part of a conversation i had today:
Alex:
your reasoning is a big part of why most christians annoy me
maybe not christians themselves, but what they are brought up to believe
Ace:
sigh
I'm sorry that it annoys you
I don't want to "bug" you about it.
All I really wanted to do was present to you perhaps why this issue isn't a closed case for me
Alex:
for example, a man is brought up christian and raised to believe homosexuality is a sin. but he is homosexual. he believes he's living a sin and so he goes against what he feels and marrys a woman. but he's living a lie.
aren't christians told lieing is a sin?
Ace:
yup
Alex:
so no matter what this man does he's sinning and either way he's going to be unhappy
Ace:
No matter what anyone does, it's sinning.
We can't avoid sin
It's human nature
what's important is not to focus on how much we sin
but what we can do to get back to a right relation with God
I would never tell a homosexual to just flippantly convert to heterosexuality
Alex:
but if it's going to be a sin either way, why should you not follow what your heart tells you and be able to love who ever you feel love for?
Ace:
that would be the opposite of delicate
Maybe he should
Only he knows how God wants him to act.
Sometimes God commands us to act in a way that seems unlawful but yet it is God's command
Alex:
that's why i'm so proud to be pagan
Ace:
But you are confusing Christianity with biblical teaching
Christianity is more than just biblical teaching
Alex:
and it harm none, do what thy wilt
Ace:
If you really care to see what I'm talking about then look up Soren Kierkegaard and the way he views faith as well as his spheres of existence. What it amounts to really is that CHristians are not some monolithic whole
That we each must have a relation to God that from the outside looks very different.
So in other words, I might drink and smoke pot but for some other CHristians doing such things would be sinful.
Alex:
i just see that as a bit hypocritical
Ace:
Being a Christian doesn't have to be so black and white. You can maintain that some things are relative without going into paganism.
Alex:
so you can do things that people in the church would think are a sin, but because you think it's ok, it's ok. how does that make sense?
Ace:
That's not what I meant.
It was a way of showing you how we each have different relations to God.
I don't mean that everything is relative, but that most things are.
The church is a very important communal aspect to CHristianity but it is not all there is.
As a Christian I maintain that God speaks to me as an individual and that as an individual he has plans for me whatever they may be. We each have our own hurdles.
For some, addiction may be a hurdle but for others it is not.
If for example, I don't have a problem with addiction then drinking a beer might not harm me the same way.
For someone who does, it may lead to tons of other harms like developing an addiction and hurting his family.
All sin has a practical consequence. Sin isn't just sin because God deemed it so in someway.
It is also naturally harmful to humans.
Alex:
then what is the practical consequence of homosexuality?
Ace:
First, you have to understand that homosexuality is still not black/white for me.
Someone who might struggle with it could use it as a way to relate to God negatively. For example, if I deal with it and I know it then I should fill up my life with actions that are celibate in nature. Homosexuality can be a huge distraction for some people. It can cause them to lead lives that don't focus on anything else like loving the poor and destitute for example. Instead the live day to day struggling with what they should do about their homosexuality. It is important to note that I think this also happens with heterosexuals and the way in which they are obsessed in our culture with sex.
Which is why the bible also speaks about fleeing from sexual sin period.
Alex:
but what if you have a normal functioning relationship and live a productive life, but you're gay? is it still a sin?
Ace:
It is still my belief from looking at the bible however that homosexuality is not akin to blasphemy like some evangelicals think
It might not be
But that would be up to God and not me
Alex:
how does that make any sense tho?!
Ace:
What about it doesn't make sense?
Alex:
oh it's a sin, but it's conditional! wtf?!
Ace:
As humans, we do not have the ability to look into someone else and tell what kind of relationship they have with God.
Sin is nothing more than a way of blocking the relationship to God.
Alex:
so it's only a sin if you feel it's a sin?
Ace:
If I can't look into someone else and see how this relation is shaped then I can't tell where their sins are.
Ace:
all i have is the ability to interpret their "fruits" or the practical consequences of their actions.
