf in that. We started getting popular after the Buzzcocks tour, which was wonderful because we actually blew the Buzzcocks off a couple of nights fucking blew em out of the water. It was fantastic. Hilarious. We started getting offered loads of gigs and Ian, even though he was ill, because hed being working for this and working towards this, was desperate to do the gigs. It was heartbreaking for him to have to admit that physically he wasnt up to it, and he fought that right til the end. He was his own worst enemy. Basically what Ian would do to you, youd say, Ian youre ill. Maybe you shouldnt be doing this. And hed go, Im fine, dont worry about me, Im fine. And youd go, Thank God for that. Right, lets get on with it. It was always him. He was never pushed to these gigs kicking and screaming. He pushed himself because he didnt want to let you down.
On our part, you can only put it down to inexperience and naivet. I did a Radio 4 thing in England recently, and the guy said to me, How could you let that happen? And youre like, Oh fuck. But its true, you see. How could you let it happen? You dickhead, you fucking did that. How could you let that happen? Youre like, Oh fuck, I did that. We did. We should have stopped it. But we were all so caught up in the whole occasion and because Ian was going, Dont worry, youre fine, Ill look after me self, well be all right. Youre like, Oh thank God we dont have to worry about that now he said that hes okay.
EB: But dont you think at a certain point, because you guys were so young, it was the responsibilities of your managers with the experience not to let that happen? Somebody on the periphery looking out? Where were they?
PH: Yes. There was a lot more people that made bigger mistakes. His psychiatrist, his doctor, the people treating him in the hospital, they all fucking let him go.
EB: I dont think its up to a bunch of 22-year-olds to be able to
PH: Yeah, but it still doesnt stop you from not feeling responsible. It also doesnt stop people from turning around and saying to you that its all your fault. But there is a responsibility, which I suppose is one of the things you have to live with What if Id have done this? If it happened to me 10 or 20 years ago, I would have just gone, Stop fucking sort it out. Then we were too young, too nave, too hopeful and you were so grateful for the things that you were being given, you were desperate not to pass it up. It was a combination of all that, plus the guy telling you it was ok. None of us knew. It was really, really sad. I was with him the night before he died and I drove him home and we were so excited about going to America. That was why I was in such shock when I was told because Id been with him on Friday night. I drove him home. Howd you get from that to that? Fuckin hell man. Its unbelievable. It was unbelievable. Who the fuck knows what happened.
EB: For a lot of people the end of Joy Division was a symbolic loss. And the fact that the band never made it to America just made it even more precious to Manchester.
PH: Yeah, even I often wonder what would have happened. Whether thats a good or bad thing, I dont know, really. Its a very difficult decision. I was doing an interview before and the guy said to me, Oh, youve been in two of the most important bands of the 80s and 90s," and I suppose the thing is, if Ian hadnt have died it would have been one band. Its weird the way that things work out, really. People always say, Well what do you think Joy Division would have been like if Ian had lived? And I think Blue Monday would have been by Joy Division, with Ian singing. I dont think our development would have changed that much. With Ian singing New Order, I think you would have gone the same way.
EB: You have the New Order Live In Glasgow DVD that just came out. Whats going on with that?
PH: Well, it was planned before New Order split up. The record company asked us if wed do one this tour so it was done simply as that. Stephen and I got involved in the production of it. We oversaw the editing, put the pictures together, we mixed the sound and put it all together. Stephen went and collected the rare and unseen footage, which I thought was wonderful. [Laughs] But when I saw the headline New Order Celebrates Career in Glasgow, I dont remember it being very celebratory, to be honest, but maybe thats just me. It was nice to be involved in it. I think one of the bad things thats happened to musicians is that when you dont get involved in everything that you do, then theres no quality control and that I find off-putting and is a sad part of our business. So I was delighted to be involved in it and to do it to the best of our ability. Its all the more poignant because New Order have split up. It makes it quite an odd situation. To be honest with you, its an odd situation to be here talking about it. Because Id rather not. [Laughs]
EB: Then you dont have to
PH: [Laughs] No, I dont mind. The thing is, whilst my memories of New Order at the moment are very clouded by the split and what happened after it, Im the first one to sit up and look at it and go, Well fucking hell we achieved something wonderful. And Im glad, especially because Stephen and I were involved in doing this one. This is a celebration of our career; it just wasnt a very celebratory night. Basically we were all getting on each others fucking nerves. We were all sick to death of each other and it wasnt a great atmosphere, but as it happens, your professionalism overcame that and you still created something wonderful. I suppose thats the thing about the chemistry of groups, is that a group can still hate each other but actually create something quite brilliant. You always seem to need a bit of angst and a bit of pain to make great music. So I suppose New Order were very lucky in that they found a way to stay in constant pain. [Laughs].
