anderswolleck

You dont get much more iconic than Fred Williamson. Hes been loved for different things in every decade of his career. He started out famously as a professional football player with the moniker "The Hammer" and was a star defensive back for the Pittsburgh Steelers, the Oakland Raiders and the Kansas City Chiefs. The name "The Hammer" worked out well for the next phase of his career as an action movie star, in famous grindhouse flicks like Black Caesar and Mr. Mean. During the 80s he took control of his career forming his own production company, Po Boy Productions so he could write, direct, produce and still star in movies. The 90s was a major comeback for Williamson after Robert Rodriguez and Quentin Tarantino cast him in From Dusk Till Dawn and he continued his hot streak with Original Gangstas. By the time Williamson had directed Vegas Vampires in 2003 (though it was just released on DVD) he had over 20 movies as director under his belt. I got a chance to talk with the legend from his home in California.

Daniel Robert Epstein: What made you want to co-write, direct, produce and have a role in Vegas Vampires?

Fred Williamson: Thats what I do. Thats the kind of guy I am. Ive made 30 or 40 films like that. Most of them Ive written and produced and directed and starred in. Vegas Vamps is just another film for me to do and I wanted to do it because it was a challenge. It was a challenge because they had no money and no experience and only me.

DRE: [laughs] How did they pick you?

Fred: There were a couple of brothers running around getting dollars from here and there. They had never done a film before, they needed help and they were friends so I jumped in. They knew that I could do all those things but it was quite an undertaking.

DRE: You have one of my favorite actors in there, Tommy 'Tiny' Lister. Hes a guy in who, in a lot of ways, could be the modern equivalent of you.

Fred: Not really, my eyes look in the same direction so Im not buying that comparison, thank you very much [laughs].

DRE: Is he someone that youve known for a long time?

Fred: Yeah, all brothers know each other, man. Thats the way it is. We cling, we hang on, we suffer together and sometimes we even prosper together, but most of the time we suffer together.

DRE: [laughs] Ive heard that somewhere. Do you still have Po Boy Productions?

Fred: Po Boy is alive and well.

DRE: Was Vegas Vampires a Po Boy production?

Fred: Im not sure because I wasnt looking for a lot of credit it. I was really trying to help out two struggling brothers who had found some money and were told that they could pull this off, but the budget was spit. If they could pull this off then they could get more money to do a bigger film. They knew that I could do the film with no money and make it look like it cost more than what it did, which I think we accomplished. But they didnt really get another deal to do a better film so they got scammed a little bit.

DRE: I read that youre not really interested in doing big prestige type films. Youre interested in helping people out in trying to get movies made.

Fred: Now what the hell is a prestige film? Because they cost 50 or 60 million, does that make it a prestige film? Does that guarantee that the film is going to make money? If I made a big budget film nobody would make money except for the distributor. I wouldnt make a dime off the film at the back end because theyre always going to give me records showing that I owe them money and they dont owe me money. Thats the way the game is played. So Im interested in satisfying my public and the independent marketplace with movies for DVD, for cable, for video, and particularly foreign because my foreign market is ten times bigger than my USA market. Anytime I make a film in America and Im the only black person in it and everyone else is white, its still Fred Williamsons latest black film. In Europe, its Fred Williamsons latest action movie.

DRE: [laughs] Youve been writing, directing, producing since the beginning of your movie career.

Fred: Ive always envisioned myself as a hero in personal life and I have tried to live that way. I know that Im a role model so Im not coming into Hollywood and do Yessir boss films and do Yessir boss characters. I gave Hollywood three rules. One, you cant kill me in my movies. Two, I win all the fights in my movies. Three, I get the girl at the end of the movie if I want. They werent quite ready for that because I was way ahead of my time. I said, Okay, the only way Im going to do that is make my own movies. I know damn well that Im going to get the girl and I aint dying in my own movie so thats really why I started doing it.

DRE: Its worked out pretty good [laughs].

Fred: All you got to do is make money. To make it work all you got to do is make people money. They dont care what color you are, what drink you drink or what car you drive, if you can make them money, you can make a deal.

DRE: I know you were always a tough guy but have you always been as smart about business since even before you got into the movies?