Alex:
i really believe homosexuality is only a sin to so many people, including a lot of gay people that are denying their true nature, because christianity says it. they made it a sin
Ace:
even this is not a perfect science
That is right in a sense
If you don't believe in God then there really shouldn't be any sense of "sin"
Since sin is really just defined by how you relate to God
Alex:
but then even if you aren't christian you still have the majority of the population to deal with with their views projected onto you
Ace:
It sucks that that's true but as a Christian I don't support Christian social ethics
I think it's bullshit that CHristians try to outlaw sins in the bible
In fact, arguing for having Christian laws hurts CHristianity more than anything else
Alex:
it just makes me so sad that i can't come out to everyone i know because i KNOW i will be judged negatively for being bisexual and pagan
only one person in my family knows. i have to hide who i really am to so many important people in my life because of THEIR christian views
Ace:
I'm sorry that things are that way. If I was in charge, they wouldn't be.
I don't think that what "Christians" have been fighting for in the past couple decades is really what God intended.
Alex:
it brings me to tears that i have had to hide this for almost 10 years now and people think i chose it
Ace:
If it helps you in any way, I've struggled with it before too.
But for me it was strictly because I was going through a time in life where I was still developing my sexual identity so it may not have been quite as deep.
Alex:
some people are like "i was just curious" and i had someone tell me that since it's been almost 4 years since i've been with a girl that i might not even be bisexual anymore. but i can look back on my WHOLE life and i KNOW i am bisexual
Ace:
I guess it depends on how you think a human is defined, by the sum of his actions in life or by his most recent actions.
Alex:
what do you mean?
Ace:
I don't buy the idea that a human is defined by either strictly what he thinks or what he does.
I think its both. So in a sense you aren't bisexual anymore but in another sense you are if you find yourself still attracted to girls.
Alex:
i definitely do and i am actively looking for a girl to be with.
Ace:
There are also different levels of attraction too. When you say you are "looking to be with", by "be with" do you mean in strictly a sexual sense for example or in a relational sense? I think there is bisexuality on a strictly physical level and bisexuality on another level.
Alex:
as of yet i have not found a girl i would date. but hetero's go thru that too so i don't think that means much. if i found the right girl i would date her.
Ace:
Well, there you go. I think you know what you are more than anyone else could.
Alex:
i just hate that even tho it's not a sin in my religion for me to love a girl, if i did i would never be able to bring her home and tell my parents because THEIR view of sin is in me
Ace:
I have to go do homework for the first time this weekend but just know that I support you in way's other Christians probably don't and I think that is very sad.
Alex:
thanks
Alex:
your reasoning is a big part of why most christians annoy me
maybe not christians themselves, but what they are brought up to believe
Ace:
sigh
I'm sorry that it annoys you
I don't want to "bug" you about it.
All I really wanted to do was present to you perhaps why this issue isn't a closed case for me
Alex:
for example, a man is brought up christian and raised to believe homosexuality is a sin. but he is homosexual. he believes he's living a sin and so he goes against what he feels and marrys a woman. but he's living a lie.
aren't christians told lieing is a sin?
Ace:
yup
Alex:
so no matter what this man does he's sinning and either way he's going to be unhappy
Ace:
No matter what anyone does, it's sinning.
We can't avoid sin
It's human nature
what's important is not to focus on how much we sin
but what we can do to get back to a right relation with God
I would never tell a homosexual to just flippantly convert to heterosexuality
Alex:
but if it's going to be a sin either way, why should you not follow what your heart tells you and be able to love who ever you feel love for?
Ace:
that would be the opposite of delicate
Maybe he should
Only he knows how God wants him to act.
Sometimes God commands us to act in a way that seems unlawful but yet it is God's command
Alex:
that's why i'm so proud to be pagan
Ace:
But you are confusing Christianity with biblical teaching
Christianity is more than just biblical teaching
Alex:
and it harm none, do what thy wilt
Ace:
If you really care to see what I'm talking about then look up Soren Kierkegaard and the way he views faith as well as his spheres of existence. What it amounts to really is that CHristians are not some monolithic whole
That we each must have a relation to God that from the outside looks very different.
So in other words, I might drink and smoke pot but for some other CHristians doing such things would be sinful.
Alex:
i just see that as a bit hypocritical
Ace:
Being a Christian doesn't have to be so black and white. You can maintain that some things are relative without going into paganism.
Alex:
so you can do things that people in the church would think are a sin, but because you think it's ok, it's ok. how does that make sense?
Ace:
That's not what I meant.
It was a way of showing you how we each have different relations to God.
I don't mean that everything is relative, but that most things are.
The church is a very important communal aspect to CHristianity but it is not all there is.
As a Christian I maintain that God speaks to me as an individual and that as an individual he has plans for me whatever they may be. We each have our own hurdles.
For some, addiction may be a hurdle but for others it is not.