EB: Well whats up next for you?
PH: These days I'm deejaying. Im on the old fucker who used to be in a band circuit, as my mate calls it. And Ive got a new group Im working on called Freebase, with Manny who used to be in the Stone Roses, and Andy Rourke who used to be in the Smiths, which is coming along quite well, yeah. Im quite happy.
Joy Division, the documentary, is out now on DVD. Buy it here. Also available on DVD is New Order: Live in Glasgow. Buy it here.
Joy Division, the true story of the meteoric rise and fall of one of the most influential bands of our time, is the new documentary from director Grant Gee and producer Tom Atencio that traces the bands history through never-before seen footage, bootlegged audio recordings and rare photos, as well as through in-depth (and at times incredibly painful) interviews with bassist Peter Hook, guitarist/keyboardist Bernard Sumner, drummer Stephen Morris, and Factory Records founder, the late Tony Wilson.
Joy Division formed in 1976 in Salford, just outside of Manchester, after Hook and Sumner caught a Sex Pistols show and decided to give punk rock a shot. The bands first album, Unknown Pleasures, was released on Tony Wilsons Factory Records in 1979 and quickly established Joy Division as the aggressive yet atmospheric post-punk pioneers we know today. Theirs was music you could lose yourself in over and over again. But by February of 1980 the momentum of success had begun to take its toll on the band, most notably singer Ian Curtis, whos physical and emotional fragility was unable to sustain the pressure of expectation. On May 18 1980, a 23-year-old Curtis hung himself, mere days before the band was to hop a flight to America for what would have been their first stateside tour. The bands brilliant second album, Closer, was released after Curtis death. Joy Division was no more, but their story became that of legend.
The day after the documentary's Los Angeles screening I met up with Peter Hook at Rhino Records for our interview...
Erin Broadley: Did you enjoy the screening last night?
Peter Hook: It was a bit weird but good. It was quite odd because it was so arty and sort of restrained. I thought it would have been a bit wilder, really. It wasnt as crazy as I thought it was going to be.
EB: What led to the decision to get involved with the documentary? When Anton Corbijns Joy Division biopic, Control, came out last year, there was speculation as to whether or not the band was happy with that fictional representation.
PH: The interesting thing is that the Joy Division documentary actually came about before Control, but Control happened quicker. I dont think the documentary would have happened afterwards because we would have been so sick of talking about Joy Division, and so sick of living with it, that we wouldnt have been able to do it. You wouldnt have been able to give it the objectivity. It wouldnt have been as fresh and honest. Tom Atencios timing was perfect, really. The interesting thing about the documentary is that Ive never heard Bernard and Stephen talk about Joy Division like that. Its something that we didnt do, and we havent done.
EB: Theres that point in the documentary where its said that men dont talk.
PH: Its true. The sad aspect of it is, that if the three of us had done the interview together, you wouldnt have said hardly anything. You just wouldnt do it. Separately youd do it. The interviews were done by John Savage, whos a great friend of ours, an old journalist from Manchester who started in the punk era just the same way that we did. So youre talking to someone you know very well, who knows the story very well. And obviously Tom Atencio weve worked with since 1982, so we know him very well. You open up to these people much more than you would do to somebody you didnt know. And, to me, in the documentary it paid off.
EB: The documentary starts with Tony Wilson saying its more than just a story about a group; its a story about a city.
