Filmmaker Marc Levin has always flitted back and forth from fiction to documentary films. Whether hes examining the clandestine tactics of the Central Intelligence Agency in CIA: America's Secret Warriors or giving Danny Hoch a chance to shine as a wannabe hip-hop star in a virtually all-white Iowa town in Whiteboyz.
Now his latest film puts him in the forefront and examines the history of what could be called the Lords of the Rings of bullshit, the Protocols of Zion.
The Protocols of Zion is a Czarist Russian tract that was passed off in the late 19th century as the master plan for Jewish world domination. It has since been debunked hundreds of times. It still has its believers and has gained new strength since the horseshit idea that no Jews died in 9/11 because they were warned. Levin and his aged father take a hard look at anti-Semitism in America.
Check out the official site for the Protocols of Zion
Daniel Robert Epstein: I felt like Protocols of Zion and your previous film, Slam, had a lot in common. Its both about outspoken people but this time youre the outspoken person.
Marc Levin: Thats the big difference exactly. Its not Saul Williams or Ray Joshua. Slam has a prison scene and in many ways the prison scene in Protocols is very surprising because a lot of people thought it would be a descent into hell with black power and white power together. What do they share? Blame the Jews for everything.
Slam was about using the creative spirit, instead of descending into violence and hatred. But Im not the poet Ray Joshua is or the showman Michael Moore is. But I was out there trying to see if some kind of creative dialogue and engagement was a first step in a different way of dealing with these issues. So there is a similarity and I hadnt thought about it.
DRE: Some of the people you talked to that believe the Protocols is real seemed very intelligent. Can you believe that even such smart people would give credence to this asinine concept?
ML: Thats a good point. Ignorance, fear and impotence, meaning powerlessness and humiliation, are all ingredients in hate, bigotry and tolerance. But it is surprising that there are intelligent people that buy into this stuff. Its like saying intelligent people believe things about their religion and faith. This is faith-based and thats what is so fascinating about it.
DRE: I suppose its like the way one of Grandmasters of the Ku Klux Klan was Harvard educated but he believes that Jews and African-Americans are subhumans. How could any intelligent person believe that?
ML: Its mind boggling. How could anybody believe that no Jews died on 9/11? It makes no sense. Its like what youre saying. It becomes an article of faith and thats one of the challenges. Its not just intellect and reason. Its why humor is a weapon. Its why dialogue is not just debate. Its not just argument. There are other things happening.
We screened the film in Berkeley and a music professor got up and said, Im a student of how listening changes the brain and when music and people really listen to music and not as background, their brain waves change. I think I saw something in this movie that real listening is the music of meaning. It changes. It doesnt change your ideology. Youre not converted, but the atmospherics, the tone, the atmosphere changes. I had never even thought about that in making the film, but my way obviously was dialogue, listening and preemptive engagement. People said, Youre a fool. Youre expecting to convert these people? Are you giving them a platform? The platform is a risk. I understand the risk and have taken the risk in many of my films so this is not alone there. No, I didnt think they would be converted. Conversion? No. Conversation? Yes. Ive seen the dynamics and the tone change. Its incremental, but you cant have anything else until you get that.
DRE: Do you think this film could make Jews and non-Jews pay attention to this topic?
ML: Sure. I have two children and I certainly wanted the film to be accessible to the younger generation. I didnt want you to feel that if you werent an expert on the Torah or the New Testament or the Koran, you couldnt participate. Or if you didnt know about colonialism in the Middle East. This is a dialogue open to all and were all experts because all of us have some of these feelings inside us. I consciously chose to make it in what is I guess a more gonzo style. Joking around can often be a more effective way of deflating it. Larry Davids Curb Your Enthusiasm did a show three weeks ago on The Passion of the Christ and it was unbelievable. That show was just so outrageous; I was on the floor laughing. It certainly answered any questions that I ever wouldve had of him. He used humor. Thats what Im saying. Its not just getting a college professor to give you all the examples of how The Protocols is a fraud. Of course someone can say, Oh. Turns out hes a Jew too. Theres a circular thinking and to break it youve got to use everything.
DRE: If you do another documentary, do you think youll put yourself in it as much?
ML: No, Im working on two other documentaries Im not in. Its more my return to the documentaries Ive done in the past. This is probably the only film I will be in.
DRE: How did you like editing yourself?
ML: That was the hardest thing because I started in the editing room as a kid. Thats always been my safe house.
DRE: Now you had to say to I sucked there.
ML: Exactly, I found it impossible. I love being irreverent in the editing room and seeing my own mug up there. Ken Eluto was my editor and hes a brilliant guy. I had to really trust him because my instinct was to minimize me, but he had to make some of the calls. So I had to let go which was the hardest thing.
DRE: What do you think when the marketing team at ThinkFilm comes up with a poster like that?