Fred: Youve got to understand. Im a ghetto boy from the south side of Chicago. That alone gives me a specific type of knowledge on how to survive and how to make it when you dont have anything. From the ghetto I went to Northwestern University. I was the first black athlete at Northwestern University only because I had a B+, A- average coming out of high school. I graduated from Northwestern University with an architectural engineering degree. Now, that shows you that Ive got some brains and some moxie somewhere there. I know its very hard and difficult to have an athlete and an egghead all in the same body but thusly arrives The Hammer. Now, I go into pro football in San Francisco because I wanted to do architecture there. I had an off-season job working for a company as an architect while I was still playing pro football. My desire was to play football for a little while then go full time into architecture. But I noticed that if you ask somebody to name the offensive quarterback or the running back on their favorite team, they could do it in two seconds. But if I asked them to name the four defensive backs, they couldnt do it. You might get one linebacker and one cornerback, but I dont think you could name all four defensive backs. So I said Somethings wrong with this situation. I devised a marketing campaign for me and one was to be the first to wear white shoes. I started wearing white shoes in 1963. Namath didnt wear white shoes until 1966. The league fined me a $100 a game for wearing white shoes because they said I was breaking the dress code. Now I had little pads on my arms that said The Hammer and for that they fined me $150 a game. They said I was advocating violence and they didnt want that. It cost me $250 to play because of the fines and I was only making $375. But it was marketing, it was what I was going to do after football. What was The Hammers life going to be after football? Whatever it was, I was going to be promoted as The Hammer because thats how they got to know me. So Ive always been conscious of marketing.

DRE: How come modern athletes dont think like that?

Fred: Thats because today marketing is being overly arrogant, being indignant, trying to show that you can challenge the man because the man needs you and you dont really need him. Thats degrading to them and once you become degrading, then you become unnecessary. They can replace you, even though you think you cant be replaced, aint no one thats bigger than the game.

DRE: Did you just learn how to be a director from all the great directors that you worked with in the 70s?

Fred: Not really. When I first started working I made it a conscious effort to understand and learn the business of the business. I never left the set. I was not the guy who would sit in his dressing room and they would send the girls in and bring me the caviar and the champagne. I never left the set. I asked questions. What is that thing? Why do you move that over there? If you pull this over here what happens? If I put that over here, what do you call that light? What does all that mean? So I absorbed the knowledge of the industry when I had the opportunity to do so.

DRE: Was Larry Cohen a big influence on your work?

Fred: Larry Cohen was the master, hes no longer now. Hes big time now. He gets bigger money so he has bigger budgets. But he was a great guerilla filmmaker. He would just run around and shoot and get a permit only when you needed it. I learned a lot from Larry about guerilla filmmaking which is really where the fun is. Why you stop the traffic and pay 25 cars to drive up and down the street, why? Why not just stand there and wait for 25 cars to drive up and down the street? Just go out there and shoot them. Thats guerilla filmmaking.

DRE: Some of your old collaborators just released Grindhouse and a lot of that harkens back to the some of the films you did in the 70s.

Fred: Quentin [Tarantino] is the first to admit to that. Quentin is the first to tell you that his film influence comes from the 70s, from the black genre, from all the films that he used to sneak into the theater and see. He did that with Pam Grier and Jackie Brown. His influence comes from the 70s because it had grit and grind. Now hes gone overboard a little bit because he has money to do special effects but what intrigued him in the beginning was to make the characters important. In the 70s we had no money to do special effects so the character was important. The way he walked, the way he talked, the way he dressed, that was important. That was the characters in the 70s and thats what Quentin wanted. Now hes got more money so he can blow up the world and blow up 19 cars.

DRE: I think youll be surprised when you see Quentins film in Grindhouse. I think itll be different for you. Would you like to see a resurgence for you in terms of theatrical releases in America?

Fred: No, Im happy doing what Im doing because every film that Ive ever made has been a success. Ive never made a film thats lost money. Just because you spend more money doesnt mean youre going to make more money and to doesnt mean that the film is going to be a success. When I came out of football I was tired of being in a situation where people made more money off me than I did. Ive been trying to correct that situation ever since I got out of football.

DRE: Years ago you lied to one of the producers [on the sitcom] Julia to get on that show. Have you ever caught someone in a lie who was trying to work with you?