PH: Yeah, thats Tony Wilsons interpretation of it that it all was about Manchester. And I suppose it is. You are subconsciously fueled by your surroundings, especially when youre a kid. And the thing is that Manchester gave me the fuel to want to get out. And ironically it draws me back, every time I leave. When I leave here now Ill be going back to Manchester. Its quite odd seeing all these places in the world, all these different cultures, and you still always go home to Manchester.
EB: Maybe Tony saw things more like a scene.
PH: Hes a journalist. Im just a stupid fucking musician. [Smiles] I dont see any further than the end of me guitar.
EB: [Laughs] Well, I did love your description of him as an alien with tentacles.
PH: [Laughs] In that time, considering Im just a working class tosser from Salford, to see somebody like him, it was like Doctor Who. It was wild.
EB: Was it hard for him to win Joy Divisions trust?
PH: Not particularly. Tony was a very confident guy. He was a star in his own right when he met us. So he always treated you in the same way, which was with a healthy dose of disdain [laughs]. He was always the boss and was treated in a sort of reverent manner. The Joy Division story is to do with Manchester. And its to do with the re-growth of Manchester that happened at the end of the 70s, and the fact that Factory Records, the Hacienda, Joy Division and New Order came from that. Its a tale of regeneration. It does have an effect on me when I see it. I find the documentary, and Control, still quite upsetting really. It really does tug at your heartstrings. Its always difficult for me to watch either of them. I certainly dont find it a joyous occasion. But I do think that the two of them go together so well, which was something I didnt expect. Very surprised. I was fuckin amazed at some of the stuff Tom got because he had stuff that I hadnt heard. And I was like, Whered you get that from?! Everybody has a different memory. It was hilarious last night when the documentary said that Bernard came up with the name for Joy Division. I dont remember that at all. As far as I was concerned, it was Ian that had the book the House of Dolls and came up with the name Joy Division. So his memory of it is completely fuckin opposite to mine.
EB: Everything Ive read has linked it to Ian as well.
PH: Yeah, it was Ian! It was Ians book. [Laughs] Its funny that everybody has a different memory. And none of it is true. It has to be an amalgamation of it thats true. It depends who you ask.
EB: Even a documentary is just a patchwork semblance of what really happened. One thing thats said in the end of the documentary is that since there were only two things Joy Division actually created, Unknown Pleasures and Closer, that everything since has just been merchandising memory.
PH: Yeah. Well, it probably would have been nice if the merchandising memory was actually done by the band.
EB: [Laughs]
PH: It was quite interesting. Because we were punks when we first began, we didnt do fan clubs, we didnt do t-shirts we felt it was crap and it was robbing people and it was mindless cashing in. We didnt do Joy Division t-shirts. Ever. But when we got investigated by the tax man because of the Hacienda, the tax man said to us, What I see whenever I walk round Manchester is Joy Division t-shirts. And in your accounts I dont see any money for Joy Division t-shirts. Wheres the money for the Joy Division t-shirts? And we said, Well, we dont do them because we dont believe in it; we think its cheap merchandising gimmick. And he went, Well frankly I dont believe you and Im fining you.
EB: Wow.
PH: He fined us for hiding our t-shirt revenue when we never fucking had any. So let that be a warning to you.
EB: [Laughs] Okay, well if I walk around and I see anyone wearing t-shirts with my name on them, Ill make sure to put a stop to it.
PH: Mhmm. Make sure you get the dough.
EB: In the early Manchester scene, one thing that is brought up in the documentary is Joy Divisions Im fucked mentality versus the Fuck you attitude of other punk bands. I thought that was a really interesting way to sum it up. Where did you find the balance?
PH: [Laughs] Yeah. I think the balance was sort of thrust upon you, really. If anything, as Bernard says, and as I said last night, we must be the only two people that dont like Unknown Pleasures, which is quite ironic when youre the one who bloody wrote it. Quite odd, really. The thing is, I appreciate it now what Martin [Hannett, the producer] did. At the time I was too young. I was too obnoxious -- a full of myself youngster -- to appreciate anything. To me, Martin was like you parents fuck off. Thats why I became a punk, so I could tell everyone to fuck off, and thats it.
EB: What was it about that album that you thought made it so impenetrable?
