I thought some of you may want to see this... this is a conversation I had today with someone I've known for... 7-8 years I think. His name and SN has been changed for his own sake of course.
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Bob: You don't care for politics, I take it.
PaxilWench: i do sometimes
Bob: Yes, well, I'm very much into politics.
PaxilWench: our politics probably dont mix well
PaxilWench: so im dancing carefully around it sweets
Bob: *chuckles* And I'd be more than happy to take you up on any issues you'd present. But it wouldn't be exactly fair, as I do have a degree in Social Sciences, and I took several classes on political theory.
PaxilWench: Except the ones that would get messy are the ones where religiouse ideas become a factory
PaxilWench: IE the anti Gay Marrige measure that passed in oregon *grumbles furiously*
PaxilWench: a factor
PaxilWench: not a factory
PaxilWench: wtf at me
Bob: *smiles* It passed in all eleven states it was presented in.
PaxilWench: Yes.. I know it did
Bob: I voted define marriage as between a man and a woman in Georgia.
PaxilWench: *sighs* I kinda guessed that one
Bob: As did my wife, and we had two gay ushers at our wedding.
PaxilWench: Why?
Bob: My wife is a veritable "faery keeper," but even many of the gays we know are against gay marriage.
PaxilWench: Why?
Bob: Because, like us, they believe the institution of marriage is between a man and a woman, as a social contract to give legitimacy to the act of creating and raising a family.
PaxilWench: All a marriage is is a civil agreement... granted theres more to it... but why deny two people who love each other the right to marriage? I mean... look at it this way... whether or not you think homosexuality is wrong is not the point its whether you think that someone has the right to judge another person on what they feel and believe... I dont think its right to tell someone that they can't sign a paper to save their significant others life just because they are both men or women.
PaxilWench: I've never had issues with people who think that Homosexuality is wrong... I dont agree with them but I dont force my belifes on them... Iand I think that that particular measure forces belifes on a bunch of people.. if its a relgiouse issue than dont alow people of the same sex to marry weithin your relgiouse circle.. but why make illegal for them to do it in their own space?
Bob: Then let them have a civil union. By allowing homosexual marriage, you infringe on my right to affirm the truth of my relationship with my wife as that between a man and a woman.
PaxilWench: How so? The truth of your love for your wife is still there... it just makes it stronger... I mean it says you had the right to not only marry any woman but any man as well.. and you still chose her. Im not saying you would choose a man of course.. but you get what Im saying.
PaxilWench: Do you realize that because of how it was stated that Technicly it also means that divorcing someone and marrying someone else is technicly illegal... or if your wife or husband dies.. you cant get married again... no ones gunna push it.. until one angry homosexual couple decideds to challenge it and take it to court.
Bob: And the point your missing is that by allowing gays to have the same marrital status as heterosexuals will dillute the importance of the institution as it is known, dilluting even further than it is already is.
PaxilWench: How would it dillute it?
PaxilWench: This country was brought together and based on the idea of people from Engl;and who wernt alowed to think and feel what they belived to be right... its suppose to be about the freedom of choice for everyone.. so you say it dillutes the power of marriage dosnt making gay marriges illegal dillute what america therefor stands for?
Bob: By redefining it.
PaxilWench: But they wernt redefining it... they were asking to have what was already written left alone.
Bob: So, if I were to take your ideology, I should therefore be allowed to do whatever I please, right?
Bob: And what was already written defines marriage as between a man and a woman.
PaxilWench: You should be alowed to do whatever you please as long as you bring no harm to others or yourself.
PaxilWench: No it dosnt... they are changing it to say that.
Bob: *laughs* Depends on what text you read and where you read it.
Bob: The original text, AKA The Bible, clearly defines it as between a man and a woman.
PaxilWench: If it was already written that way then why was their need for a constitutional amendment?
Bob: And don't even get me started on the abominable acts of homosexuality in general.
PaxilWench: The Bible is the backbone of faiths hun.. not the backbone of america...