ML: At first I was a little nervous especially in this city. Its touchy. I hope that people understand. I think that its legitimate because thats how I saw the return of the Protocols. It was wrapped up in this urban legend that the Jews were all warned and no Jews died on 9/11. Hundreds of Jews died. Then when the guy in the film says there were no Jewish funerals or services. Someone had had a service on the Upper East Side that [Governor] Pataki, [Mayor] Giuliani and all these celebrities attended. Hopefully if the film does anything, it will at least get that off the table and we can accept the Protocols as fraud. If you want to say there are certain things about Jewish power, about Israel, about American foreign policy, lets move the discussion in that direction.
DRE: Youve been making documentaries for quite a few years. Since Fahrenheit 9/11 many of them have been doing amazingly well. When making this one did you notice a change in attitude regarding documentaries?
ML: Oh yeah. This summer I remember walking down the street and there were like ten documentaries playing in theaters. Thats unheard of. I think what were witnessing is that you cant just turn the indie spirit into a formula. In the fiction world a lot of great stuff is still being done, but its almost become like the minor leagues for Hollywood. Whereas with the documentary world, its tougher. Yeah you can get into reality TV, as Morgan Spurlock did with 30 Days. But its a much harder form to just commodify and to turn into formula. So you find in a time where you have 500 cable stations, youd think the last thing in the world that would be making it in the marketplace would be documentary films.
DRE: I never thought anyone would every see any documentaries ever.
ML: But I think there is a hunger for, not only authentic and individual points of view, but people who are offering to make sense of it. The news bombards you with the so-called objective facts. The Constitution was ratified yesterday in Baghdad. Theres no what does it all mean? Then on the web its almost the opposite. Its such an overload and theres so much disinformation. Ironically the marketplace in theaters is open for filmmakers and new technology allows it to come from a personal perspective. Right before this I was doing a TV series in Canada for Showtime called Street Time. I directed the pilot and then ended up becoming the show runner. I had never done TV before, but I remember while I was doing that, I went and saw Bowling for Columbine in Toronto. I remember leaving with Richard Stratton, my partner, and saying This is the moment for documentaries. This is fantastic. I got to get back in the game here.
DRE: Do you know what youre doing next?
ML: A bunch of things. Documentaries and fiction films. The thing thats growing out of Protocols is a fiction film, which we sometimes jokingly call Jihad in Jersey. That came out of my encounters on the streets of Patterson New Jersey with some Arab-American kids. The collision of street culture, which is in Slam, with this new world of religious fanaticism. A law enforcement character, who is a non-believer in any religion, gets caught in the middle of that.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
Now his latest film puts him in the forefront and examines the history of what could be called the Lords of the Rings of bullshit, the Protocols of Zion.
The Protocols of Zion is a Czarist Russian tract that was passed off in the late 19th century as the master plan for Jewish world domination. It has since been debunked hundreds of times. It still has its believers and has gained new strength since the horseshit idea that no Jews died in 9/11 because they were warned. Levin and his aged father take a hard look at anti-Semitism in America.
Check out the official site for the Protocols of Zion
Daniel Robert Epstein: I felt like Protocols of Zion and your previous film, Slam, had a lot in common. Its both about outspoken people but this time youre the outspoken person.
Marc Levin: Thats the big difference exactly. Its not Saul Williams or Ray Joshua. Slam has a prison scene and in many ways the prison scene in Protocols is very surprising because a lot of people thought it would be a descent into hell with black power and white power together. What do they share? Blame the Jews for everything.
Slam was about using the creative spirit, instead of descending into violence and hatred. But Im not the poet Ray Joshua is or the showman Michael Moore is. But I was out there trying to see if some kind of creative dialogue and engagement was a first step in a different way of dealing with these issues. So there is a similarity and I hadnt thought about it.
DRE: Some of the people you talked to that believe the Protocols is real seemed very intelligent. Can you believe that even such smart people would give credence to this asinine concept?
ML: Thats a good point. Ignorance, fear and impotence, meaning powerlessness and humiliation, are all ingredients in hate, bigotry and tolerance. But it is surprising that there are intelligent people that buy into this stuff. Its like saying intelligent people believe things about their religion and faith. This is faith-based and thats what is so fascinating about it.
DRE: I suppose its like the way one of Grandmasters of the Ku Klux Klan was Harvard educated but he believes that Jews and African-Americans are subhumans. How could any intelligent person believe that?
ML: Its mind boggling. How could anybody believe that no Jews died on 9/11? It makes no sense. Its like what youre saying. It becomes an article of faith and thats one of the challenges. Its not just intellect and reason. Its why humor is a weapon. Its why dialogue is not just debate. Its not just argument. There are other things happening.
We screened the film in Berkeley and a music professor got up and said, Im a student of how listening changes the brain and when music and people really listen to music and not as background, their brain waves change. I think I saw something in this movie that real listening is the music of meaning. It changes. It doesnt change your ideology. Youre not converted, but the atmospherics, the tone, the atmosphere changes. I had never even thought about that in making the film, but my way obviously was dialogue, listening and preemptive engagement. People said, Youre a fool. Youre expecting to convert these people? Are you giving them a platform? The platform is a risk. I understand the risk and have taken the risk in many of my films so this is not alone there. No, I didnt think they would be converted. Conversion? No. Conversation? Yes. Ive seen the dynamics and the tone change. Its incremental, but you cant have anything else until you get that.