PH: I thought it was too subtle. I wanted it to be the way we sounded live, like the Ramones. [Laughs] But Im prepared to admit that I was wrong. Martin gave it a depth, gave it the appeal and the ability to last a long time. To get music that you can lose yourself in is quite rare. Martin had that ability. He made Joy Division so that you could lose yourself. He proved that he could make it last, and he did make it last. I think Bernard and I would have made a much more one-dimensional record, because it was always Bernard and I who were the most pushy. Martin made a very three-dimensional, if not four-dimensional, record. Something you could lose yourself in; it had lasting power. [Laughs] He was a fucking maniac a really weird character. A genius, but obviously troubled. He was a gift to us and basically Bernard and I learned how to do produce so then when he got difficult, we got rid of him and did it ourselves. Its all about ego isnt it?
EB: When you started you could barely play your instruments but then
PH: it all happened so quick. That was the thing about punk. The ideology of it was lets not wait, lets do it now. It was very instantaneous. What I liked about punk was that you admired the people who just got up and did it, regardless of whether it was bad or good. The thing you appreciated was that they just got up and did it. There was one wonderful band from Manchester called The Worst and they were the worst. They had no songs; it was just a drummer and a guitarist and theyd just do it. That was what punk was all about. It couldnt last. It was like bloody metal machine music. But in the context of what we were doing -- and the building that we were using, a squat on Oxford road in Manchester for all the bands to play in -- it was perfect.
EB: The first TV appearance you guys did was Granada, right?
PH: Yeah, I remember how nervous we were. I remember going out in the afternoon and Rob Gretton [Joy Divisions manager] buying me that shirt that I wore because he felt that the shirt that I had was too scruffy. So he took me and paid 3 pound 50 for that shirt and I wore it that night. I wore it for ages until it got ripped when I did a gig with Dexys Midnight Runners in Birmingham. I can remember ripping that fucking shirt on me bass cab.
EB: Was it emotional?
PH: It was. I remember I was really pissed off. Really fucking annoyed because I liked that shirt. But its the nerves mainly. I remember how nervous we were [to play Granada]. That was a big thing to happen to you. It was fantastic. I remember the momentous occasion very well. To get to go to Granada studios, and to go into the Cantina dressing rooms, it was like, fuckin hell!
EB: Like you said, it all happened very quickly. Do you think you were ever fully aware of how much that momentum had caught up to you guys or how much pressure was mounting towards the end?
PH: No, we were very young and very fit so we were ok. You were only aware of the pull it was having on Ian because he wasnt well. So that was a problem. The thing is, when you start you desperately want to play anywhere and do anything. It was interesting because I remember us doing a concert in Oldham near Manchester as Joy Division and nobody came. Nobody. No one. [Laughs]
EB: Just a dog and the bartender?
PH: Just the bartender. And he started sweeping up while we were on. Then six months later youre playing to a packed room. Same material but to a crowd that are going ape shit. Its wild when you think of the gulf in that. We started getting popular after the Buzzcocks tour, which was wonderful because we actually blew the Buzzcocks off a couple of nights fucking blew em out of the water. It was fantastic. Hilarious. We started getting offered loads of gigs and Ian, even though he was ill, because hed being working for this and working towards this, was desperate to do the gigs. It was heartbreaking for him to have to admit that physically he wasnt up to it, and he fought that right til the end. He was his own worst enemy. Basically what Ian would do to you, youd say, Ian youre ill. Maybe you shouldnt be doing this. And hed go, Im fine, dont worry about me, Im fine. And youd go, Thank God for that. Right, lets get on with it. It was always him. He was never pushed to these gigs kicking and screaming. He pushed himself because he didnt want to let you down.
On our part, you can only put it down to inexperience and naivet. I did a Radio 4 thing in England recently, and the guy said to me, How could you let that happen? And youre like, Oh fuck. But its true, you see. How could you let it happen? You dickhead, you fucking did that. How could you let that happen? Youre like, Oh fuck, I did that. We did. We should have stopped it. But we were all so caught up in the whole occasion and because Ian was going, Dont worry, youre fine, Ill look after me self, well be all right. Youre like, Oh thank God we dont have to worry about that now he said that hes okay.