Bob: To reaffirm the writ in order to prevent activist judges from pushing their agenda on society, as they did in Roe v. Wade and other cases.
Bob: Biblical scripture is, I'm sorry to say, the basis on which many of our laws were written.
PaxilWench: many not all...
Bob: By letting judges make the call on gay marriage and the like, you undermine democracy.
Bob: And in case you couldn't tell, the people have decided, even in such a liberal a state as Oregon.
PaxilWench: So instead america should be able to judge people and put bias legalties down.. correct?
Bob: Almost all of the founding laws were written on Biblical principles.
PaxilWench: I think the only reason it passed in Oregon Bob is because the word marrige was used instead of the words civial agreement
Bob: Majority rules so long as minority rights are protected. No homosexuals are being injured or prevented from life, liberty or happiness . . . therefore the majority rules.
PaxilWench: Im not disagreeing with that but youre still suppose to have the freedom to your own faith and your own thoughts... and doing this hinders that for some people.
Bob: There is a difference, Simi, between Civil Unions and Marriage.
PaxilWench: Happiness...
Bob: I agree with gays having Civil Unions, but Marriage is between a man and a womn.
Bob: Oh, you can't be happy unless your married, Simi?
Bob: *smirks* That's a weak argument.
PaxilWench: No it isnt
PaxilWench: How would you feel if you were told that your wife was in the hospital and that she needed a certain surgery and you couldnt make the descion
PaxilWench: even though shes out like a light
Bob: When one person's "rights" infringe on another's, then that person no longer has that right. So, when a homosexual's desire to redefine the terms of my social contract . . . I believe that's infringement.
PaxilWench: the decsion to pull her plug lets say or keep her going as a veggie.. thats left to her 3rd cousin because your not alowed to and the rest of her family is dead
Bob: Decisions involving morality and public interest should never be based on off-the-wall extraneous circumstances; that's a bastion of liberal ideology and political debate tactic.
PaxilWench: But they arnt infringing on anything.. they arnt even asking to change anything written down.. they are merely asking to have the same rights as anyone else and to be seen as equals.
PaxilWench: It's like making it illegal for two people to marry because their religions are diffrent.
Bob: Simi, a Civil Union would address the circumstance you're mentioning. I'm not about to vote to give homosexuals marriage. Civil Unions, yes. Marriage, no.
Bob: This has nothing to do with religion and much more to do with societal structure and standard. Marriage is a legitimization for raising a family. Those who support are the same sort of communist, secularists who support gay adoption of children.
PaxilWench: I have to go take a shower and get ready to go out hun... do you have any issies if I change the SN's and any place Ive mention your actual name and post this in my journal?
PaxilWench: Not everyone agrees that its just to raise a family
PaxilWench: I can't have kids
PaxilWench: does that mean I shouldnt have the right to marry?
Bob: Marry any man you want. You can adopt.
PaxilWench: so can two women or two men though
Bob: Feel free to do as you please in regard to this conversation. I was only half-participating anyway. *will give you a few links on the subject later*
Bob: It's not a legitimate, healthy family unit.
PaxilWench: How so? YOu have two parents who love or dont love their children.. you have that with a man and wife as well.
PaxilWench: Homosexuality isn't something you're taught into being it's something that you are or you arn't... terefor they can't make the kid be gay.
PaxilWench: They still have morals, and know whats right and wrong as much as anyone else.. .they are human...
Bob: *snickers* You don't even want to touch the "nature or nurture" debate with me on this issue.
PaxilWench: I do actually.. but I don't have the time right now
PaxilWench: I really have to get ready to go out.
Bob: Well then . . . perhaps another time we can touch abortion and state's rights.
Bob: Because really . . . these arguments (gay marriage and abortion) boil down to state's rights and the First Amendment.
Bob: And until you can successfully argue against state's rights, I don't think you can successfully argue for abortion or gay marriage.
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Yeah... there ya go.