DRE: Do you think this film could make Jews and non-Jews pay attention to this topic?
ML: Sure. I have two children and I certainly wanted the film to be accessible to the younger generation. I didnt want you to feel that if you werent an expert on the Torah or the New Testament or the Koran, you couldnt participate. Or if you didnt know about colonialism in the Middle East. This is a dialogue open to all and were all experts because all of us have some of these feelings inside us. I consciously chose to make it in what is I guess a more gonzo style. Joking around can often be a more effective way of deflating it. Larry Davids Curb Your Enthusiasm did a show three weeks ago on The Passion of the Christ and it was unbelievable. That show was just so outrageous; I was on the floor laughing. It certainly answered any questions that I ever wouldve had of him. He used humor. Thats what Im saying. Its not just getting a college professor to give you all the examples of how The Protocols is a fraud. Of course someone can say, Oh. Turns out hes a Jew too. Theres a circular thinking and to break it youve got to use everything.
DRE: If you do another documentary, do you think youll put yourself in it as much?
ML: No, Im working on two other documentaries Im not in. Its more my return to the documentaries Ive done in the past. This is probably the only film I will be in.
DRE: How did you like editing yourself?
ML: That was the hardest thing because I started in the editing room as a kid. Thats always been my safe house.
DRE: Now you had to say to I sucked there.
ML: Exactly, I found it impossible. I love being irreverent in the editing room and seeing my own mug up there. Ken Eluto was my editor and hes a brilliant guy. I had to really trust him because my instinct was to minimize me, but he had to make some of the calls. So I had to let go which was the hardest thing.
DRE: What do you think when the marketing team at ThinkFilm comes up with a poster like that?
ML: At first I was a little nervous especially in this city. Its touchy. I hope that people understand. I think that its legitimate because thats how I saw the return of the Protocols. It was wrapped up in this urban legend that the Jews were all warned and no Jews died on 9/11. Hundreds of Jews died. Then when the guy in the film says there were no Jewish funerals or services. Someone had had a service on the Upper East Side that [Governor] Pataki, [Mayor] Giuliani and all these celebrities attended. Hopefully if the film does anything, it will at least get that off the table and we can accept the Protocols as fraud. If you want to say there are certain things about Jewish power, about Israel, about American foreign policy, lets move the discussion in that direction.
DRE: Youve been making documentaries for quite a few years. Since Fahrenheit 9/11 many of them have been doing amazingly well. When making this one did you notice a change in attitude regarding documentaries?
ML: Oh yeah. This summer I remember walking down the street and there were like ten documentaries playing in theaters. Thats unheard of. I think what were witnessing is that you cant just turn the indie spirit into a formula. In the fiction world a lot of great stuff is still being done, but its almost become like the minor leagues for Hollywood. Whereas with the documentary world, its tougher. Yeah you can get into reality TV, as Morgan Spurlock did with 30 Days. But its a much harder form to just commodify and to turn into formula. So you find in a time where you have 500 cable stations, youd think the last thing in the world that would be making it in the marketplace would be documentary films.
DRE: I never thought anyone would every see any documentaries ever.
ML: But I think there is a hunger for, not only authentic and individual points of view, but people who are offering to make sense of it. The news bombards you with the so-called objective facts. The Constitution was ratified yesterday in Baghdad. Theres no what does it all mean? Then on the web its almost the opposite. Its such an overload and theres so much disinformation. Ironically the marketplace in theaters is open for filmmakers and new technology allows it to come from a personal perspective. Right before this I was doing a TV series in Canada for Showtime called Street Time. I directed the pilot and then ended up becoming the show runner. I had never done TV before, but I remember while I was doing that, I went and saw Bowling for Columbine in Toronto. I remember leaving with Richard Stratton, my partner, and saying This is the moment for documentaries. This is fantastic. I got to get back in the game here.
DRE: Do you know what youre doing next?
ML: A bunch of things. Documentaries and fiction films. The thing thats growing out of Protocols is a fiction film, which we sometimes jokingly call Jihad in Jersey. That came out of my encounters on the streets of Patterson New Jersey with some Arab-American kids. The collision of street culture, which is in Slam, with this new world of religious fanaticism. A law enforcement character, who is a non-believer in any religion, gets caught in the middle of that.
by Daniel Robert Epstein
SG Username: AndersWolleck
VIEW 3 of 3 COMMENTS
knowthing:
Absolutely Brill! It's about time that someone is working on this issue. Fear is the darkness in a room with the lights turned off. Nice to see someone attempting to turn it on for those too lazy or too scared to turn it on for "dem-selves"! Too many of us have this issue way 2 twisted. Good going Marc!
holy_mountain:
Just watching the trailer for the film makes you sick from hearing what those people say.