Fred: Yeah, but if you look like you can do what you say you can do, then you get an opportunity. But if you dont go in and challenge the system and be prepared to live up to whatever it is that you say that you can do, itll never change. You see me in an action movie beating up ten or 12 guys but the only reason I can do it is because I am in shape. So people dont challenge me, they dont say, Oh man that wasnt you, you cant do that. When I went to that producer on the Julia show, I said, Im just what you need. When you have guest stars on the show it is usually Julias new boyfriend. Im the best looking guy on the planet here and Im much better looking than any of those guys that come in and do guest star roles on your show. He said, Well, you ever acted before? I said, Man, I did five years of A Raisin in the Sun in Canada. I told him I did it in Canada because if Id have said New York hed have asked me what repertoire company I was with. I told him I did it in Canada because I know he didnt know shit about that. He wrote an episode for me where I played a pro football player who retired and came to work for the same company as Julia worked for. Then I was on the show for three years.

DRE: Will you hire someone that has no acting experience but has a great look and wants to work?

Fred: Yeah, casting is real easy. Only big guys make casting hard. When people walk in the door, with presence and style, you know right away if thats what youre looking for. Then its up to the director to create and bring out the talent in the person. Back in the day when you were going to an audition youd see 25 people sitting in a room all reading for the same part as you. Based on that, it aint acting talent man, when you walk in the door the producer and the director know from your presence if youre right for the part and the rest is all bullshit.

DRE: Have you ever had a desire to do sequels to some of your more popular older films?

Fred: Im dying to do two sequels. Im biting at the bit trying to convince people to do a sequel to Black Caesar. Im trying to do a sequel to Original Gangstas. But the big boys dont get it. If I tell them I can make a sequel for two million dollars and its going to make them $80 million, they dont get it. They dont want to be involved. They say, Oh we spend two million bucks just thinking about making a movie. Stop thinking, I want to make you some money people. If you dont go in there talking about a 40 or 50 million dollar movie, they dont hear you. That means Ive still got to kick down doors, pawn watches and steal cars to try to get money to make a movie.

DRE: If you did a sequel to Black Caesar, would you want to star in it?

Fred: Yeah, I see the old guy becoming like the Sopranos. He becomes the Padroni of the black neighborhood. Some girl comes to him and says, Look, my boyfriend has been kicking my ass for two weeks. Can you help me? I would send someone there saying, Joe, go down there. Talk to the dude, man. Tell him to leave the girl alone. If he hits her again well take care of him.

DRE: Hollywood always seems to think that if it is about black mobsters that it has to involve drugs.

Fred: Right, if they look at Black Caesar, it was like an Edward G. Robinson character. Rob from the rich, give to the poor, never forget your family and take care of your mother. Back in the 40s and 50s with the George Raft and Humphrey Bogart movies, those guys were gangsters but you never knew what they did. They just ran the neighborhoods. They never clearly said what they did to become gangsters and that was very clever and very smart. Today we got to be drug dealers, we got to be pimps. We got to be something thats really negative. But being a gangster aint necessarily negative if youre not portraying exactly what you did to become a gangster. Thats what Black Caesar was. You never knew what I did in Black Caesar. I made sure I was not a drug dealer. In fact, in Hell Up in Harlem I was adamantly against drugs.

DRE: Whats the next project youre working on?

Fred: Im talking to two companies now about doing the remake or sequel to Black Caesar. In about a month I start a film in Jamaica called Black Kissinger. It is a James Bond type film with me playing that character. Now I did that once in 1971 with Universal. I had a three picture deal with Universal. I made a film called That Man Bolt [in 1973]. I was the first black James Bond type character. We shot it in Hong Kong, Las Vegas, LA. The film did a ton of money but [Head of Universal at the time] Lew Wasserman called me into his office and said, Listen, we dont know what to do with you. We dont know what film to make with you next. We dont want to be a company involved in making black films so they just paid me off. This was before Shaft. They said, Look, well revisit this in a couple years but right now were just going to pay you off for the next pictures that we owe you. They gave me a check and the next year they had Shaft. Then they came back to me but by then I was already getting involved in my own stuff. So I said, No you guys go on and do your thing right now. Im doing independent stuff so I dont want to make you guys a gazillion dollars while youre giving me peanut money. So I walked away from that deal.

DRE: I read that years ago you had a cute little Shih Tzu dog. Do you still have that one?

Fred: I have two of them, Russ and Buster.

DRE: What attracted you to having a little tiny dog?

Fred: Its the male psychology. If you look around man, youll see that big guys like little things. Little guys like big things to show they are equal to big tall guys. Little guys want the big tall chicks so he can say, Yeah, I can do the same things you can, man and go around and strut. Little men have big cars. Big guys buy little sports cars. Its what it is man, its what it is.

by Daniel Robert Epstein

SG Username: AndersWolleck