****
Bob: You don't care for politics, I take it.
PaxilWench: i do sometimes
Bob: Yes, well, I'm very much into politics.
PaxilWench: our politics probably dont mix well
PaxilWench: so im dancing carefully around it sweets
Bob: *chuckles* And I'd be more than happy to take you up on any issues you'd present. But it wouldn't be exactly fair, as I do have a degree in Social Sciences, and I took several classes on political theory.
PaxilWench: Except the ones that would get messy are the ones where religiouse ideas become a factory
PaxilWench: IE the anti Gay Marrige measure that passed in oregon *grumbles furiously*
PaxilWench: a factor
PaxilWench: not a factory
PaxilWench: wtf at me
Bob: *smiles* It passed in all eleven states it was presented in.
PaxilWench: Yes.. I know it did
Bob: I voted define marriage as between a man and a woman in Georgia.
PaxilWench: *sighs* I kinda guessed that one
Bob: As did my wife, and we had two gay ushers at our wedding.
PaxilWench: Why?
Bob: My wife is a veritable "faery keeper," but even many of the gays we know are against gay marriage.
PaxilWench: Why?
Bob: Because, like us, they believe the institution of marriage is between a man and a woman, as a social contract to give legitimacy to the act of creating and raising a family.
PaxilWench: All a marriage is is a civil agreement... granted theres more to it... but why deny two people who love each other the right to marriage? I mean... look at it this way... whether or not you think homosexuality is wrong is not the point its whether you think that someone has the right to judge another person on what they feel and believe... I dont think its right to tell someone that they can't sign a paper to save their significant others life just because they are both men or women.
PaxilWench: I've never had issues with people who think that Homosexuality is wrong... I dont agree with them but I dont force my belifes on them... Iand I think that that particular measure forces belifes on a bunch of people.. if its a relgiouse issue than dont alow people of the same sex to marry weithin your relgiouse circle.. but why make illegal for them to do it in their own space?
Bob: Then let them have a civil union. By allowing homosexual marriage, you infringe on my right to affirm the truth of my relationship with my wife as that between a man and a woman.
PaxilWench: How so? The truth of your love for your wife is still there... it just makes it stronger... I mean it says you had the right to not only marry any woman but any man as well.. and you still chose her. Im not saying you would choose a man of course.. but you get what Im saying.
PaxilWench: Do you realize that because of how it was stated that Technicly it also means that divorcing someone and marrying someone else is technicly illegal... or if your wife or husband dies.. you cant get married again... no ones gunna push it.. until one angry homosexual couple decideds to challenge it and take it to court.
Bob: And the point your missing is that by allowing gays to have the same marrital status as heterosexuals will dillute the importance of the institution as it is known, dilluting even further than it is already is.
PaxilWench: How would it dillute it?
PaxilWench: This country was brought together and based on the idea of people from Engl;and who wernt alowed to think and feel what they belived to be right... its suppose to be about the freedom of choice for everyone.. so you say it dillutes the power of marriage dosnt making gay marriges illegal dillute what america therefor stands for?
Bob: By redefining it.
PaxilWench: But they wernt redefining it... they were asking to have what was already written left alone.
Bob: So, if I were to take your ideology, I should therefore be allowed to do whatever I please, right?
Bob: And what was already written defines marriage as between a man and a woman.
PaxilWench: You should be alowed to do whatever you please as long as you bring no harm to others or yourself.
PaxilWench: No it dosnt... they are changing it to say that.
Bob: *laughs* Depends on what text you read and where you read it.
Bob: The original text, AKA The Bible, clearly defines it as between a man and a woman.
PaxilWench: If it was already written that way then why was their need for a constitutional amendment?
Bob: And don't even get me started on the abominable acts of homosexuality in general.
PaxilWench: The Bible is the backbone of faiths hun.. not the backbone of america...
Bob: To reaffirm the writ in order to prevent activist judges from pushing their agenda on society, as they did in Roe v. Wade and other cases.