EB: But dont you think at a certain point, because you guys were so young, it was the responsibilities of your managers with the experience not to let that happen? Somebody on the periphery looking out? Where were they?
PH: Yes. There was a lot more people that made bigger mistakes. His psychiatrist, his doctor, the people treating him in the hospital, they all fucking let him go.
EB: I dont think its up to a bunch of 22-year-olds to be able to
PH: Yeah, but it still doesnt stop you from not feeling responsible. It also doesnt stop people from turning around and saying to you that its all your fault. But there is a responsibility, which I suppose is one of the things you have to live with What if Id have done this? If it happened to me 10 or 20 years ago, I would have just gone, Stop fucking sort it out. Then we were too young, too nave, too hopeful and you were so grateful for the things that you were being given, you were desperate not to pass it up. It was a combination of all that, plus the guy telling you it was ok. None of us knew. It was really, really sad. I was with him the night before he died and I drove him home and we were so excited about going to America. That was why I was in such shock when I was told because Id been with him on Friday night. I drove him home. Howd you get from that to that? Fuckin hell man. Its unbelievable. It was unbelievable. Who the fuck knows what happened.
EB: For a lot of people the end of Joy Division was a symbolic loss. And the fact that the band never made it to America just made it even more precious to Manchester.
PH: Yeah, even I often wonder what would have happened. Whether thats a good or bad thing, I dont know, really. Its a very difficult decision. I was doing an interview before and the guy said to me, Oh, youve been in two of the most important bands of the 80s and 90s," and I suppose the thing is, if Ian hadnt have died it would have been one band. Its weird the way that things work out, really. People always say, Well what do you think Joy Division would have been like if Ian had lived? And I think Blue Monday would have been by Joy Division, with Ian singing. I dont think our development would have changed that much. With Ian singing New Order, I think you would have gone the same way.
EB: You have the New Order Live In Glasgow DVD that just came out. Whats going on with that?
PH: Well, it was planned before New Order split up. The record company asked us if wed do one this tour so it was done simply as that. Stephen and I got involved in the production of it. We oversaw the editing, put the pictures together, we mixed the sound and put it all together. Stephen went and collected the rare and unseen footage, which I thought was wonderful. [Laughs] But when I saw the headline New Order Celebrates Career in Glasgow, I dont remember it being very celebratory, to be honest, but maybe thats just me. It was nice to be involved in it. I think one of the bad things thats happened to musicians is that when you dont get involved in everything that you do, then theres no quality control and that I find off-putting and is a sad part of our business. So I was delighted to be involved in it and to do it to the best of our ability. Its all the more poignant because New Order have split up. It makes it quite an odd situation. To be honest with you, its an odd situation to be here talking about it. Because Id rather not. [Laughs]
EB: Then you dont have to
PH: [Laughs] No, I dont mind. The thing is, whilst my memories of New Order at the moment are very clouded by the split and what happened after it, Im the first one to sit up and look at it and go, Well fucking hell we achieved something wonderful. And Im glad, especially because Stephen and I were involved in doing this one. This is a celebration of our career; it just wasnt a very celebratory night. Basically we were all getting on each others fucking nerves. We were all sick to death of each other and it wasnt a great atmosphere, but as it happens, your professionalism overcame that and you still created something wonderful. I suppose thats the thing about the chemistry of groups, is that a group can still hate each other but actually create something quite brilliant. You always seem to need a bit of angst and a bit of pain to make great music. So I suppose New Order were very lucky in that they found a way to stay in constant pain. [Laughs].
EB: Well whats up next for you?
PH: These days I'm deejaying. Im on the old fucker who used to be in a band circuit, as my mate calls it. And Ive got a new group Im working on called Freebase, with Manny who used to be in the Stone Roses, and Andy Rourke who used to be in the Smiths, which is coming along quite well, yeah. Im quite happy.
Joy Division, the documentary, is out now on DVD. Buy it here. Also available on DVD is New Order: Live in Glasgow. Buy it here.
VIEW 13 of 13 COMMENTS
francblack:
Thanks, reading this interview, that I hadn't discovered until now, really made my day!
tourniquette:
So great!