If for example, I don't have a problem with addiction then drinking a beer might not harm me the same way.
For someone who does, it may lead to tons of other harms like developing an addiction and hurting his family.
All sin has a practical consequence. Sin isn't just sin because God deemed it so in someway.
It is also naturally harmful to humans.
Alex:
then what is the practical consequence of homosexuality?
Ace:
First, you have to understand that homosexuality is still not black/white for me.
Someone who might struggle with it could use it as a way to relate to God negatively. For example, if I deal with it and I know it then I should fill up my life with actions that are celibate in nature. Homosexuality can be a huge distraction for some people. It can cause them to lead lives that don't focus on anything else like loving the poor and destitute for example. Instead the live day to day struggling with what they should do about their homosexuality. It is important to note that I think this also happens with heterosexuals and the way in which they are obsessed in our culture with sex.
Which is why the bible also speaks about fleeing from sexual sin period.
Alex:
but what if you have a normal functioning relationship and live a productive life, but you're gay? is it still a sin?
Ace:
It is still my belief from looking at the bible however that homosexuality is not akin to blasphemy like some evangelicals think
It might not be
But that would be up to God and not me
Alex:
how does that make any sense tho?!
Ace:
What about it doesn't make sense?
Alex:
oh it's a sin, but it's conditional! wtf?!
Ace:
As humans, we do not have the ability to look into someone else and tell what kind of relationship they have with God.
Sin is nothing more than a way of blocking the relationship to God.
Alex:
so it's only a sin if you feel it's a sin?
Ace:
If I can't look into someone else and see how this relation is shaped then I can't tell where their sins are.
Ace:
all i have is the ability to interpret their "fruits" or the practical consequences of their actions.
Alex:
i really believe homosexuality is only a sin to so many people, including a lot of gay people that are denying their true nature, because christianity says it. they made it a sin
Ace:
even this is not a perfect science
That is right in a sense
If you don't believe in God then there really shouldn't be any sense of "sin"
Since sin is really just defined by how you relate to God
Alex:
but then even if you aren't christian you still have the majority of the population to deal with with their views projected onto you
Ace:
It sucks that that's true but as a Christian I don't support Christian social ethics
I think it's bullshit that CHristians try to outlaw sins in the bible
In fact, arguing for having Christian laws hurts CHristianity more than anything else
Alex:
it just makes me so sad that i can't come out to everyone i know because i KNOW i will be judged negatively for being bisexual and pagan
only one person in my family knows. i have to hide who i really am to so many important people in my life because of THEIR christian views
Ace:
I'm sorry that things are that way. If I was in charge, they wouldn't be.
I don't think that what "Christians" have been fighting for in the past couple decades is really what God intended.
Alex:
it brings me to tears that i have had to hide this for almost 10 years now and people think i chose it
Ace:
If it helps you in any way, I've struggled with it before too.
But for me it was strictly because I was going through a time in life where I was still developing my sexual identity so it may not have been quite as deep.
Alex:
some people are like "i was just curious" and i had someone tell me that since it's been almost 4 years since i've been with a girl that i might not even be bisexual anymore. but i can look back on my WHOLE life and i KNOW i am bisexual
Ace:
I guess it depends on how you think a human is defined, by the sum of his actions in life or by his most recent actions.
Alex:
what do you mean?
Ace:
I don't buy the idea that a human is defined by either strictly what he thinks or what he does.
I think its both. So in a sense you aren't bisexual anymore but in another sense you are if you find yourself still attracted to girls.
Alex:
i definitely do and i am actively looking for a girl to be with.
Ace:
There are also different levels of attraction too. When you say you are "looking to be with", by "be with" do you mean in strictly a sexual sense for example or in a relational sense? I think there is bisexuality on a strictly physical level and bisexuality on another level.
Alex:
as of yet i have not found a girl i would date. but hetero's go thru that too so i don't think that means much. if i found the right girl i would date her.
Ace:
Well, there you go. I think you know what you are more than anyone else could.
Alex:
i just hate that even tho it's not a sin in my religion for me to love a girl, if i did i would never be able to bring her home and tell my parents because THEIR view of sin is in me
Ace:
I have to go do homework for the first time this weekend but just know that I support you in way's other Christians probably don't and I think that is very sad.
Alex:
thanks
VIEW 4 of 4 COMMENTS
elisabethstar:
Yeah, this is a good example of why I stay away from organized religion. Too many crazy double-standards. Good luck with your girl search! 
alexcapone:
thanks