Bob: Biblical scripture is, I'm sorry to say, the basis on which many of our laws were written.
PaxilWench: many not all...
Bob: By letting judges make the call on gay marriage and the like, you undermine democracy.
Bob: And in case you couldn't tell, the people have decided, even in such a liberal a state as Oregon.
PaxilWench: So instead america should be able to judge people and put bias legalties down.. correct?
Bob: Almost all of the founding laws were written on Biblical principles.
PaxilWench: I think the only reason it passed in Oregon Bob is because the word marrige was used instead of the words civial agreement
Bob: Majority rules so long as minority rights are protected. No homosexuals are being injured or prevented from life, liberty or happiness . . . therefore the majority rules.
PaxilWench: Im not disagreeing with that but youre still suppose to have the freedom to your own faith and your own thoughts... and doing this hinders that for some people.
Bob: There is a difference, Simi, between Civil Unions and Marriage.
PaxilWench: Happiness...
Bob: I agree with gays having Civil Unions, but Marriage is between a man and a womn.
Bob: Oh, you can't be happy unless your married, Simi?
Bob: *smirks* That's a weak argument.
PaxilWench: No it isnt
PaxilWench: How would you feel if you were told that your wife was in the hospital and that she needed a certain surgery and you couldnt make the descion
PaxilWench: even though shes out like a light
Bob: When one person's "rights" infringe on another's, then that person no longer has that right. So, when a homosexual's desire to redefine the terms of my social contract . . . I believe that's infringement.
PaxilWench: the decsion to pull her plug lets say or keep her going as a veggie.. thats left to her 3rd cousin because your not alowed to and the rest of her family is dead
Bob: Decisions involving morality and public interest should never be based on off-the-wall extraneous circumstances; that's a bastion of liberal ideology and political debate tactic.
PaxilWench: But they arnt infringing on anything.. they arnt even asking to change anything written down.. they are merely asking to have the same rights as anyone else and to be seen as equals.
PaxilWench: It's like making it illegal for two people to marry because their religions are diffrent.
Bob: Simi, a Civil Union would address the circumstance you're mentioning. I'm not about to vote to give homosexuals marriage. Civil Unions, yes. Marriage, no.
Bob: This has nothing to do with religion and much more to do with societal structure and standard. Marriage is a legitimization for raising a family. Those who support are the same sort of communist, secularists who support gay adoption of children.
PaxilWench: I have to go take a shower and get ready to go out hun... do you have any issies if I change the SN's and any place Ive mention your actual name and post this in my journal?
PaxilWench: Not everyone agrees that its just to raise a family
PaxilWench: I can't have kids
PaxilWench: does that mean I shouldnt have the right to marry?
Bob: Marry any man you want. You can adopt.
PaxilWench: so can two women or two men though
Bob: Feel free to do as you please in regard to this conversation. I was only half-participating anyway. *will give you a few links on the subject later*
Bob: It's not a legitimate, healthy family unit.
PaxilWench: How so? YOu have two parents who love or dont love their children.. you have that with a man and wife as well.
PaxilWench: Homosexuality isn't something you're taught into being it's something that you are or you arn't... terefor they can't make the kid be gay.
PaxilWench: They still have morals, and know whats right and wrong as much as anyone else.. .they are human...
Bob: *snickers* You don't even want to touch the "nature or nurture" debate with me on this issue.
PaxilWench: I do actually.. but I don't have the time right now
PaxilWench: I really have to get ready to go out.
Bob: Well then . . . perhaps another time we can touch abortion and state's rights.
Bob: Because really . . . these arguments (gay marriage and abortion) boil down to state's rights and the First Amendment.
Bob: And until you can successfully argue against state's rights, I don't think you can successfully argue for abortion or gay marriage.
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Yeah... there ya go.
VIEW 18 of 18 COMMENTS
I'm frickin moving to Canada. I swear.
[Edited on Nov 18, 2004 10:09AM]